OIDS - improving, expanding, pls. test

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leech
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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby leech » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:44 pm

Yeah, this is pretty much the info I understood, that we'd need something that was re-programmable, and it wouldn't be cheap. Ha, if we were to go that route, may as well just do the same thing as CosmosEx and get drivers for things like the Steam Controller (would love to use that on my Falcon, especially since it really is meant for people with huge hands.)
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (fully upgraded (soon!))
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)

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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:58 pm

leech wrote:...
Of course this starts to go off topic here...Also not sure which games that'd use out of the box, and a lot of games didn't accept any sort of keyboard input, and were joystick only.

Thanx for control scheme. I will look to do it soon. I bought cheap ACME USB gamepad - it has 2 analog sticks, 4 direction keys, and 10 buttons. Steem recognizes it well, and can assign whatever where you want. So, I can play it little via it, and see the feeling. But also want to try to make ship rotation and acceleration/break with analog controls - so left/right for rotate, up for acceleration/break (maybe down should instead shields on turn ship 180 degrees, and activating thrust :D ). I think that OIDS is good candidate for analog control, and should be easier to do some accurate manoeuvres, especially in tight space.

It is irrelevant what input games accept. When you go on Jagpad support, you need to add reading of extended STE ports on proper places, and write proper values on locations which hold current control actions - like forward, left, fire .... In other words, you can add it for any input, possible even for mouse if someone wants that.

I think that I will write here some shorter article about whole problem of reassigning something on Atari ST. I talked about it a lot when Floppy Image Runner is released, why some games can not work with it. Practically it is same with Jagpad in principle.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:59 pm

I did JagPad support:
Basic hard disk version:
http://atari.8bitchip.info/TestMe/PRE5.ZIP
Haga version (good for Falcon) :
http://atari.8bitchip.info/TestMe/OIDSJP.ZIP

Improved fire too, for easier single shot.
JagPad, PowerPad buttons:
Hat - Thrust, rotation <>, shield on/off.
Fire A - Gun
Fire B - Novabomb
Fire C - Shield recharge
Pause - Pause on/off - but any button will unpause

Now, some longer explanation:
This game uses some more complex controls than simple fire button press, jump press and like. For instance Novabomb can be activated by releasing button in proper moment. That means that there must be detection of exact key/button release moment.
But TOS functions for reading keyboard, joystick have no functions to detect exact moment of release - not even moment of press. That's why it must have own, custom input reading code. And it is based on keyboard keys position in matrix, and not on letter - what may be Y or Z, depending on language. So, we don't have here any use of programmable keys for game. Actually, I plan to remove from this version all keyboard codes for controls possible to do with joystick and JagPad - they are pretty long, and just slow down without any use. What is possible is to make different layout for play control buttons, if above is not good. I tested only in Steem, with pretty different Gamepad. That is not so hard. Reading JagPad is not hard. What was hard is to inject JagPad commands in proper locations in code, in proper way. Especially Pause was problematic.
Part of problem is in fact that in Atari STE keyboard, joystick, mouse - so what goes via IKBD chip work on interrupt generation base - when some change happens - like pressing or releasing key, button - interrupt is generated, and SW can read code of action. JagPad is different - it is simple port, and you can only read it periodically in SW.
To add that you will see that JagPad does not work in Galaxy selection - while it is possible with joystick. Yes - because another code is used for it, and not what in gameplay. Don't see that it is worth to add there JagPad support too.
Let me know hot it works with real HW. Want any better layout ? - but without kb. remapping - just gimme function, and to which JagPad button to assign.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby leech » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:39 pm

That works awesomely. I think the only thing that still goes a little too fast is firing. But maybe I need to play the original game again, maybe it was always annoying to try to only fire one bullet. It's too bad that there isn't really a work around for the novabomb being fired at inopportune times due to whatever timing/detection method it tries to do (I just nuked two of the 'jails' accidentally because it decided to fire.)

My testing was on my Falcon, doesn't work in 060 mode (didn't expect it would, just figured I'd let everyone know). Funny enough, first time I ran it in 030 mode, I had told xboot not to load anything, so it was pretty much TOS with colour icons in 640x480 with nothing loaded, and the screen that shows the system info / and exit keys / trainer option let me hit a key to continue, then it showed a white screen with some black lines, then I hit a key and the game started fine. Then I tried again with holding down Control to skip everything, and it kind of skipped through everything on it's own and started the game up.

No big deal, but it definitely controls better with the JagPad than it does with a joystick! Bravo for the work!
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (fully upgraded (soon!))
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)

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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:20 am

I will rework completely fire. In JagPad v. will be no Novabomb fire with fire A - it has no sense, and just leads to troubles.
With joystick fire - manual says "Fire- push once for Nuclear Pellets. 'Double click' for NovaBombs" - but even with regular Oids on 8 Mhz ST it is very hard to fire Novabomb that way. So, I think that will use Timer C for that purpose. There should be accurate time window for double click, + accurate hold time, after which autorepeat starts.
Considering Falcon: it's best to run game from some ST compatible graphic mode. But even then may happen that after return to Desktop next game start will go with some problems. Like some specific HW registers went in some irregular state. Or may be just because of age of machines. Then best to perform cold reset.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: OIDS hard disk and floppy versions for test

Postby leech » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:02 am

I am excited for this! Maybe the thread title should be changed to OIDS Harddrive version w/JagPad support?

Definitely better to start ST games from an ST compatble video mode. I should track down a multimonitor switch so I don't have to keep swapping between TT/Falcon/STe.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (fully upgraded (soon!))
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)

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Re: OIDS - improving, expanding, pls. test

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:15 am

But it's not just harddrive v. what will have JagPad support. I will add floppy image too when it will be enough mature.
And JagPad is just one of features, so really no place for all it in title.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: OIDS - improving, expanding, pls. test

Postby leech » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:22 am

Ha, good point. And quick reply! Looking forward to testing more. Did just order a two port VGA switch, hopefully it still works with the STe.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (fully upgraded (soon!))
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)

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Re: OIDS - improving, expanding, pls. test

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:05 am

Did rework of fire control. Now is easy to fire single shot, to fire Novabomb with joystick. In JagPad v. can fire Nova only with it's button.
HAGA v. with org. and improved framerate:
http://atari.8bitchip.info/dwnld.php?get=OIDS.ZIP
Basic hard disk and floppy v. with improved framerate:
http://atari.8bitchip.info/TestMe/OIDMPRE4.ZIP

JagPad support versions:
Basic hard disk and floppy v. with improved framerate:
http://atari.8bitchip.info/TestMe/PRE5.ZIP
HAGA v. with improved framerate - Falcon c. :
http://atari.8bitchip.info/TestMe/OIDSJP.ZIP

JagPad, PowerPad buttons:
Hat - Thrust, rotation <>, shield on/off.
Fire A - Gun
Fire B - Novabomb
Fire C - Shield recharge
Pause - Pause on/off - but any button will unpause
2 - Temporary shield (normally left shift key)
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: OIDS - improving, expanding, pls. test

Postby krupkaj » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:06 am

the jagpad control scheme is awesome! Thank you for the patch

BTW could you add the jagpad support to the Thrust?

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Re: OIDS - improving, expanding, pls. test

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:40 pm

krupkaj wrote:the jagpad control scheme is awesome! Thank you for the patch
BTW could you add the jagpad support to the Thrust?

Thanx. I will go on it little later.

Currently working on support for analog controls in OIDS. Left-right is for rotation, Up is for thrust. It is possible to rotate, accelerate faster, more accurate. Here is how it looks:

https://youtu.be/hbKYGo8GDA4

It needs more work - I plan to limit rotation to 180 degrees in one joystick move, to add slowdown when pull joystick down - combined with fast rotation of 180 d. And, of course, calibration is mandatory.

Now, some will say why this, when no controllers for STE joy. port with analog paddles. Maybe some were made - I really don't know. There is only one game, for Falcon, what can be controlled with analog joy. - Moonspeeder, and only left-right. Acceleration is with fire button. So, this would be first game what utilizes both axes - X and Y :D
I used old PC analog joystick via simple adapter.

Btw. I think that there is some kind of analog like input on some kind of computer, what almost everyone owns now - smart phone and tablet PC :D
Touch screen can be used as analog input. So, maybe to add support for it in Hataroid. Will see ...
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: OIDS - improving, expanding, pls. test

Postby leech » Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:21 pm

Nice! First time in history, an Atari ST game will have full analog controller support! I think (if possible) the next trick would be to get all this working in Frontier: Elite II so it can be played properly. Curious, how many buttons can that port actually support on a controller?
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (fully upgraded (soon!))
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)

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Re: OIDS - improving, expanding, pls. test

Postby Atari030 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:16 pm

Oh man, I gotta try this out. Leech, nice idea on Frontier. Imagine Vroom 030?

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Re: OIDS - improving, expanding, pls. test

Postby leech » Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:44 am

So I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that for any other game to work like this, there would need to be some sort of input configuration. Pretty sure Frontier would let you.

Either way, this is epic.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (fully upgraded (soon!))
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)

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Re: OIDS - improving, expanding, pls. test

Postby leech » Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:49 am

This is perfect, just gave it a play. I do need to test on the original if the Novabomb decides to seemingly randomly blow up before it hits things. Stupid missile launching base killed me a few times before I could get close enough for the novabomb to hit it.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (fully upgraded (soon!))
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)

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Re: OIDS - improving, expanding, pls. test

Postby AtariZoll » Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:39 am

leech wrote:So I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that for any other game to work like this, there would need to be some sort of input configuration. Pretty sure Frontier would let you.
Either way, this is epic.


Yes, there should be input device selection, + calibration for analog paddle. But adding some new menu item may be pretty hard - sometimes just because no space on selection screen, + understanding code for it may take lot of time.
The plan is for now: finishing OIDS analog control v. (1.4) - what means some + features in steering self, and adding calibration somehow. That will take some days for sure. Then doing Vroom mod - analog joystick instead mouse - so will be no need for selection, but calibration is a must.
Don't see much sense to deal with other games, until there will be number of people able to use this analog mods.
Ah, I will mod original ST Vroom - it will be well playable on Falcon too via HAGA ( http://atari.8bitchip.info/SCRSH/vrooms.html .
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: OIDS - improving, expanding, pls. test

Postby Atari030 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:41 am

I'm on leave the next two weeks. I know what I'll be doing. Awesome!!

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Re: OIDS - improving, expanding, pls. test

Postby leech » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:50 pm

Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (fully upgraded (soon!))
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)


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