Editing a message

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dhedberg
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Re: Editing a message

Postby dhedberg » Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:43 am

Greenious wrote:*Edit* (now see what I did there) Now I do understand the argument of certain pinned threads, or first post in a thread, would benefit from being editeable. But how often is there really a need for that? Often enough to motivate everyone perpetual editing rights? Or seldom enough that it's a minor job mods can do for you when needed?

At this time I'm about to give up. Obviously this is going nowhere. Read through the thread. Plenty of people have given many reasons why at least the first post should be editable by the author, with no limitations (in time or number of edits).

Did anyone of you even pay attention to this:
https://www.phpbb.com/customise/db/exte ... tpostedit/

Considering the attitude among the admins/moderators I would never trust a moderator to update my post (if I reported it in order to change it).

I'm going to take a break from AF as well. This has left a bad taste in my mouth.
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Re: Editing a message

Postby ThorstenOtto » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:22 am

You should really think about whether that was worth it: changing a feature to prevent something that has never happened, ignoring the complaints, and as a result people leaving this forum. You have done a real disservice to the atari community.

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Re: Editing a message

Postby mikro » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:41 am

While I understand arguments of the other camp and can imagine that we may be a minority after all (although the poll doesn't indicate it for sure), the attitude shown here by AF administrators left a bad taste for me as well. We are like 20 active Atarians here and no, we are going to pretend we rule an empire which needs strict rules and punishments. Crazy.

I'm going to take a break, too. At least I'll free myself from threads about ScummVM and OpenTTD. :D

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Re: Editing a message

Postby Greenious » Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:58 am

While I do hope admins can find a way to allow editing, like shadowcopies or similar.

I personally feel this has grown out of proportion. There are not many other forums I'm visiting that allows people to edit their posts in perpetuity, and certainly not any forums of size.

And when we now close this feature, there's suddenly an outcry from ppl that claims this is a vital feature, and imply they use it every day.. which in itself is alarming on a forum that isn't supposed to be a wiki.

Anyway, I've always been a keen supporter of free speech, and that the written word is kept undistorted. But today this belief is certainly not widespread anymore. More and more I see how people from left and right demand anyhing slightly upsetting, even if historically true, be removed from their sight. I can certainly see the same people wanting to remove embarrasing comments showing that they sometimes are wrong (and certainly very human). Because the world has to be perfect, even if it isn't the reality.

So, what's so inherently bad with living with your flaws? It's not like they disappear just because you slap a coat of paint on it? And really, who cares about spelling so much that he seriously edits month old posts???
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Re: Editing a message

Postby Atarieterno » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:40 am

I believe that a person has the right to modify their writing for the reason they deem appropriate, not only for practical reasons, indication of "Sold", price modification, price elimination so as not to influence future sellers or buyers, grammar and spelling correction -Spanish is the second most spoken language in the world, but here we write in English and we don't all do it perfectly-, change of listings ... for any reason!
The issue is to limit freedom, close the field of action with a rule that very few see necessary because no problem has occurred before its imposition.
If it all comes down to "This is so and if you don't like it, you go somewhere else", at least we hope it is the clear response from the administrators on this issue, not the silence that despises us.
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Re: Editing a message

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:09 pm

I'm not upset about the change, but I do wish we could edit our posts. For example, I updated my Panther/2 thread from 5 years ago since I finally finished the project. Turns out all the linked pictures from 2014 were gone. So I updated them with local copies instead of an image hosting site. Wouldn't have been able to do that otherwise.

Anyway, this isn't wikipedia, it's a small Atari group and everyone knows most active users. What's the harm in letting us edit our posts? Now, if someone hacked an account and starting deleting posts, that would be bad. I think this 'shadow-copy' idea is a prudent one.

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Re: Editing a message

Postby ThorstenOtto » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:00 pm

Greenious wrote: And really, who cares about spelling so much that he seriously edits month old posts???


For me, i could life with that. Certainly i'm not going to edit month old messages just for typos. If additionaly, https://www.phpbb.com/customise/db/exte ... tpostedit/ had been implemented, i might even have accepted that change.

But the important point here is:
- The change was made without any notification. I (and obviously also others) take this as very disrepectful.
- The change was made without thinking about the consequences.
- The above mentioned extension was not even considered. Not even after we pointed to its existance.
- All complaints here have bluntly being ignored.
- The reason behind the change was very questionable.
- The results are catastrophic, up to the point that users are leaving the forum.
- And as if that was not enough, the admins don't even seem to care about that.

IMHO its the task of the admins to serve their users, not to cause them to leave. The list of active atari users here is quite small, and it does not take much to render this forum useless. If that is what was intended: job (almost) done. Congrats.

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Re: Editing a message

Postby mfro » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:10 pm

I can't help but seeing just childish stubbornness. On both sides.

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Re: Editing a message

Postby GokMasE » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:20 pm

ThorstenOtto wrote:
Greenious wrote: And really, who cares about spelling so much that he seriously edits month old posts???


For me, i could life with that. Certainly i'm not going to edit month old messages just for typos. If additionaly, https://www.phpbb.com/customise/db/exte ... tpostedit/ had been implemented, i might even have accepted that change.

But the important point here is:
- The change was made without any notification. I (and obviously also others) take this as very disrepectful.
- The change was made without thinking about the consequences.
- The above mentioned extension was not even considered. Not even after we pointed to its existance.
- All complaints here have bluntly being ignored.
- The reason behind the change was very questionable.
- The results are catastrophic, up to the point that users are leaving the forum.
- And as if that was not enough, the admins don't even seem to care about that.

IMHO its the task of the admins to serve their users, not to cause them to leave. The list of active atari users here is quite small, and it does not take much to render this forum useless. If that is what was intended: job (almost) done. Congrats.


+1

Am I right in thinking that none of the admins have even bothered to comment on Thorstens suggestion of adding the module for allowing editing of first post in thread?

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Re: Editing a message

Postby joska » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:25 pm

ThorstenOtto wrote:The list of active atari users here is quite small, and it does not take much to render this forum useless. If that is what was intended: job (almost) done. Congrats.


The Facebook groups has already taken care of that a long time ago, which is the main reason why my Atari activities has dropped significantly the last few years. A community like ours needs a "hub" like this forum used to be, now activity is scattered across countless FB groups and the sense of community is lost. And it's you ("you", as in "you users") who's responsible for this, not the Atariforum admins.
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Re: Editing a message

Postby Atarieterno » Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:16 pm

joska wrote:
ThorstenOtto wrote:The list of active atari users here is quite small, and it does not take much to render this forum useless. If that is what was intended: job (almost) done. Congrats.


The Facebook groups has already taken care of that a long time ago, which is the main reason why my Atari activities has dropped significantly the last few years. A community like ours needs a "hub" like this forum used to be, now activity is scattered across countless FB groups and the sense of community is lost. And it's you ("you", as in "you users") who's responsible for this, not the Atariforum admins.


Well, an elementary strategy would be to treat the few users that we follow in this forum well, instead of being considered preventive offenders or cattle that should be conducted with restrictive regulations.
I think that on Facebook you can edit the messages and the option and date of the last edition appears, as well as the modified content.
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Re: Editing a message

Postby joska » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:10 am

As a "news" feed Facebook works fine. But as a discussion forum it sucks immensely - no threads, no topic grouping, no quoting, search sucks, posts disappears, information gets lost... And yet the majority prefers it over proper discussion forums. Most people - Atarians included - never participated in debates or social media online prior to Facebook and just don't understand how much Facebook sucks. Or they just bends over and accept it because "everybody else" is doing it.

It is not just this forum, all forums are dying. Generally speaking, people that did not use forums before Facebook will never start using them. If they can't find a Facebook group that covers their interest they will rather create one than join a forum.

I find it strange that people threatens to leave the forum because of this feature change. But if it's more important to be able to edit history than having a usable forum then maybe Facebook is more their arena.

TheNameOfTheGame wrote:Anyway, this isn't wikipedia, it's a small Atari group and everyone knows most active users. What's the harm in letting us edit our posts?


There is usually no harm. But now and then some user gets offended by something and wipes out all his posts. I have seen this several times in other forums, none of these allows unlimited post editing anymore.
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Re: Editing a message

Postby Atarieterno » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:17 am

Some things are already clearing up, little by little. So:
1- The limitation has been made because in other forums they have had some problem that in this forum has not happened in all the years that we have been participating.
2- The wild card of all the rules of any forum is being proposed: if you do not like the imposition go to another place.
Great, we are "building bridges" for understanding.
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Re: Editing a message

Postby joska » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:21 pm

Not sure were you got that information from, but if you're referring to me then please note that I'm just a user on this forum and have no more influence on such decisions than anyone else. I also don't know anything about why this change was done.
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Re: Editing a message

Postby simonsunnyboy » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:08 pm

Regarding phpBB plugins and addons, not everyone of us mods/admins can upload and configure those. So you have to be patient for anyone being able to install such for any feedback.
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Re: Editing a message

Postby ThorstenOtto » Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:55 pm

Yes, that's understandable. When looking at the member list of the moderator team, i guess only those with "Site Admin" status can do that. But everybody else could say "yes" or "no".

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Re: Editing a message

Postby ThorstenOtto » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:11 am

Any news about this?

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Re: Editing a message

Postby 1024MAK » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:35 am

We apologise for introducing this change without informing you first. That is an oversight that we regret.

A few points and answers to questions and queries that have been raised:
  • Yes, some users here have already deliberately made a mess of threads by removing, deleting or significantly changing their posts. At present, we are unable to restore content that has been removed by a user in this way. The change was made to prevent any future abuse.
  • This is a large forum, and it will die if the workload on the moderators and administrators becomes too high. We can’t monitor each and every post, in each and every thread. The moderators and administrators work hard to keep spammers out, to keep an eye on troublemakers, to tidy and keep the forums in good order. To check new users and prevent banned users from rejoining under different user names. Behind the scenes we do a lot of work. We don’t get paid for this work. We do it in our spare time. For every minute we spend looking after the forum, we have lost some of our time for our hobby of using our Atari machines (or using emulators etc.). By no longer allowing older posts to be edited, it means we don’t have to worry about misuse being made of the editing facility to alter these posts.
  • The editing limit is currently six hours. The team is considering changing this time limit. This is significantly longer than the editing time used on some other forums where you only get one hour to edit your latest post.
  • Please don’t confuse the differences between moderators and administrators. Only high level administrators have the power to add phpBB extensions.
  • Before adding any phpBB extensions, the administrator(s) have to check for compatibility and how it will affect future updating of the forum software. This is especially true for third party extensions. Adding too many, or having too many custom functions or features makes updating a nightmare. The administrator(s) have to update the forum software to keep it safe and secure for security reasons.
  • Using the report button alerts the moderators and administrators to that post or thread. It does not give them any more editing rights over and above the editing rights that they already have.
  • This forum is not a democracy. Ultimately the person that makes the final decision is the site owner. They delegate responsibility for the day to day running to the administrators and moderators. The administrators and moderators always welcome constructive debate even if it includes constructive criticism. We do listen. Just because we do not respond immediately does not mean that we have not read your comments.

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Re: Editing a message

Postby ThorstenOtto » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:19 pm

First off, thanks for your statements.

I do understand that working on such a forum takes your spare time, but i'm still very disappointed that it took more than 3 weeks for someone to come up with an answer.

This is a large forum, and it will die if the workload on the moderators and administrators becomes too high


But it will also die if too many long-time, knowledgable users leave this forum, and noone will be able to answer questions anymore. And that has already happened as a result of your change.

This forum is not a democracy. Ultimately the person that makes the final decision is the site owner


I understand that, too. Still he should listen to the audience, before making bad decisions.


Please don’t confuse the differences between moderators and administrators.


I'm not confused about this, but it's just not totally clear (at least not to me) who would actually be able to do such changes as installing extensions. BTW, if you need help in that matter, i can offer that. I've done such changes already in the past (although it's been some time ago.)


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