The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

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Los FPGA, emulators and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Poll ended at Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:00 pm

NO. A forum that assumes Atari theme should not have the first 5 messages (the presentation) with this.
20
47%
YES.
23
53%
 
Total votes: 43

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The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby Atarieterno » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:00 pm

The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?
Although some users are multi-platform, in my opinion to forum that assumes the Atari theme should not have the first 5 messages (which are the presentation of the forum) occupied by FPGA, emulators and especially non-Atari cores. But my opinion is personal, for that reason it is very interesting to know the one about you and to understand what present and possible future we can have the users of Atari that we are interested in Atari.
Thank you for your attention and please: vote freely and with sincerity.

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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby BlankVector » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:32 pm

I must agree with you. Even if that FPGA stuff is interesting, it is completely unrelated to Atari machines or operating systems. That is particularly visible in "Active topics", where we mainly expect to find Atari stuff.
That's just my opinion, anyway.
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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby Atarieterno » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:36 pm

BlankVector wrote:I must agree with you. Even if that FPGA stuff is interesting, it is completely unrelated to Atari machines or operating systems. That is particularly visible in "Active topics", where we mainly expect to find Atari stuff.
That's just my opinion, anyway.


Thank you very much. :cheers:
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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:27 pm

I don't mind them. Open Source FPGAs are important preservation platforms for all things Atari, as eventually there won't anymore be original spare parts left, or they're at least very hard to acquire.

They could also provide new members to the Atari community. Without new members community will just dwindle out.

However, FPGA systems don't seem to survive without additional users from other platforms than Atari, and there's still a lot to do to get them accurate enough to run things like demos.

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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby Atarieterno » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:41 pm

Eero Tamminen wrote:I don't mind them. Open Source FPGAs are important preservation platforms for all things Atari, as eventually there won't anymore be original spare parts left, or they're at least very hard to acquire.

They could also provide new members to the Atari community. Without new members community will just dwindle out.

However, FPGA systems don't seem to survive without additional users from other platforms than Atari, and there's still a lot to do to get them accurate enough to run things like demos.


Nobody denies its existence, I'm just proposing that those should not occupy the first 5 topics that make up the presentation of a forum "Atari."

I do not agree with you: a "retro" or "multiplatform" forum should not be called "Atari-forum", especially when it has more activity with non-Atari cores than with Atari systems.
The existence of Atari does not depend on FPGAs, as sex does not depend on a pornographic film: Atari are the machines that exist and the community of users that still use them, preserve them or collect them. The Atari clones also deserve that category, but the emulators and multicore FPGAs are very distant relatives and do not deserve the main role of an Atari forum.
If the activity of an Atari forum is subordinated to non-Atari cores, FPGA and emulator ... it is no longer Atari and we should sincerely ask ourselves what is being done. A monthly post that talks about ST is better than 50 posts a day on MiSTer with Amiga core, that's my opinion.

Anyway, we all fit here, but the Atari machines and their software deserve all the prominence, the substitutes do not represent Atari and a forum is measured by its contents and not by index of audience or activity (we could also talk about football, politics or of tobacco).

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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:21 pm

The existence of Atari does not depend on FPGAs


What is Atari? It's both HW and SW because without both, there's no point in either of them.

If clone, emulator, FPGA, or whatever can still run Atari SW, in my books it's still "Atari".

The Atari clones also deserve that category, but the emulators and multicore FPGAs are very distant relatives and do not deserve the main role of an Atari forum.


Without emulators, I don't think there wouldn't be much new SW done for the original HW. Many of the people still writing SW for Atari use an emulator for large part of the development, they do just final testing on real HW.

(Debugging is easier with emulators, they're faster, and ST & STE emulation is nowadays accurate enough for about everything. Real HW is fragile and takes extra desk space.)

Emulators also advance the knowledge about the HW. Notable part of emulator development is research into how the HW details work (specifically written tests run on real HW etc).


If the activity of an Atari forum is subordinated to non-Atari cores, FPGA and emulator ... it is no longer Atari and we should sincerely ask ourselves what is being done.


If by FPGA & emulator you mean something that cannot run Atari SW, then I agree with you.

But if it can run Atari SW, and has potential to do better in that respect, I think it's still "Atari". My argument is that these new "Ataris" need the other cores to survive in the long run.

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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby mfro » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:35 pm

Personally, I don't care (and consequently, abstain from voting). I just don't read what I'm not interested in.

If you want more interesting Atari topics on top, there are basically two options:

  • go ahead and write them (best option, IMHO)
  • phpbb can suppress posts from appearing on the active topics list (can be activated by forum)

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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby BlankVector » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:01 pm

Atari ST emulators (Hatari, Steem, ARAnyM...) and FPGA clones (Suska, FireBee, Atari ST core for MiST) are totally legitimate here, as that's Atari-compatible stuff. But IMHO, non-Atari cores for MiST are out of topic here.
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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby christos » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:32 pm

I agree. I even posted something silly on an emutos question because i didnt notice it was for fpga. I like reading about fpga atari but not so much about other cores.
If phpbb can supress subforums from appearing on the active list that would be great.
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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby Atarieterno » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:24 am

Eero Tamminen wrote: Without emulators, I don't think there wouldn't be much new SW done for the original HW. Many of the people still writing SW for Atari use an emulator for large part of the development, they do just final testing on real HW.

(Debugging is easier with emulators, they're faster, and ST & STE emulation is nowadays accurate enough for about everything. Real HW is fragile and takes extra desk space.)

Emulators also advance the knowledge about the HW. Notable part of emulator development is research into how the HW details work (specifically written tests run on real HW etc).

My argument is that these new "Ataris" need the other cores to survive in the long run.



This is an argument, nothing more, a healthy dialogue between users of the forum (excuse the coldness of the written word and my poor knowledge of the English language).

The programmers have always considered them as our "big brothers", they are a type of high level users, necessary for the Atari scene and able to help other specialties; but its use of emulation to work with greater speed is not the problem that we are naming. Maybe many programs are being created and the programming post is boiling? No. Other themes are emulated, and of course Amiga has nothing justifiable in the alleged Atari emulation, nor other cores.

Atari does not need other cores to survive, Atari only needs hers. Maybe the vendors need other cores, or the multiplatform users need other cores, but Atari does not need other cores like basketball does not need baseball. If so necessary is an Amiga core: why do not you dedicate yourself in the Amiga forums which would be your most logical place? Anyway, I insist: I do not ask that it be eliminated, I propose that it does not occupy the post holders or principals.
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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby Atarieterno » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:49 am

mfro wrote:Personally, I don't care (and consequently, abstain from voting). I just don't read what I'm not interested in.

If you want more interesting Atari topics on top, there are basically two options:

  • go ahead and write them (best option, IMHO)
  • phpbb can suppress posts from appearing on the active topics list (can be activated by forum)



Thanks for answering.

I respect your option not to vote, but it's not my style, I consider it more typical of politicians who look the other way and expect issues to resolve themselves.

Your two basic options are not very good:
1- I can write to the rhythm of my own experiences: a device failure and how to solve it, share a manual or a program, ask for help, etc; But I will not write to fill in with spam, or answer the same topic with a single sentence as if it were a chat.
2 - Block users or topics that are not of my interest does not solve anything, it is like sweeping and hiding the garbage under the carpet.

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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby mfro » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:23 am

Atarieterno wrote:I respect your option not to vote, but it's not my style, I consider it more typical of politicians who look the other way and expect issues to resolve themselves.

Umm. No. In my opinion, there is no issue. I'm not interested in 'non-Atari FPGA posts' as well but have no problems to just not read them, then.

What you appear to target at is - IMHO - a restriction in freedom of speech.

As it is, it is my decision what I read and what not. If you prohibit such posts, it will be the moderator's decision. No improvement in my opinion, not for the moderators and not for me. This is what led me now to vote with 'YES' although I still do not care ;)

Am I interested in what Atari might have appeared (or not) in a (very) bad movie about drinking beer (or whatever)? No, I'm definitely not, but I do not complain.
Am I interested in any Kiddie's first attempts to correctly throw together a few lines of Basic? No, I'm not (even if it is Atari-related), but everybody needs to start somewhere.
Do I want to read about an improved Amiga core that fixes a bug in the m68k TG68 part? Yes, I definitely do, since I own a MiST (using only Atari cores) that might benefit from the same fix.
Do I want to read about a - whatever - core for the MiST that improves the speed of the MiST's memory controller? Yes, I do for the same reasons.

And I don't want to have moderators decide that for me.
Last edited by mfro on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby metalages » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:52 am

Let's be opened to new stuffs. As said, Atari ecosystem is both hardware and software. Personally I use both emulators and real ste. I think we would not have so great things released in the recent years without emulators. I vote for freedom.

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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:46 am

As to multiplatform support and the "future Atari HW platforms" (emulators, FPGAs)...

Atari machines use several HW components that are common between different platforms.

This is an advantage with open source emulators and FPGAs, because they can use code from other platforms. For example:
  • Amiga and Atari use the same CPUs & FPUs. Hatari shares emulation code for them with the WinAUE Amiga emulator. I.e. the "main maintainer" currently for Hatari CPU cores is actually Amiga emulator maintainer (while CPU emulation is the most important part, emulation for things like DSP, peripherals etc is all together more code)
  • IDE is same for Atari and PCs. Hatari IDE code came from Qemu emulator
  • Hatari MMU emulation code comes originally for Previous, the NeXT emulator
  • MiST also has contributions from multiple places: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-boar ... triButions

I would assume there are also potential for co-operation in Atari HW & peripheral development, not just with emulators & FPGAs. There are so few developers still doing Atari HW, SW, FPGA or emulation work, that all co-operations with other platforms should be more than welcome.

The things that I don't personally care for are:
* Components in other platforms that would have no use with real Atari HW, FPGAs or emulators
* Closed source components for those other platforms

All the rest is interesting from the Atari perspective.

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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby joska » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:16 am

It reflects the way the Atari community is going. Personally I find this forum less and less interesting because of this.

Unfortunately we have done this to ourselves - more and more Atari-related discussions are moved to the absolutely FU**ING USELESS Facebook groups, which is something that has IMO destroyed the sense of community we had. Why 2464254 different Facebook-groups? It doesn't do our community any good at all.
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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby lp » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:11 am

I filter content at my end. Forced another yes vote.

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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby Atarieterno » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:07 pm

mfro wrote:
Atarieterno wrote:I respect your option not to vote, but it's not my style, I consider it more typical of politicians who look the other way and expect issues to resolve themselves.

Umm. No. In my opinion, there is no issue. I'm not interested in 'non-Atari FPGA posts' as well but have no problems to just not read them, then.

What you appear to target at is - IMHO - a restriction in freedom of speech.

As it is, it is my decision what I read and what not. If you prohibit such posts, it will be the moderator's decision. No improvement in my opinion, not for the moderators and not for me. This is what led me now to vote with 'YES' although I still do not care ;)

Am I interested in what Atari might have appeared (or not) in a (very) bad movie about drinking beer (or whatever)? No, I'm definitely not, but I do not complain.
Am I interested in any Kiddie's first attempts to correctly throw together a few lines of Basic? No, I'm not (even if it is Atari-related), but everybody needs to start somewhere.
Do I want to read about an improved Amiga core that fixes a bug in the m68k TG68 part? Yes, I definitely do, since I own a MiST (using only Atari cores) that might benefit from the same fix.
Do I want to read about a - whatever - core for the MiST that improves the speed of the MiST's memory controller? Yes, I do for the same reasons.

And I don't want to have moderators decide that for me.


*********************

Arguing is fine, using demagogy and victimhood is something out of place.

Where is freedom of expression limited? I do not propose to limit it, I only ask for a logical order, your freedom of expression is still valid, only it does not occupy the presentation of an Atari forum with Amiga core messages in a modern machine. You still have your own subforum to express yourself freely until the end of time.

Freedom does not have to be demonstrated with endophobia or surrender, my freedom of expression and opinion is as valid as yours: please, do not accuse me of anything.

Some problem does exist, because in the last 3 years I have witnessed how 4 Atari gurus have left forever, and you can not blame Facebook for it. In the Facebook groups, the logical order is fulfilled: a group of TT talks about TT, a group Mega STe talks about Mega STe, and so on and so on. Only here we are discussing that a forum of cars can have as a presentation (the 5 initial messages of the forum) the thread about bicycles.

This will serve to inform how things are, nothing more, and I have not asked directly to the moderators: they are the owners of the forum and I can only accept their style or withdraw, but I also have freedom of expression to express my opinion (al less for now).

I am visiting other forums of Amiga to see if Atari occupies its first positions, but curiously there not use your concept of "freedom of expression" that you use demagogically.

And you're not talking about what you or I like either: if a comment about a movie where an Atari comes out in several frames or a new user who does not know how to program seems boring, both are within the Atari theme. Perhaps the threads of programming are equally boring for the users musicians, or those who only use video games, but they are still Atari thematic and are in the Atari forum.

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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby calimero » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:48 pm

I really dislike to see first 5 RECENT TOPICS polluted with FPGA stuff.

I occasionally open atari-forum.com just to see 5 recent topic and almost always I see 5 topics about FPGA in "recent topics". And I am not interested in FPGA at all.

There is no need to prohibit anything, just move this FPGA topics to complete another forum :D


Thanks Atarieterno for opening this topic. I also like joska find this forum less and less interesting.

btw who are 4 Atari gurus have left forever?
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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby Arne » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:43 pm

calimero wrote:I really dislike to see first 5 RECENT TOPICS polluted with FPGA stuff.

I occasionally open atari-forum.com just to see 5 recent topic and almost always I see 5 topics about FPGA in "recent topics". And I am not interested in FPGA at all.

There is no need to prohibit anything, just move this FPGA topics to complete another forum :D


Thanks Atarieterno for opening this topic. I also like joska find this forum less and less interesting.

btw who are 4 Atari gurus have left forever?


I hear you... :cry:
You get my vote.
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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby joska » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:02 pm

Atarieterno wrote:In the Facebook groups, the logical order is fulfilled: a group of TT talks about TT, a group Mega STe talks about Mega STe, and so on and so on.


...with crossposting between several similar groups, e.g. the three different ST/STE-groups and atleast two TT-groups where atleast one is private because the creator was kicked out of the public one. The same questions are posted both on a couple of FB-groups and here (or atariage), with the discussion going in different directions on each forum/group. Person A replies to a question without knowing that person B has already answered because person B has blocked person A from seeing all of person B's posts and all replies to their posts because person B got offended by person A two years ago. And the really amazing thing about Facebook - impossible to quote, impossible to see who's answered who, posts disappears from view according to the whims of the facebook algorithms, impossible to search...

I have left the facebook groups today, just too frustrating to deal with.

atari-forum has been the "place to go" for Atari-stuff for years, but not anymore. There is currently no central place for Atari users. This is really sad, and I must say that my motivation to work with and use my Ataris has been declining rapidly the last couple of years due to this. There is no sense of community anymore, which is the #1 motivation for people to contribute.

The real problem is not that there are too many or too active emulation/FGPA/Amigacore posts, but too few posts about the real stuff.
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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby 1024MAK » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:39 pm

I gave up on Facebook many years ago. As said above, trying to find stuff is a nightmare. Not only that, but trying to moderate Facebook groups is a lot harder than moderating a forum. The software that this forum uses (phpBB) makes moderation a lot easier than trying to moderate Facebook groups.

I also don't have the time, or the will to try to keep up with Facebook groups.

For Atari activities, I only use this forum and sometimes the Atari Age forums.

It is a bit annoying that a lot of the activity here is not Atari centric.

As I said on another thread here:

I wrote:With FPGA type systems, they kind of fall into a big grey area. As they don't fully fit into any forum for 1980s or 1990s computers. But most were developed based on the core hardware of a real 1980s or 1990s computer.

A FPGA is not an emulator. The logic gates in the FPGA chip are just configured electronically at the power up of the chip. They are an evolution and development of EPROMs, SRAM and PAL/GAL programmable logic chips.

Remember, in the prototype Atari ST, Atari used lots and lots of glue logic chips to create the functions that were later provided by custom Atari chips. If Atari existed today, and were developing a ST computer system, rather than using lots and lots of glue logic chips, they would use FPGA chips. Then from the logic design data, they would produce custom Atari chips (assuming that they were intending to sell them as a mass market system).

Where they should fit in a computer forum, well in their own area, at least. Same as emulators should have their own area.

Beyond that, I don't know...


Now, I don't know if it is possible, but maybe it is something that maybe the developers of the phpBB software can look at introducing in the future. What am I on about? My idea is to have multiple 'Active topics" pages. Here there would be one for original Atari ST and related hardware/software, one for FPGA systems, one for emulators, one for other systems and one for the off-topic discussion threads. Then each member could choose which 'Active topics" page the site uses when they log-in.

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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby Atarieterno » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:47 pm

joska wrote:
Atarieterno wrote:In the Facebook groups, the logical order is fulfilled: a group of TT talks about TT, a group Mega STe talks about Mega STe, and so on and so on.


...with crossposting between several similar groups, e.g. the three different ST/STE-groups and atleast two TT-groups where atleast one is private because the creator was kicked out of the public one. The same questions are posted both on a couple of FB-groups and here (or atariage), with the discussion going in different directions on each forum/group. Person A replies to a question without knowing that person B has already answered because person B has blocked person A from seeing all of person B's posts and all replies to their posts because person B got offended by person A two years ago. And the really amazing thing about Facebook - impossible to quote, impossible to see who's answered who, posts disappears from view according to the whims of the facebook algorithms, impossible to search...

I have left the facebook groups today, just too frustrating to deal with.

atari-forum has been the "place to go" for Atari-stuff for years, but not anymore. There is currently no central place for Atari users. This is really sad, and I must say that my motivation to work with and use my Ataris has been declining rapidly the last couple of years due to this. There is no sense of community anymore, which is the #1 motivation for people to contribute.

The real problem is not that there are too many or too active emulation/FGPA/Amigacore posts, but too few posts about the real stuff.



Dear Joska;
Your words sadden me, and you're right in almost everything you argue.
Facebook groups are not very different from this forum, in both people interact with their feelings, ideals or interests; A "social network" perfectly defines society, a society unable to reach any agreement in any of its activities and the Atari scene can not be an exception. This is how people are, it has always been that way and it will always be like this: now we are less and it shows more.

Do not give up or lose the illusion, because Atari are not FPGAs or cores or emulations: Atari is you and all the generation of people who keep our machines alive. When we are very old or die: nobody will have an interest in Atari, no FPGA will be part of the legend and nobody will pay a penny for our machines.

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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby wongck » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:51 pm

Why is there a need to have FB group just talking about TT or Falcon or MSTE ??
There are already sub-forums for those machine.
Other than anti social jerks who wants to have the power to select their own members; there is no real reason.
And comes running back here to make the same posting? LOL.... why leave in the first place. Dumb.
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wongck
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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby wongck » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:57 pm

1024MAK wrote:Now, I don't know if it is possible, but maybe it is something that maybe the developers of the phpBB software can look at introducing in the future. What am I on about? My idea is to have multiple 'Active topics" pages. Here there would be one for original Atari ST and related hardware/software, one for FPGA systems, one for emulators, one for other systems and one for the off-topic discussion threads. Then each member could choose which 'Active topics" page the site uses when they log-in.

Mark


Why do that, they can always go create their own FB group.
Or create their own Forum. I see lots of people leaving here and doing that as well.

And I feel that they should.
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Atarieterno
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Re: The FPGA and non-Atari cores deserve the cover of this forum?

Postby Atarieterno » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:58 pm

1024MAK wrote:Now, I don't know if it is possible, but maybe it is something that maybe the developers of the phpBB software can look at introducing in the future. What am I on about? My idea is to have multiple 'Active topics" pages. Here there would be one for original Atari ST and related hardware/software, one for FPGA systems, one for emulators, one for other systems and one for the off-topic discussion threads. Then each member could choose which 'Active topics" page the site uses when they log-in.

Mark



That is one of the most logical and coherent things that I have read in this thematic thread.

Anyway, we must wait at the end of the vote to consider whether people really appreciate Atari or want a forum dominated by MiSTer with core Amiga and similar things. Perhaps the "classic" users of Atari are a dispensable minority and we have to welcome "FPGA-forum" or "MiSTer with Amiga core - forum".
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