What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

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What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby 1st1 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:26 pm

Hello, atariforge.org is dead since a few days. So also all sub-pages are also not reachable without knowing the ip adresses. This is sad.

But the good news, http://www.dev-docs.org/ works for this ex sup page.
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby LynXX » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:18 pm

That's great! I'm glad to see it back! Thanks to the people behind this mirror! :cheers:

However, while I really applaud the effort, part of me wonder if that's the best approach. Now we have 2 versions of the dev-docs (this one, + http://dev-docs.exxoshost.co.uk/), soon to be 3 when atariforge.org comes back on line (soon I hope!).

How do we know which one is the most up to date? Will they start differing now and have different content as new docs get added individually to each over time?

I was actually thinking of doing the same thing for the Atari Wiki that has been broken since a while: Mirror it somewhere (Content can be retrieved via the API), but I didn't want to be in this situation where we would have had 2 wikis with differing content (if we were to open the "new" one to new contributions)...

I'm not sure that's a big deal, of what a good solution could be, but that feels a bit concerning to me on the long run. Am I the only one feeling this way? :wink:

It feels to me all of this could benefit from a more "open" approach, where the content would be centrally managed perhaps using open source systems (GitHub or something?) with multiple people having access and able to contribute things. Currently most of these systems rely on the hard work of single individuals (which I commend!), but it doesn't seem like it can scale well on the long term...

It would be a shame to definitely lose these excellent resources because the people behind them moved away (which is fair enough, I myself have my share of abandoned projects :wink: ). This is perhaps an opportunity to hear other's people opinion on this topic?

Cheers,

Nico

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby czietz » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:30 pm

Nico,

dev-docs.org is not a third-party mirror, like Exxos' one -- which is indeed a bit outdated. Instead, dev-docs.org is maintained by Lonny Pursell himself. So I'd consider it the "official" site now. Only Lonny can answer what he plans to do with dev-docs.atariforge.org, should it come up again. Redirect to the new site? Keep both sites synchronized?

I also don't see any risk of the contents diverging on the different versions of the site. New documents only get added to the main site, mirrors at worst are outdated. But you'll never have the situation that file A is only on dev-docs.org while file B is only on dev-docs.exxoshost.co.uk.

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby LynXX » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:10 pm

Ah that's a relief, I'm glad to hear that! Thanks for clarifying it for me. That solves my immediate concern of things getting out of sync.

There's still the broader point of ensuring these sites and resources perdure over time when their maintainer lose interest of life gets in the way. Perhaps it's just a matter of convincing every maintainer to "go open source" then...

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby EmpireAndrew » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:15 pm

I'm producing my own site with content drawn from all these sites as I'm concerned there's too much all eggs in one basket going on.
So a more central approach would be even worse, despite the convenience being attractive.

But my site is a long way off given I'm writing my own CMS to power it but at least I've leeched a lot of content off several big Atari sites in readiness so if these sites do disappear I have a lot of it on my NAS here.

Assuming I even get it finished that is, I don't know where the time goes these days...
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby EmpireAndrew » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:20 pm

As an aside, if people really want to ensure materials are not lost, archive.org is your friend.
I got a lot of Atari stuff from there and have a small pile of "missing" magazine issues I bought off ebay for the purposes of scanning to fill in the blanks.
I'll put them on my own site, and archive.org, and presumably the other Atari sites will copy them off and put them on theirs too. Hopefully...
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby lp » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:32 am

I can't thank Rob enough for hosting dev-docs at dev-docs.atariforge.org, however do to the location, weather, and the like it goes down way to often. I assume Rob will eventually fix the server issue (storm related), when I don't know. If he does get it back online the old url will be removed. http://www.dev-docs.org/ should be considered the new official url.

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby LynXX » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:40 am

So a more central approach would be even worse, despite the convenience being attractive.


I think I actually see it as the opposite ;)

  • Decentralized in management, as multiple people would have access and would be able to assist / fix issues if something goes wrong. For example in GitHub projects multiple people can have full administrative rights on the repository, and/or have access to deploy things in "production"
  • Actually decentralized in storage in practice: It may look like centralized if we put the content on GitHub or something like Amazon S3, but it's actually far more decentralized and reliable than having a single server managed by a single person, subject to hosting issues and life getting in the way

Archive.org is a good suggestion, I thought of it too, the problem is that it doesn't really offer a "nice" interface, it's just for storing stuff. Perhaps there's a middle ground with things stored in Archive.org, but with nice, separate sites just pointing to the right files in Archive.org (but providing additional features like search, comments, etc.)

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby EmpireAndrew » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:39 am

Yeah the latter sounds like a good idea...
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby lp » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:21 pm

*
Last edited by lp on Sat May 05, 2018 5:27 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby EmpireAndrew » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:38 pm

My take on mirrors is thus:

They should make it clear they are a mirror, and a link should be placed to the original site.

As far as permission goes, if people do the above, I'm not big on needing permission, but that said if you mirror the site literally, as in the html and any original text (original articles etc) then you're in breach of copyright if you don't at least do the above.

As for other content, scanned docs etc, well, the person who scanned them and put them online doesn't own the copyright to them (no matter if they plaster them with stupid copyright watermarks or not) so I would (and have) grabbed that stuff and will host it myself in case it ever goes missing.


As for any other politics, I don't really care, it's between two people as far as I'm concerned.

In terms of you maintaining backups that's great, but of course it doesn't help if you god forbid get hit by a bus and your hosting bill doesn't get paid and your local backups get thrown away or sold with your estate.

Hence mirrors are a good idea, but as I said at the beginning, they should make it clear they are a mirror and link back to the original, that's just good netiquette.
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby troed » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:44 pm

lp wrote:unauthorized mirror


lp wrote:whining like a baby.


The only baby I see whining here is you. Could you please list in detail where you believe there needs to be authorization - and please make sure to detail it in reference to actual copyright (which can be had on content, but not on simple collections of such content).

Besides that whining about authorization, which is just really silly, I would agree that someone who mirrors a page should point out where to find the original. But that fault is no reason to post such drivel as you just did here.

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby lp » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:04 pm

.
Last edited by lp on Sat May 05, 2018 5:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby GokMasE » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:55 pm

IMO the whole concept of a mirror site is that the actual webmaster/originator agrees to having his contents mirrored.
Clearly involving links both ways. Otherwise it is just a matter of someone copying someone else's work.
A mirror should be an alternative URL that the webmaster *WANTS* to have available to make his contents available in case his own host is seeing downtime, nothing else.

Since the actual dev-documents are free to download for all, no one can of course claim they are the only one that can host them for download.
However, to mimic an entire website without permission is clearly taking things way too far as I see it.

It is absolutely nothing silly about demanding common decency when it comes to respecting commitments and efforts ultimately made serve people on the platform.
Personally, I think the remaining platform is much too small for us not to respect each other and our respectively projects.

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby joska » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:44 pm

troed wrote:The only baby I see whining here is you. Could you please list in detail where you believe there needs to be authorization - and please make sure to detail it in reference to actual copyright (which can be had on content, but not on simple collections of such content).


I'm with Lonny - I was not aware of exxos' copy of the dev-docs site until I read this thread last night, and had a look at it before exxos took it down. It was a pure copy of Lonnys site - Lonnys HTML, Lonnys work, even Lonnys pages on his own work on graphics formats and zView plugins. No clue anywhere that this was not Lonny's site, no mention of this being a mirror or copy of any sort. In fact, to someone not familiar with these pages it would look like this was exxos' work.

Of course the documents uploaded to this site are not Lonnys - but the site pages are for sure. Making a copy of this available to the public without the author's permission is - as Lonny so elegantly put it - being a dick.
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby lp » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:54 pm

.
Last edited by lp on Sat May 05, 2018 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby wongck » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:31 pm

I think these people are just trying to save information in case the original goes missing.
So they may think themselves as doing a good deed for the community.
But of course just a PM to ask if it is OK to do so is just common decency.

Well, just by googling I found that my web site has been mirror by 2 different person.
Both have no decency to ask me for permission, even my pages states "see you in AF" as I am nearly here daily.
In any case both are older, and one partially but the other one even has my programs that I did over the years.
And no where it states it is a mirror or copy. There are people here linking my stuff to that mirror site as well :roll:
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby ijor » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:45 pm

Let's not take things out of proportions, please.

I agree that authorization should be asked for mirroring, and certainly credit should be given. But no need to call it names.

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby joska » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:36 pm

Before exxos removes it, here's his statement on this issue:

SITE GONE SORRY!

I hosted this mirror as the original dev-docs site was going offline for days or weeks at a time for a year.
I never made my copy official, but people found the mirror and used it and were appreciative as the original site appeared to be gone for good.

I had re-linked my pages to my own mirror as I used a lot of links to the now lost devdocs site as a lot of my pages were just a mess.
Since then the original site has come back and I wasn't going to undo my work and thought it would make more sense to keep my mirror updated.

I asked Lonny if he would consider uploading to my server to keep my copy updated. He wasn't interested and said "I am on my own if I want to do a mirror".
So I wrote a script to keep my copy updated which seemed to work fine firstly. It had only been active for a few hours but seemed to be working fine.

I then realised I did not have the search scripts, so I asked Lonny if he could help out or give some information on how it works, but no go there either he "didn't want to support it".
So I wrote my own search script the best I could, and I also added the site was a mirror to prevent confusion. Site seemed to be working fine at that point.

I since got a rather insulting email from Lonny..

Could you remove the broken mirror or at the very least modify the site so it states that its a mirror with a link to the original?
I agree with Mikro the site is confusing to visitors. The contact page is broken, yet you managed to clone the latest credits page. The search field don't work at all. I put a lot of time into devdocs over the years and your mirror is, well frankly, terrible.

So Lonny must have made some changes to the site (my script updated every few hours) and it broke my script and the site. Considering my script had only been running for a few hours I am not surprised something broke early on, it was under testing!
Considering Lonny didn't care to support a mirror, he was very quick to complain the mirror was broken, which is a joke as he refused every step of the way to help, so what does he expect ?! He complains search is broken after I asked for help and he refused!!??

I read elsewhere that I refused to link to the original site, total BS, I never refused to do anything, I only asked for help, and got nothing ! Now I see lots of abuse directed towards myself! , and yet somehow I am the one being a "dick" ? Geeze.

So yet again I am forced into a impossible "no win" situation with people, which makes me very angry indeed. So my copy is gone as I am sick and tired of all this BS with people and sure won't be trying to preserve any websites in the future.


In short: Lonny is the bad guy who BROKE EXXOS' MIRROR and forces exxos to stop his good work.
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby Atarieterno » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:01 pm

Sorry, but I will give my personal opinion:
I fully agree that the most elementary courtesy rule indicates that it is convenient to ask the owner of a page for permission before creating a mirror of it, and if it is not possible to contact the owner, at least the original source will be cited.
But let's analyze the collateral effects of this whole affair: in the years that I've been in this magnificent forum, I feel very sad every time people with interesting knowledge begin to fight among themselves and finally abandon us all; where are Simbo, eXxos, Peter Putnik, Jookie ... and many more?
I am not the Nobel Peace Prize winner, in fact I have discussed with some of the appointed gurus, but I am sure that I will always defend their work and contribution to the Atari scene, and that preservation is more important than personal reasons: no It's good to break the ball because a game is not favorable, you have to let more people play. The legend of Atari is more important than personal quarrels, the survival of our machines is more important than our ego, the preservation of software and manuals is more important than a discussion between two people who could give a solution for that.
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby troed » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:56 pm

joska wrote:Before exxos removes it, here's his statement on this issue:

I also added the site was a mirror to prevent confusion. Site seemed to be working fine at that point.



Thanks - it seems a lot of comments here are simply wrong then.

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby czietz » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:14 pm

troed wrote:
joska wrote:Before exxos removes it, here's his statement on this issue:

I also added the site was a mirror to prevent confusion. Site seemed to be working fine at that point.



Thanks - it seems a lot of comments here are simply wrong then.


Well, he only added that shortly before then deciding to take down the site instead. So the comments are not really wrong. As joska already said, for most of its existence, exxos' mirror did not contain a such notice, it was a pure copy of Lonny's site.

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby joska » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:31 pm

troed wrote:
joska wrote:Before exxos removes it, here's his statement on this issue:

I also added the site was a mirror to prevent confusion. Site seemed to be working fine at that point.



Thanks - it seems a lot of comments here are simply wrong then.


I had a look at his copy before he removed it - there were no such statements there AFAICS. If there were then it was well hidden.

But of course - no-one could check this now that exxos has removed the "proofs" and then posted his own version of the story somewhere it can't be commented on.
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby troed » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:38 pm

czietz wrote:Well, he only added that shortly before then deciding to take down the site instead. So the comments are not really wrong. As joska already said, for most of its existence, exxos' mirror did not contain a such notice, it was a pure copy of Lonny's site.


Of course they're wrong, trying to imply that exxos secretely tried to pass it off as his own. During most of that time, if I've understood it correctly, the original site was offline more than online as well.

Basically I think this is one of the silliest threads I've seen in a long while. Lots of buh-uh-uh.

lp wrote:This sounds more like an excuse to try and high-jack someone else site/idea. Quite frankly I don't believe he tried to contact me at all.

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby GokMasE » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:00 pm

Forcing your "help" on someone who doesn't want it sounds like a pure recipe for disaster. Hopefully the removal of the "mirror" marks the end of this mess, regardless of previous twists and turns and ending rants.

That being said, I would certainly be every bit as pissed off as Lp if something I had crafted was treated the same way.

Again, common sense and decency goes a long way.


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