atarimusic.net site move

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exxos
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atarimusic.net site move

Postby exxos » Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:11 pm

atarimusic.net is moving over to my host in the near future.This is the test site URL and a clone of the site as from about a week ago.

http://atarimusic.exxoshost.co.uk/

The first time the site loads, the music box may not appear so most likely you will have to refresh the page to get it to come up. This seems like some screwy caching issue in joomla.

I h ave had to painstakingly go though the SQL database and fix huge amounts of data to get it to run at all on my host. Also a lot of configuration files had to be updated. Also there seems to be a lot of bugs in the joomla code which is driving me nuts. So far the site *should* work fully, though it needs people to test it out. Currently the site has output about 10MB log file of errors so I will keep working on fixing those. The site also outputs a HUGE lot of cache data which is annoying as mostly 10byte files are totaling almost 1GB of cache rubbish. Overall while the site may look as though its working fine, its a wonder it works at all. So not a fan of joomla.

Short term the site will run "as is" with exception to the bug fixes I will try and do. atarimusic.net will go offline next week while I check there are no "crossed wires" between sites. Some images and pages were loading from the original site while the actual site itself was running on my server. So I need to disable atarimusic.net to make sure its all running good. I'm waiting back to hear from Malcom when the domain itself expires, I hope to take over that eventually.

Long term. The site needs totally re-doing without joomla. This will create a lot of work, but I hope the "new" site will pretty much emulate the old one, at least as much as possible. Keeping the content is top priority.

The exception is going to be the forum. It isn't exactly active, and I believe most people there are also on here (AF) anyway. So I think as AF is a central hub for the Atari community, that closing the atarimusic.net forum isn't going to cause any real issues. The only issue is what content to keep on the forum itself and possibly a archive created or separate articles made from the posts that are important to keep.

Overall, I didn't want to start changing the site though with so many "hidden issues" and long term reliability , its going to have to have a overhaul. The original site will be running for probably a year yet anyway. Though please note if anything is "posted" or changed on the original site, the new stuff will not show up on the site on my server. As mention before, I can't copy the database over again due to to many things need fixing.

Hopefully the new site will be pretty much identical to the old one and of course keeping the music and content alive :)
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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby bullis1 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:18 pm

Thank you for hosting. It's a great resource.
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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby Dal » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:17 pm

@exxos: If you want to dump the phpbb database to file, I can look into migrating the structure and posts into here under its own subforum?
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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby exxos » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:25 pm

Dal wrote:@exxos: If you want to dump the phpbb database to file, I can look into migrating the structure and posts into here under its own subforum?


I have a SQL dump of the whole lot. Not sure how easy it would be to transfer over. Would assume it would cause problems with users not actually being users on here ? It needs looking at eventually to decide what info should be kept, it doesn't really seem to be that active with much anyway. I don't want to simply wipe it out one day if there could be some useful info on there.

As a general note, Mal has vanished again, he made me site admin of the site, but I couldn't get access to my cloned site even after copying the database files over again. I think there have been the odd couple of people trying to register, but I can't activate any accounts as I simply don't have access to the admin stuff on my cloned site yet. It could take some time before it gets up to speed fully again. I do still plan to work on a new site, but its not high up on my to do list currently. But at least the site is "safe" from vanishing, so thats the main thing :)

There are some really good tunes on there. Hopefully in the future people will come back to the site and upload more tunes. I did half wonder about a general Atari music section, like music from games which are good and that sort of thing. There are some awesome tunes out there and some classics so might be worth thinking about in due time.
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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby LaurentS » Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:17 pm

Your site is really nice. I always listen Atari music when I code.

Thanks a lot.

Regards

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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby exxos » Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:28 pm

LaurentS wrote:Your site is really nice. I always listen Atari music when I code.

Thanks a lot.

Regards



Technically its not my site, its Mal's, I am just the new owner, keeping it alive :) Mal rescued it from the previous owner he was telling me a while ago. So its 3rd hand now it seems :lol: Hate to see cool retro sites vanish, so reel to reel keeping it real, or something like that 8)
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby Dal » Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:54 pm

Ping the backup over and I'll have a go with it in my dev environment. I reckon I can get the posts in but the usernames would just not link to an AF account. At least it preserves the history and still allows AF members to pick up on any threads that may still be of relavence.

I'll need to know the phpbb version it's running as I'll need to upgrade the schema before anything will fit.
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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby qq1975b » Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:58 am

Cool! I like atarimusic.net :)
Trying to learn...

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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby ruthless » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:31 pm

thank you for the link, love ST music

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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby exxos » Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:09 pm

Finally (I think) got all the bugs out of the site. The site should be 100% working now. There might be some odd little bugs here and there, but nothing huge.

I've replied to Dal about moving the AMN forum over to here, so we can have a central hub of people. For example, there is no use having a AMN forum if music people only generally hang out on this forum.

As AMN site is a pain in the rear, to put it bluntly to keep online, I am going to have to program a whole new site for it. This is going to take some months. While I don't mind doing the work, my concern is anyone going to use the site after all this work ? Malcolm told me when the site went offline in 2010 is was very popular, but after a fight to get the site back up and running again, nobody really went back to it after that.

I have it in mind to mass email all members to get people back to uploading there, as people are still creating music, but its scattered over various forums and youtube, people are not using the site as a central hub for their music anymore. So there are people about, but why do they not use AMN anymore ?

If anyone reading this has known AMN for some years, how do you guys feel about a new site ? Clean slate or try and keep it looking similar to like it does now ? I don't want to get into the situation where people think "this is not AMN anymore", but the site has to get updated at some point.

I've been fighting joomla code for some months now and its just not viable to keep spending time fixing stuff with it. One main problem is while the site is pumping out some serious bandwidth currently, Joolma creates a LOT of cache files. Only way is to keep deleting them every few days. Its mostly cached php pages, layouts etc, but while the files are around 50k-200k after a few days it start turning into 100's of MB of space. Really Joomla should clean up its cache junk after few days, but enough is enough with the thing. better to spend time on creating a new site than trying to follow endless pages of php code to keep fixing stuff. Originally I just wanted to host the site and keep a part of history online, though its turned into a lot more work than I had thought.

The overall operation of the site, plus everyones music, articles etc, will all still be there, but likely all simplified. Easier navigation and easier to upload albums. How albums are uploaded now seems really confusing to me. It caught me out that when a MP3 gets uploaded, it doesn't store the file unless you actually put in a name of the song. Then the MP3 gets saved with that name, not the actual uploaded filename. Its just another thing is just seem stupid to me and really needed fixing.

While joomla is nice for creating sites easily, when you need to change something pretty simple like that, its practically impossible as your basically forced to use plugins how the author wants you to use them, not do "anything more". So other than hacking about php files for days, it just got the point where time would be better spent on writing a new "engine" for the site. I've never been a fan of these "easy site tools" because in the long run, it just creates more work. When things do go wrong, its hard to get help, and some extensions dont help unless you basically pay for tech support. Which is fine, but I don't really feel inclined to pay someone to fix bugs in their own code. I've never been a fan of such "frameworks" it always ends up being impossible to work with.

So working towards a new site. If anyone knows a good site player thats free and actually works right, then let me know. Really I am looking into a similar player as AMN uses now. Though I want the option to either play a MP3 and show the album cover like it does now, or play from a youtube link. Some have "music videos" so they should be playable on the AMN player. Also likely people will want to save their playlists, so that should be a option also. I don't want a "bloatware" player either. Just something simple which does the job without having to spend weeks figuring it out.

Also if someone has time to donate in building a new site then let me know. As mentioned above, if someone has time to try a few players out to see how they work and how easy they are to setup, then it will help give me a head-start as my free time is pretty much overloaded constantly.
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby dbsys » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:52 am

Exxos, thanks for bringing all this up.

And thanks for rescuing Atarimusic.net from being abandoned.

For me this site still is quite a valuable resource and I am there quite often. Besides Tim´s Atari MIDI World, Atarimusic.net is one of the few other sites to go when using an Atari to make and create music based on MIDI.

Thanks for talking to Dal about possibly moving the AMN forum which contains quite important and useful knowledge about software and systems. Losing this info would be great loss for the Atari music community. So please try to keep it, either merged to here or making articles of the most important topics.

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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby exxos » Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:20 am

dbsys wrote:Exxos, thanks for bringing all this up.

And thanks for rescuing Atarimusic.net from being abandoned.

For me this site still is quite a valuable resource and I am there quite often. Besides Tim´s Atari MIDI World, Atarimusic.net is one of the few other sites to go when using an Atari to make and create music based on MIDI.

Thanks for talking to Dal about possibly moving the AMN forum which contains quite important and useful knowledge about software and systems. Losing this info would be great loss for the Atari music community. So please try to keep it, either merged to here or making articles of the most important topics.


My main aim is to preserve all the information, I also cloned Tim's site a few weeks ago.

If the AMN database can't be dumped into a section on here, then the posts will have to be converted to articles, but that would be a huge job (someone else would have to take on that mission as I'm not a midi expert). If worst comes to worst, I will install the forum software over on AMN. Though as mentioned before, its not ideal by any means to run 2 forums.

Aside from the forum issue, people should see the AMN site being "updated" or rather kicking and screaming into 2016. I have started on the new site, though moving everything over pretty much "page by page" from the current site is going to take a lot of time, aswell as actually coding a new site.
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby AtariCrypt » Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:41 am

Chris, this is excellent and thank you for your commitment here. Appreciated, allow me to buy you a beer :cheers:

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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby schmudde » Sat Mar 19, 2016 5:26 pm

exxos wrote:

I have it in mind to mass email all members to get people back to uploading there, as people are still creating music, but its scattered over various forums and youtube, people are not using the site as a central hub for their music anymore. So there are people about, but why do they not use AMN anymore ?

If anyone reading this has known AMN for some years, how do you guys feel about a new site ? Clean slate or try and keep it looking similar to like it does now ? I don't want to get into the situation where people think "this is not AMN anymore", but the site has to get updated at some point.


Yeah, I think a simplified layout would be appreciated. But I still use the site as it is.

exxos wrote:
While joomla is nice for creating sites easily, when you need to change something pretty simple like that, its practically impossible as your basically forced to use plugins how the author wants you to use them, not do "anything more". So other than hacking about php files for days, it just got the point where time would be better spent on writing a new "engine" for the site. I've never been a fan of these "easy site tools" because in the long run, it just creates more work. When things do go wrong, its hard to get help, and some extensions dont help unless you basically pay for tech support. Which is fine, but I don't really feel inclined to pay someone to fix bugs in their own code. I've never been a fan of such "frameworks" it always ends up being impossible to work with.


I'm a little confused. Are you staying with Joomla for your CMS? You seem pretty unhappy with it. I'm guessing starting over on Drupal or Wordpress isn't the way you want to go.

/Schmüdde

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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby exxos » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:27 pm

schmudde wrote:I'm a little confused. Are you staying with Joomla for your CMS? You seem pretty unhappy with it. I'm guessing starting over on Drupal or Wordpress isn't the way you want to go.

/Schmüdde


I'm recoding the entire site myself, I will still be using the old database as it contains all the info. Just will take some time to complete. I've already done a lot of coding. Easier layout and easier site to navigate is what I am doing. Though the menu structure will still be the same, or very close to. So i'm not making the site totally alien to everyone.
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby Dal » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:49 pm

This seems like a lot of work for what amounts to a preservation exercise. Surely it would be better to stick with Joomla (which is a fine CMS, btw)?

I'd be tempted to backup the content and merge it into a fresh Joomla instance with the latest version then work from there.
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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby exxos » Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:11 pm

Dal wrote:This seems like a lot of work for what amounts to a preservation exercise. Surely it would be better to stick with Joomla (which is a fine CMS, btw)?

I'd be tempted to backup the content and merge it into a fresh Joomla instance with the latest version then work from there.


Its a lot of work yes, but its proving to much work in fixing everything thats broken anyway. There is so much wrong with the whole thing its a wonder its ever run at all. I spent the past week fixing buggy code just to display a "no image" image on peoples profiles and album covers. I emailed tech support for one thing and its paid for support, Where the first thing they will tell me to do is probably upgrade to a later version. I'm also not going to pay to fix their own broken code either.

I did clone the site (again) and talked to malc about trying a update to joomla latest version, it was actually using the current sites database with the cloned site, so that would need more fixing. Like I said to malcom a few days ago, if we try a update to the site and it breaks, the whole site is trashed again , and even if something still doesn't work, ive still gotta spend time fixing someone else's code. Better just to leave it alone while its mostly working than keep messing with it. Its why I say enough is enough, I've spent 3 months on the site and there is still a lot broken. I'm done with fixing other peoples buggy code.

Personally I hate "site builder packages". Something goes wrong, can never get support. Then its endless hours googling though forums to try and get some clue as to why something doesn't work. Want to do something " a bit more" than its capable and your stuffed. Been down that road to many times in the past.

The site isn't that complicated overall to re-create without lots of buggy bloatware. Malc is keen for a new theme and offered some suggestions. I think he would have liked to do a new theme a long time ago, but in a way its good he didn't as I honestly don't think the site would have been salvageable if it had broke during the update.

People are still creating music, So I hope one the new site is running people will start using it again. If they don't, then it will have been a huge waste of time :)
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

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Re: atarimusic.net site move

Postby exxos » Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:05 pm

applecrypt wrote:Chris, this is excellent and thank you for your commitment here. Appreciated, allow me to buy you a beer :cheers:


:cheers:
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator


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