Bonus program for Atari developers!

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MacFalcon
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Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby MacFalcon » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:06 am

Hello my friends,

on the German website http://www.atari-home.de there is a bonus program for Atari developers.

E.g. if one codes a full featured internet browser where ebay and other shopping sites are usable, ssl and javascript included people there are willing to give him an award of 820,- EUR (tendents to increase as there are just a view votes at the moment).

http://forum.atari-home.de/index.php?topic=6290.0

The same for a RidgeRacer Clone for CT60 (125,- EUR bonus at the moment):

http://forum.atari-home.de/index.php?topic=6291.0

If you want to support developers, too, then sign up there and tell what you are willing to give. This bonus has nothing to do with the payment of the software, it is just a bonus to encourage the left developers to make a little profit out of their hobby. They are free to release the software in any kind of license (freeware, shareware, commercial...) they want!

The page is in German only, I can provide a translated version if you like!


Stay Atari!

Chris
Last edited by MacFalcon on Fri May 21, 2010 7:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby Jookie » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:20 am

MacFalcon wrote:E.g. if one codes a full featured internet browser where ebay and other shopping sites are usable, ssl and javascript included people there are willing to give him an award of 395,- EUR (tendents to increase as there are just a view votes at the moment).


The idea is good, but the chances that this will happen are low - full featured internet browsers like IE, Opera or FireFox are being developed by a team of programmers and testers for years and they eat up many system resources. It would be easier to port some of the usable opensource browsers (with many features cut down) than develop a new one, but that still would be a lot of work.

I too would like to get that browser on my Atari (even though it would not be possible on ST with 4 MB of RAM, Falcon with CT60 would be a better platform choice), but I don't see some real chances of that happening. Sorry for my pessimistic view :(

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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby MacFalcon » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:57 am

A port would be okay too and the bonus would be paid! LINKS from Didier is damn close to what we need... Still a little slow even on a ct60 (mainly because lack of gfx card) and you cannot type special signs like "@" which makes it less usable than it could be, but I think it still could be optimized! If one would bring the big 3 Atari browsers together (speed of highwire, Javascript from Draconis and SSL from Cab) we could have a very nice webbrowser. At least highwire and draconis are open source, also LINKS does support Java Script.

We do not expect any miracles. But I bet my ass that it is possible to use pages like ebay, amazon and such on our Ataris!
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby MiggyMog » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:58 pm

Maybe someone could set up some kind of application server portal where by the hard work was done server side & all the atari had to do was receive a coverted view of the web page & send Keyboard/Mouse commands.

Maybe a WAP viewer may be more realistic, a port of opera mobile maybe? ( I think an ex atari scene guy works for opera!)
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby coze » Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:06 am

this is actually called a bounty. here in the amiga scene we have lots of bounties, there was also a bounty for such a browser for amiga at about 10.000 $, but I'm not sure if someone did it.

http://www.osnews.com/story/10999/AmiZi ... ty_At_9507
http://www.amigabounty.net/index.php

frieden brothers are supposed to be doing a firefox port atm but it's for PPC only.
I wonder if a 68k Amiga browser could be ported to Atari ? (there's classic OWB and sputnik atm I believe)

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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby Jookie » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:06 am

MiggyMog wrote:Maybe someone could set up some kind of application server portal where by the hard work was done server side & all the atari had to do was receive a coverted view of the web page & send Keyboard/Mouse commands.


AFAIK that's how the new Opera Mini works and it uses their proxy servers for that work. Now there are at least two ways of how to do it:
- stupid and fast way - let some already made browser (i.e. Opera or FireFox) run on the public linux server and create just a thin client on Atari, who will get and show 'screenshots' (images) from what browser
- better and slow way - convert that browser output to something more intelligent than just an image and then create a viewer for that Atari

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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby MacFalcon » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:04 pm

coze wrote:this is actually called a bounty. here in the amiga scene we have lots of bounties, there was also a bounty for such a browser for amiga at about 10.000 $, but I'm not sure if someone did it.

http://www.osnews.com/story/10999/AmiZi ... ty_At_9507
http://www.amigabounty.net/index.php

frieden brothers are supposed to be doing a firefox port atm but it's for PPC only.
I wonder if a 68k Amiga browser could be ported to Atari ? (there's classic OWB and sputnik atm I believe)


This is VERY interesting...

Well let a server do the work isn´t exactly the goal what it should be, but it would be great to have this anyway! Maybe a bit unsafe regarding passwords being sent over just one point...
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby mikro » Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:59 pm

Jookie wrote:stupid and fast way - let some already made browser (i.e. Opera or FireFox) run on the public linux server and create just a thin client on Atari, who will get and show 'screenshots' (images) from what browser

Yeah Jookie, we call it remote desktop ;) It was the first thing I could think of -- why all that hassle with Atari browser, if you _really_ so desperately want to sit against your atari while browsing, why not to take a hard look at Lonny's AtariVNC. A lot of work is already done, only thing is missing, some good graphics card (256 colours isn't much fun in internet world) what is solvable by ctpci and guess what? I don't believe more than 100 CTPCIs will be sold...

Jookie wrote:- better and slow way - convert that browser output to something more intelligent than just an image and then create a viewer for that Atari

I don't know, I'd say most of the resources is currently spent on JavaScript engine, it would be quite tricky to think about protocol which does Javascript on server side but sends results to client. Some stupid things like "hover on" actions with text and images are quite ok but more complex things... I don't know... keep in mind even that opera mini runs on phones with about 400 MHz and 65k colours.

From my point of view, the best choice is to concentrate on that game. You can show it to your grandchildren, your wife, friends, anybody => your work will be much more appreciated. Browser for 50+ people is quite wasteful. And yes, 50, because decent browser is definitely for CT60+CTPCI/SuperVidel, not a single chance for stock Falcon@16 MHz.

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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby wongck » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:12 pm

encouraging...
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby mikro » Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:34 pm

wongck, you can always prove me wrong, let's code browser for atari, with javascript and ssl that runs decently on 16 MHz machine with 256 (16?) colors, I'm sure you'll be rich guy very soon, Windows Mobile / Symbian developers will be worshiping you as god ;)

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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby wongck » Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:29 am

mikro wrote: I'm sure you'll be rich guy very soon, Windows Mobile / Symbian developers will be worshiping you as god ;)

Surely that person must be real god... to magically transform the humble CT63 to be more powerful than my PSP 2000.
The PSP2000 is already more powerful, more colourful, more graphics/sound special chip in it and comes with wireless...
and the PSP browser that comes with it, do I even care to use that?
Go figure.
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby MacFalcon » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:35 am

Well Mikro, you are right from a technical point of view.

But did you have a look at Links from aniplayer homepage? This IS a very good browser and damn close to what is needed for our platform. It HAS javascript, SSL and it runs in decent speed (sure a bit choppy, but really usable) on my CT60 and Milan.

What it currently lacks is:

- GEM Window (not really needed, but I think it´d be faster and easier to use then)
- Ebay is not correct displayed (why ever)
- Characters like "@" and anything typed by pressing <alt> are not displayed, which decreases usability immense :( (Email account)
- it doesn´t work with daynaport (EtherNAT, NetUSBee and Milan Ethernet worked)

With some optimisation (I don´t know how much work Didier has spent on that) it could be "THE" browser for Atari. Free, lightweight and fast.

Next darconis: It has javascript and runs fast on my ct60. But it lacks stability and is slower than highwire. But both are open source, if one would mix them up and include ssl from cab´s freeware ssl.ovl (don´t know which license) this could also be a very decent browser.

Next, why not including wap, then one could use at least mobile.ebay.com, which is much more than one can today... AFAIK Raphale Kawecki (sorry for misspelling) did work on that. But as I said here on in an other forum, even my old Siemens ME45 (which has less than 100 Mhz CPU) was able to access "real" ebay site... in b/w, but it worked! Also the DSP in the Falcon isn´t used in decoding as it was the case with cab and dsp-jpg.ovl... So maybe we could benefit from it for some better rendering... Maybe it could render the page layout while cpu does javascript and images? Just a guess... and just for Falcon at the moment...

Maybe you are right with the "50" people with ct60 using their ataris for browsing, but you forgot the Milan and Hades users and the upcoming coldfire platform, so the number of users should be a bit higher ;) Definately all of the visitors of OFAM this year do want a good webbrowser for Atari.

I heard that netsurf for amiga runs on a decent speed on an 68060... so why not on Atari?

But I can understand that coding a browser isn´t the most interesting thing ;) But you would satisfy more than 50 users that´s for sure.

I personally would like to see both... a good racing game and a decent webbrowser!

A racing game over the internet would be my absolute dream ;)
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby wongck » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:14 pm

MacFalcon wrote:- it doesn´t work with daynaport (EtherNAT, NetUSBee and Milan Ethernet worked)

Hmm... seems to work on my Scsilink, well at least I get some web pages appearing on it.
Not used much only for trying/testing.
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby MacFalcon » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:16 pm

wongck wrote:
MacFalcon wrote:- it doesn´t work with daynaport (EtherNAT, NetUSBee and Milan Ethernet worked)

Hmm... seems to work on my Scsilink, well at least I get some web pages appearing on it.
Not used much only for trying/testing.


Maybe it is fault of my easymint setup :) But other browser definately work on that ;)
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby christos » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:29 pm

And how did you get it not to crash every 25seconds? That's it's survival time on my easymint falcon +CT63?

I know it works on other people's systems.. not here though.
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby wongck » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:34 pm

christos wrote:And how did you get it not to crash every 25seconds? That's it's survival time on my easymint falcon +CT63?
I know it works on other people's systems.. not here though.

Your's the 8th & final batch?
Mine had some issues, but it's not 25 seconds.
It's crashes mostly during boot up or rather trying to boot up. :lol:
When it boots up OK, probably hangs big time after 1.5-2 hours of use - Mint or Tos.
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby MacFalcon » Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:08 pm

What do you mean? Links crashing or your CT60 crashing? Both work fine for me here for hours.
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby mikro » Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:41 am

MacFalcon wrote:But did you have a look at Links from aniplayer homepage? This IS a very good browser and damn close to what is needed for our platform. It HAS javascript, SSL and it runs in decent speed (sure a bit choppy, but really usable) on my CT60 and Milan.

What it currently lacks is:

- GEM Window (not really needed, but I think it´d be faster and easier to use then)
- Ebay is not correct displayed (why ever)
- Characters like "@" and anything typed by pressing <alt> are not displayed, which decreases usability immense :( (Email account)
- it doesn´t work with daynaport (EtherNAT, NetUSBee and Milan Ethernet worked)

With some optimisation (I don´t know how much work Didier has spent on that) it could be "THE" browser for Atari. Free, lightweight and fast.

This was a really good argument, Chris! ;-) My Atari spirit is slowly coming back to me (I've had quite terrible last months) and I've got spare weekends... so why not, it's quite motivating! ;-)

Just a short note about Draconis & stuff: I really doubt Draconis has complete (or at least 80% complete) JavaScript support, I'd say it's only basic things... so mixing Highwire and Draconis' Javascript is probably nice idea but who knows how much we gain... and you're right with Milan / Hades / ACP users but it's still so much work for so few people :(

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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby MacFalcon » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:18 pm

mikro wrote:
MacFalcon wrote:But did you have a look at Links from aniplayer homepage? This IS a very good browser and damn close to what is needed for our platform. It HAS javascript, SSL and it runs in decent speed (sure a bit choppy, but really usable) on my CT60 and Milan.

What it currently lacks is:

- GEM Window (not really needed, but I think it´d be faster and easier to use then)
- Ebay is not correct displayed (why ever)
- Characters like "@" and anything typed by pressing <alt> are not displayed, which decreases usability immense :( (Email account)
- it doesn´t work with daynaport (EtherNAT, NetUSBee and Milan Ethernet worked)

With some optimisation (I don´t know how much work Didier has spent on that) it could be "THE" browser for Atari. Free, lightweight and fast.

This was a really good argument, Chris! ;-) My Atari spirit is slowly coming back to me (I've had quite terrible last months) and I've got spare weekends... so why not, it's quite motivating! ;-)

Just a short note about Draconis & stuff: I really doubt Draconis has complete (or at least 80% complete) JavaScript support, I'd say it's only basic things... so mixing Highwire and Draconis' Javascript is probably nice idea but who knows how much we gain... and you're right with Milan / Hades / ACP users but it's still so much work for so few people :(


Nice to have you on board again, I guess motivation is the right thing ;) That´s the spirit my friend! Optimizing Links is probably the best idea and less work than writing really new stuff. It really is very close to an excellent web browser. I personally like it, especially the version where you have background images and speedo-fonts. This is very smooth ;)

And you are right about "so few people", but hey, many of these people are really die hard fans and appreciate YOUR work very much! I mean you already wrote a piece of Atari history with porting Quake and Duke3d!!! Definately you did!
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby wongck » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:49 pm

MacFalcon wrote:What do you mean? Links crashing or your CT60 crashing? Both work fine for me here for hours.

CT63 crashing.... well it actually just hangs.
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby MacFalcon » Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:19 am

wongck wrote:
MacFalcon wrote:What do you mean? Links crashing or your CT60 crashing? Both work fine for me here for hours.

CT63 crashing.... well it actually just hangs.


I meant Christos ;) The last batch of CT63 was indeed buggy... AFAIK Rodolphe fixed some which were sent back to him...

My machines with CT60 and CT63 are very reliable and work good for hours... sure if you overclock a lot, you can get overheat problems...

Best regards,

Chris
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby wongck » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:55 pm

MacFalcon wrote:I meant Christos ;) The last batch of CT63 was indeed buggy... AFAIK Rodolphe fixed some which were sent back to him...

Yeah, tell me about it. I sent back to him twice, and it's still not as stable as the 030. :(
But at least I can use it for up for several hours before it hangs.
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby mikro » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:29 pm

I don't know Chris... look at the latest links release, I compiled it under linux, there's no way how one could call those sites call "correctly rendered"... login / ssl works, yes, but the rest ...
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby christos » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:33 pm

I meant Links, my ct63 has an uptime of over 12hrs, now that I learned what I shouldn't do...
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Re: Bonus program for Atari developers!

Postby MacFalcon » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:12 am

MacFalcon wrote:- Ebay is not correct displayed (why ever)


@Mikro: Sorry, then you missunderstood me :( I wrote that ebay is not correct displayed (same for amazon). But when ebay is usable (login works) with the Linux version, it´s more than I achieved with atari version.

The biggest point would be that it´s usable, I mean bidding and selling (would be great) works. If it looked just ugly I personally wouldn´t care... sure better rendering would be great!

BTW, mobile.ebay.de already works with highwire!!! But that lacks SSL :( I didn´t try with Links, yet... but damn that selling doesn´t work with mobile version :(

The biggest problem of Atari Links is not working "@".

@Christos: In fact I didn´t use Links for hours (as I finished my job with it earlier), but looking up the sites I want (and it displays) always worked fine...
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