1xSCSI 1xFALCON 1xPC

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calimero
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1xSCSI 1xFALCON 1xPC

Postby calimero » Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:25 am

Hi,
can anyone explain how should I setup HDDRIVER, terminators on SCSI chain and other parameters to use one SCSI harddisk on Falcon and PC at same time?
For now I manage to set to everything works more or less ok but:
- Falcon won't boot from SCSI (I guess it's becouse I turned on compatibile mode for DOS in HDDRIVER)
- and when PC write files on SCSI I don't see them on Falcon until I restart Falcon or use mediachg.prg in HDDRIVER.

so some complete guide would be nice! :)

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Postby Womble » Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:55 am

Eh? you want to have the Falcon and the PC connected to the SCSI hard drive AT THE SAME TIME, and BOTH have access to the drive?

Is that what you are trying to do???

There is no way to do this - the controller on the SCSI chain has a reserved SCSI ID, all the other IDs are available for drives - in the above scenario you are trying to use two controllers therefore it wont work. One controller will gain control and the other will be blind to the changes, until you restart it, at which point it gains control and the other system loses control.

You can swap (not hotswap) the drive between the 2 systems. It works for me and I just formatted the drive in ST/PC compatibility mode.

You cant boot from a drive thats formatted in PC/ST compat mode - the compat mode changes something in the master boot record thus rendering the drive unbootable from.

But I am guessing you are trying to do the impossible.

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Postby calimero » Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:44 am

Then I done impossible ! :)
I manage to connected the SCSI hard drive AT THE SAME TIME to PC and Falcon and BOTH have access to the drive!

and SCSI is designed to support more host in one chain.

OK, boot wont work on Atari becous of PC compatibile mode, that is clear now, I'll but HDRIVER from floppy, no problem. But my main question still is here: where should I put terminators, how should I precisle configure HDDRIVER and how PC (there is only few option on Tekram adapter).

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Postby Indus » Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:49 am

Womble,

With the SCSI, it is possible to have two controllers (computers or devices) that control (read and write) the same HDD.

I'm doing it every day with one of my PCs and my Yamaha RS7000 (groovebox/sampler) and they read/write datas on the same SCSI zip disk without any problem.

But I don't know if that is possible with a PC and an Atari Falcon. I never tried it.
Indus also known as Megadeth (Pendragons/Prism) or Hardosoft (X-Factor/MAD).
All my Atari ST graphics are available on DHS website

Back on Atari and working on a new Atari ST game

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Postby PaulB » Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:18 am

It's one thing having a drive that you can connect to 1 computer and be able to connect it separately to another computer/device for data transfer but connecting a hard drive to two computers at the same time is very dangerous.

If computer A is writing to the drive and computer B also starts to write to the drive you will end up with corrupt data because computer A dosen't know what computer B is doing. The only thing that may save you is the cache on the hard drive but if the 1st computer writes a file bigger than the cache size then corrupt data will appear.

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Postby calimero » Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:37 am

ok, than I will do one test when I'am back home...
I'll let PC to write e.g. 100MB of files while Atari try to do same (on same SCSI harddisc)! I found information on internet that say: SCSI have built-in logic to prevent overlaping data... or something like that. But anyhow we will do a little test :twisted:
I'll let you know if my harddisc survive!

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Postby [ProToS] » Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:11 pm

it's possible with macos (they have a build in tool for that) but with windows I can't say
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Postby calimero » Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:24 pm

well...
if I try to write data at same time on PC and Falcon: PC (Win2000) get freez complete and Falcon just waiting until I turn off SCSI drive.
There is no data coruption. After restarting PC in won't boot (stay at Win2000 logo) until I turn of SCSI drive.

I think that problem is with PC, on Falcon I turn on SCSI bus arbitration and I don't see this option on PC.

Anyway it is possible to transfer data on this way but without writing data at same time.

Any new ideas are welcome.

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Postby ggn » Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:51 pm

Could you try the experiment with linux on your pc (knoppix for example)?

George
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Postby karlm » Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:49 pm

my question is why do you want to do this? apart from having to uplug the drive and swap it over.

cheers

karlm

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Postby ggn » Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:28 pm

Timmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.... erm... oops, I mean Karlm ;)

Isn't that a cool enough feature by itself?

There have been some posts about this on comp.sys.atari.st in the past. (I remember they said this is 100% possible). Maybe calimero can find more info there?

George
is 73 Falcon patched atari games enough ? ^^

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Postby Crash » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:47 pm

Connecting a PC and Falcon to the same SCSI drive is supposed to be possible. Both controllers and hard disk drivers need to support SCSI Bus Arbitration, and be sure to keep in mind that the PC and Falcon's SCSI interface IDs need to be different (since they probably both default to 7?)

HDDriver should be the right drive for the Atari side, although I can't suggest what is needed with the PC with regard to OS or adapter.

This is one of those projects that I never got around to ;)

simbo

Postby simbo » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:17 pm

ok this can be done

try to avoid adaptec 2940 or 2930
they are wide scsi2 or uuw scsi 3
with an 8 bit port
but have 14 luns !!!! and will complain
i found the solution was to turn off the scsi uuw or wide scsi2
to leave just the older 7 lun standard
best avoid these and just use a cheep pci card with 7 lun's and 8 bit
50 pin sockets
most onboard types are 7 lun but still uuw scsi 3 or uw scsi2
so disable it and fit a simple pci card
if you need to have the controller for other things
as long as you avoid lun 0 or lun 1 for the pc its cool
even if the id of the drive is set to id 0 or id1
the pc should still ignore the scsi drive in the middle
other than make it avalible as a drive
the problem you have is the pc controller must be set to be lun 7
and not lun 0 or as womble points out
youll get a conflicting controller
however the secret is that a pc will boot or try to boot from
lun 0 or lun 1 and drive id 0 or 1 ONLY !!!
so... knowing this you need
to avoid these two lun id's on the pc cards bios
an atari can boot from any id...
so.. set the atari / pc scsi shared drive to id 3
and rework the atari boot to accomadate booting on its own {no pc connected} from the drive set to use scsi id3
in other words
set the atari and drive up on there own
enable drive termination
set the drive to id3
install boot files and check it works
now set the pc scsi card or controller IN ITS BIOS to use lun 7
now disable drive termination and connect accross
and boot the atari the pc THEN .... power the drive
and hot reset the atari {ctrl alt del}
and bing the atari will boot
pc controller lun 7 is way at the top of the scsi heep
the atari should always stay at lun 0
to be a master controller {bus master}
this way the atari wont try to boot your pc scsi card rom
the pc card cant boot the id 3 drive
and the atari will boot from id3 no problem
and the pc will see both
also DO NOT USE ANY TERMINATION AT ALL then after on any drive you add in to the chain
you dont need it only the first and last device needs termination
so this will be both the pc scsi and the scsi on the atari
so disable drive termination
and it will work fine
dont beleve the hype
ive wired more than 4 controllers to the atari and everything worked i could access any file from any machine and write with any ,,,,

problem solved 8)

infact you can have 1 atari and 6 samplers all with drives
as long as the atari has a unique lun id {logical unit number}
and is the lowest lun {lun 0 or 1}
then it wont bother other controllers
be warned most samplers have built in termination usualy switchable
but some you need to futter with resistor packs inside it
so yes you can have two ataris and both will boot
from separate drives on the same chain

if you have an ste set to lun 0 {ste controllers from asci some use lun1 or have jumpers so check this}
and a falcon set to lun 1
as long as you setup the ste first and its drive as a lower id than the one set for the falcon
then both machines will boot from different drives
although the higher lun will loose its priority
as this will be the falcon
then the falcon should boot last after the ste
you need > tos 2.06 or 1.62 with fix patches added to correct any problem / errors you also need to change any ste to the later dma controller

or it may suffer data loss

advice is to check everything is cool
by copying a large file around to check things

a 1-10mb sample is a good file size for you to use
and tune with
Last edited by simbo on Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

simbo

Postby simbo » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:18 pm

scsi arbitration is only usefull if you connect two ataris
and boot them both from different partitions
of the same physical drive unit or id

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Postby 030falcon030 » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:41 pm

simbo wrote:scsi arbitration is only usefull if you connect two ataris
and boot them both from different partitions
of the same physical drive unit or id

That doesnt sound like a very good idea.
hmmm:/
I have an ste 4mb... with a 20mb powerdrive slimline and a cumana external fdd.
And a falcon 14mb w/ ct63 + ctpci

simbo

Postby simbo » Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:39 pm

if you have two controllers

you can connect them as easily as two lun numbers

set one to lun 0 one to lun 1

then you can have even separate drives that you can have read write access
but they remain in separate layers

you would need arbitration at the atari software level
but not at hardware
just general access is enought

much like this

scsi card pci lun 0
pc>>hdd1>>hdd2>>cdrom>>termination<< atari scsi bus
scsi bus falcon lun1 << this would need changed but i dont know how ??
atari>>hdd1>>hdd2>cdrom>etc>>termination


these signals would need taken from pre controller level
to have a lun id
or basicaly at dma level
and it is possible in the falcon

however its scsi 2 that is used so it has 14 luns

the id of the internal controller needs set to 7 and connect a pc
you can transfer files
but bi direct is not a good idea

and i would only use dos level access not windows

it could be done via the cartridge port very easily and a single wire from the scsi 2 socket

some form of hispeed transfer is better done via lan

or for direct hardware from the cartridge port 16 bit bus just as fast as hdd


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