TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

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TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby SoundDoctor » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:19 pm

Hi All,

Following a brief absence where moving house and life in general got in the way, I am back. In the last couple of weeks I have finally unpacked (some of) my Atari stuff and I'm again having retro fun, I say fun, but I'm having some TT woes. I cant seem to get Jinee 2.5 and a couple of other apps to run. I get two bombs - I expect this from some older ST apps as two bombs is a bus error and can be caused by software but I expected Jinee to run without a problem. The TT seems rock solid in every way except the Jinee bus errors.

I bought my TT about 4 years ago. Its a very nice condition C302406-001 Rev A / Rev H with all of the reworks up to Rev K in place (thanks to Atarian computing for the exhaustive guide to TT revisions!).

The machine is originally a USA system with 4mb ST RAM, Atari TT RAM 16mb non-EDO/FPM, TOS 3.06, Matrix CoCo VME graphics, and Seagate ST34520N SCSI drive. Nice. The first things I did were burn a set of UK ROMs and send the 2mb ST RAM riser off to Lynxman who did a fantastic job upgrading it to 8mb. I made a replacement clock battery board using a CR2032 also. Oh, and I upgraded HDDriver to 9.08.

It was running really nicely but I didn't get the chance to much with it before packing it up to move house other than install some apps, run some ram and bench tests and sort out some SW collections - lots of copying from MO drive, CD, external SCSI drives etc. there were some funnies with SCSI termination when I added the external drives but I solved those. I was planning to experiment with Mint and UNIX System V 4.0.

Since unpacking it it still seems rock solid except for the two bomb bus errors. I can't recall if ever I saw this before. I have added a SCSI2SD and Code Killers TT High Res adapter - both of which work brilliantly.

Things I have tried:

PSU - +5v and +12v are bang on and stable - so far so good.

ROMs - swapped alternate set in and the original Atari USA roms - no change 2 bombs

RAM - removed 8mb ST riser for boot / removed Atari TT board / re-seated on-board 2mb RAM chips ( all pass RAM test with TESTRAM.TOS) - no change 2 bombs

SCSI - removed all but internal HD / removed all but 1 external boot drive. Swapped out SCSI cables - no change 2 bombs

HDD - checked drive with Diamond Edge 2.57 - no errors or issues found.

VME - removed Matrix CoCo - no change 2 bombs

Display - tried all TT native resolutions and ST compatibility modes - no change 2 bombs

Mainboard - visually inspected for bad solder joints / trace damage or corrosion - none found. Visually inspected for cracked ICs or components and bulging / burst capacitors - everything looks really good.

I'm running out of ideas short of getting hold of a scope and looking at clocks. 99% of software I have tried so far runs with no problem. I also see the same 2 bombs with M-Disk 6.0 acc.

Maybe someone has seen this before or has some insights to offer. All suggestions gratefully received. Thanks in advance!

Mark
TT030 10mb/16mb/1Gb, Coco. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Lynxman), 1Gb CF. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Atari) 170mb IDE. Mega 1 big button (mash up badged Mega 4) 4mb (home cooked RAM upgrade) ICD ADSpeed ST OverScan. Mega 2 big button (4mb), Mega 1 small button (4mb home cooked 72pin SIMM slot), 520 STe (SIPPs), 520 STFM (4mb using a Falcon 4mb board + Blitter).

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby ThorstenOtto » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:16 pm

If it were only Jinnee, i would say it is just a configuration problem, but you say that some other apps are also failing. Have you tried some memory tester, like yaart?

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby Moulinaie » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:20 pm

Hello,

I had a strange problem after moving a TT from one room to another. Jinnee was used with MagiC. The desktop didn't come back, everything was stopped during MagiC initialization.
So I removed the auto run of Jinnee and the basic desk of MagiC worked. In it, I could run Jinnee... That was really strange... Launched by hand, it was ok, but as the auto desktop, it was not.
Just before moving the TT, the system was stable...
So I removed MagiC and installed MinT + MyAES and Jinnee runs fine a the desktop...
I never understood why.
The TT has a Matrix graphic card.

Guillaume.

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby stormy » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:28 pm

Are you running on top of magic, mint or tos? Sorry I might have missed it in your post
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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby SoundDoctor » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:04 pm

stormy wrote:Are you running on top of magic, mint or tos? Sorry I might have missed it in your post


Just plain old TOS
TT030 10mb/16mb/1Gb, Coco. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Lynxman), 1Gb CF. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Atari) 170mb IDE. Mega 1 big button (mash up badged Mega 4) 4mb (home cooked RAM upgrade) ICD ADSpeed ST OverScan. Mega 2 big button (4mb), Mega 1 small button (4mb home cooked 72pin SIMM slot), 520 STe (SIPPs), 520 STFM (4mb using a Falcon 4mb board + Blitter).

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby SoundDoctor » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:08 pm

Moulinaie wrote:Hello,

I had a strange problem after moving a TT from one room to another. Jinnee was used with MagiC. The desktop didn't come back, everything was stopped during MagiC initialization.
So I removed the auto run of Jinnee and the basic desk of MagiC worked. In it, I could run Jinnee... That was really strange... Launched by hand, it was ok, but as the auto desktop, it was not.
Just before moving the TT, the system was stable...
So I removed MagiC and installed MinT + MyAES and Jinnee runs fine a the desktop...
I never understood why.
The TT has a Matrix graphic card.

Guillaume.


Voodoo!

I've tried installing Jinee a few times now using two different installers. It just doesn't want to run.
TT030 10mb/16mb/1Gb, Coco. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Lynxman), 1Gb CF. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Atari) 170mb IDE. Mega 1 big button (mash up badged Mega 4) 4mb (home cooked RAM upgrade) ICD ADSpeed ST OverScan. Mega 2 big button (4mb), Mega 1 small button (4mb home cooked 72pin SIMM slot), 520 STe (SIPPs), 520 STFM (4mb using a Falcon 4mb board + Blitter).

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby ThorstenOtto » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:13 pm

SoundDoctor wrote:Just plain old TOS


Are you sure that this is supposed to work? I think it needs some Multi-Tasking TOS. At least i would try to install WDIALOG. And maybe try to replace the icons file with something that only has monochrome icons.

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby wongck » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:50 pm

SoundDoctor wrote:Just plain old TOS


As with almost all soft from ASH, you will probably need NVDI or MagiC for it to run properly.
Minimum should be like what ThorstenOtto said... wdialog in AUTO.

Moulinaie wrote:iC initialization.
So I removed the auto run of Jinnee and the basic desk of MagiC worked.


I hope you mean running Jinnee from the Magx.inf file.
Incidentally I like the the original basic MagiC desktop better, of course it does not have the bells & whistle.
But then I was using it on my 4MB falcon back in the 90s.
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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby SoundDoctor » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:20 pm

ThorstenOtto wrote:
SoundDoctor wrote:Just plain old TOS


Are you sure that this is supposed to work? I think it needs some Multi-Tasking TOS. At least i would try to install WDIALOG. And maybe try to replace the icons file with something that only has monochrome icons.


That's why I asked if anyone had success with it. The Jinnee manual says it will work with WDIALOG installed in the Auto folder. It doesn't work for me. I have Jinnee installed on a Falcon (still packed up after my house move) but that has both Mint and NVDI.

Here's what the manual says under section 2.1.3 System Requirements:

"Jinnee runs on all Atari and compatible computers with at least 1MB main memory at resolutions from 640x200 pixels (ST-medium) or higher."

"For optimum performance use jinnee as the desktop for the MagicC pre-emptive multitasking operating system: MagicC for Atari computers, MagiC Mac for Apple Macintosh and MagicPC for Windows95/NT.

jinnee also works without MagiC so long as WDIALOG.PRG(included in the jinnee distribution) is installed in your Auto folder."

There's definitely something odd going on with my TT.
TT030 10mb/16mb/1Gb, Coco. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Lynxman), 1Gb CF. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Atari) 170mb IDE. Mega 1 big button (mash up badged Mega 4) 4mb (home cooked RAM upgrade) ICD ADSpeed ST OverScan. Mega 2 big button (4mb), Mega 1 small button (4mb home cooked 72pin SIMM slot), 520 STe (SIPPs), 520 STFM (4mb using a Falcon 4mb board + Blitter).

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby mrbombermillzy » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:51 pm

The most hassle I have with my TT is the different HDD drivers. Some apps are touchy when it comes to the drive software.

I use ICD Pro on my SCSI drive and most stuff works.

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby SoundDoctor » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:42 pm

Thanks to everyone who helped. I have an update.

I went back to basics. I backed up my HDD and reformatted it to start again from the beginning. I installed Xboot and then installed NVDI. then I installed Jinnee. Whadaya know. She runs, no bombs.

So it looks like one of the following is true:
1. the jinnee manual is wrong
2. the version of WDIALOG included in the jinnee distribution doesn't work.
3. there was something on my HDD that upset jinnee, which is unlikely because I only had WDIALOG enabled in the Auto folder and nothing else, no ACCs, nothing.

I'm going to do a sanity check - restore my original HDD installation, re-install NVDI, thene re-install jinnee.

Now I just need to work out why M-Disk 6.0 doesn't work and gives 2 bombs. version 4.3 works ok but is not so useful. Do I even need it?? Probably not but I don't like to be beaten by bytes.

Thanks again folks!
Last edited by SoundDoctor on Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TT030 10mb/16mb/1Gb, Coco. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Lynxman), 1Gb CF. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Atari) 170mb IDE. Mega 1 big button (mash up badged Mega 4) 4mb (home cooked RAM upgrade) ICD ADSpeed ST OverScan. Mega 2 big button (4mb), Mega 1 small button (4mb home cooked 72pin SIMM slot), 520 STe (SIPPs), 520 STFM (4mb using a Falcon 4mb board + Blitter).

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby SoundDoctor » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:44 pm

Oh, the only problem I noted when I did get jinnee running with just NVDI was resolution changes from the jinnee menu didn't work.
TT030 10mb/16mb/1Gb, Coco. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Lynxman), 1Gb CF. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Atari) 170mb IDE. Mega 1 big button (mash up badged Mega 4) 4mb (home cooked RAM upgrade) ICD ADSpeed ST OverScan. Mega 2 big button (4mb), Mega 1 small button (4mb home cooked 72pin SIMM slot), 520 STe (SIPPs), 520 STFM (4mb using a Falcon 4mb board + Blitter).

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby OL » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:45 pm

Moulinaie wrote:Hello,

I had a strange problem after moving a TT from one room to another. Jinnee was used with MagiC. The desktop didn't come back, everything was stopped during MagiC initialization.
So I removed the auto run of Jinnee and the basic desk of MagiC worked. In it, I could run Jinnee... That was really strange... Launched by hand, it was ok, but as the auto desktop, it was not.
Just before moving the TT, the system was stable...
So I removed MagiC and installed MinT + MyAES and Jinnee runs fine a the desktop...
I never understood why.
The TT has a Matrix graphic card.

Guillaume.


Just pay attention, when switch Jinee from an AES to the other, you should delete .JIC files created by Jinee before start (this color icon cache system from Jinnee to speed up start on some AES)

Olivier
OL

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby ThorstenOtto » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:55 pm

SoundDoctor wrote:So it looks like one of the following is true:


If i have to guess, i would add

4. Some resource file with color icons was loaded, that TOS 3.06 does not support. Neither WDIALOG nor NVDI will help with this.

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby mpattonm » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:34 am

PSU - +5v and +12v are bang on and stable - so far so good: you can not say this without a scope. Capacitor visual inspection is not sufficient, they are slowly drying and failing.IMO you are dealing with either failing memory chip, or failing power supply, caused by failing capacitor(s). Get yourself a scope and observe voltages on vital components (CPU, chipset, memory), during run time. Check data lines on memory chips.

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby SoundDoctor » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:15 pm

ThorstenOtto wrote:If it were only Jinnee, i would say it is just a configuration problem, but you say that some other apps are also failing. Have you tried some memory tester, like yaart?


A bit of a late and now redundant response - yes, I ran multiple passes with Yaart from a bare bones floppy and both ST and TT ram passed. Thanks.
TT030 10mb/16mb/1Gb, Coco. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Lynxman), 1Gb CF. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Atari) 170mb IDE. Mega 1 big button (mash up badged Mega 4) 4mb (home cooked RAM upgrade) ICD ADSpeed ST OverScan. Mega 2 big button (4mb), Mega 1 small button (4mb home cooked 72pin SIMM slot), 520 STe (SIPPs), 520 STFM (4mb using a Falcon 4mb board + Blitter).

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby SoundDoctor » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:29 pm

ThorstenOtto wrote:
SoundDoctor wrote:So it looks like one of the following is true:


If i have to guess, i would add

4. Some resource file with color icons was loaded, that TOS 3.06 does not support. Neither WDIALOG nor NVDI will help with this.


I went back and did my 'sanity check' of restoring my original HDD image and then installed NVDI. The previous install of jinnee ran perfectly with NVDI installed afterwards. I disabled NVDI except WDIALOG and we were back to two bombs so there is more to getting it to run on TOS 3.06 than the manual suggests. I haven't looked at your suggestion of the colour icons resource yet.
TT030 10mb/16mb/1Gb, Coco. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Lynxman), 1Gb CF. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Atari) 170mb IDE. Mega 1 big button (mash up badged Mega 4) 4mb (home cooked RAM upgrade) ICD ADSpeed ST OverScan. Mega 2 big button (4mb), Mega 1 small button (4mb home cooked 72pin SIMM slot), 520 STe (SIPPs), 520 STFM (4mb using a Falcon 4mb board + Blitter).

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby SoundDoctor » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:30 pm

mpattonm wrote:PSU - +5v and +12v are bang on and stable - so far so good: you can not say this without a scope. Capacitor visual inspection is not sufficient, they are slowly drying and failing.IMO you are dealing with either failing memory chip, or failing power supply, caused by failing capacitor(s). Get yourself a scope and observe voltages on vital components (CPU, chipset, memory), during run time. Check data lines on memory chips.


Nope, I can say that. I did say that, and I knew what I meant when I said it. Of course you are quite correct in your approach for a professional service repair bench. I am an old school field service engineer who places some value on initial insights taken from the macro view using intuition based on experience and current observations. I observed a healthy voltage level from the PSU under load that was stable and that was enough for this first pass. That's all I could establish with what was available to me in my home office at the time although I do use a Multi-Meter with freq so that helps. My scopes are still in storage and are as old if not older than the TT! Not sure if I trust them anymore.

A visual inspection may not be sufficient if the fault condition still cannot be located and everything appears to be OK but it is an entirely valid early trouble shooting step to detect the blindingly obvious e.g. burst cap, burned and blackened component, or corroded traces etc.

The next step was basic triage to rule out certain other likely causes. This helps to narrow the field and give a clearer picture of what might be going on.

Remember most users on this site are retro hobbyists who may not have access to or know how to use a scope. It's excellent to be in a position to apply RTF bench test routines but not everyone has the facilities to do that. For some folks you might as well say "Get yourself back to 1991 and buy a brand new TT030 because that wont have dried out electrolytic caps yet..." for all the help it is to them.

Take time to read all the posts.

I worked out that the Jinnee manual likely contains an incorrect statement vis-a-vis that jinnee will run on vanilla TOS with the WDIALOG included in the jinnee distribution run from the AUTO folder. It doesn't. NVDI or MagiC is needed for a standard jinnee install. It has been suggested by ThorstennOtto that it may be down to a jinnee resource that TOS does not support. I haven't looked into that yet but after I got jinnee running I did disable NVDI except WDIALOG to see if jinnee would run without NVDI but under those conditions an Illegal AES error is displayed so the system requirement claim in the jinnee manual remains dubious and ThorstennOtto may be onto something. jinnee might work with TOS 3.06 and WDIALOG but it is clearly not as simple as the manual suggests.

So for now the hardware appears to be AOK and my TT is now running jinnee under NVDI fine. The memory that is probably failing is the memory installed in my own wetware! I simply couldn't recall if I had seen all this before when installing jinnee on my Falcon 5 years ago.

Thanks for your input but we'd arrive at the desired outcome already before reaching the 'unnecessary deep dive' stage.
TT030 10mb/16mb/1Gb, Coco. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Lynxman), 1Gb CF. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Atari) 170mb IDE. Mega 1 big button (mash up badged Mega 4) 4mb (home cooked RAM upgrade) ICD ADSpeed ST OverScan. Mega 2 big button (4mb), Mega 1 small button (4mb home cooked 72pin SIMM slot), 520 STe (SIPPs), 520 STFM (4mb using a Falcon 4mb board + Blitter).

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby wongck » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:52 am

Glad you got it working now.

I am not surprise at your findings, as mentioned earlier, most if not all software from ASH seems to require MagiC or NVDI.
Even as some like Jinees, the docs mentioned at least Wdialog as a minimum, I found that really NVDI ought to be the minimum.
I don't blame them because it make good marketing eco system.

I found Jinee to be very powerful and even on Magic (when I was on my STFM and later 4MB falcon) I was not able to use it to the full potential. It is a beast to configure with the many configurations, how it looks already took days and that was with only 4 colours, think what will happen now with 32bits colour :lol: I liked that it understand LFN, VFAT and even unix style application run attributes but then using on a STFM, I do not need these features. It was a lot of baggage to carry, so I reverted back to MagiC default desktop (which is pretty good as well.... and understand VFAT, LFN as well).

In any case, enjoy Jinee, it's a great desktop replacement :D
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63 CTPCI ATI RTL8139 USB 512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby Moulinaie » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:01 pm

OL wrote:
Just pay attention, when switch Jinee from an AES to the other, you should delete .JIC files created by Jinee before start (this color icon cache system from Jinnee to speed up start on some AES)

Olivier


Many thanks, that's good to know.
For now, Jinnee is only used with MyAES, no other configuration on this machine.

Guillaume.

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Re: TT 030 can't run Jinee (and some other apps) - two bomb bus error

Postby SoundDoctor » Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:21 pm

wongck wrote:Glad you got it working now.

SNIP!

In any case, enjoy Jinee, it's a great desktop replacement :D


Thanks Wongck :D

and thanks to everyone who took time to respond. It was much appreciated. :cheers:
TT030 10mb/16mb/1Gb, Coco. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Lynxman), 1Gb CF. Falcon 030 Stock 14mb (Atari) 170mb IDE. Mega 1 big button (mash up badged Mega 4) 4mb (home cooked RAM upgrade) ICD ADSpeed ST OverScan. Mega 2 big button (4mb), Mega 1 small button (4mb home cooked 72pin SIMM slot), 520 STe (SIPPs), 520 STFM (4mb using a Falcon 4mb board + Blitter).


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