FPGA graphic card

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FPGA graphic card

Postby qq1975b » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:44 pm

The Atari TT is a powerful machine that has an important weak point: graphics.
It has a high resolution mode (1280x960 monochrome) but needs a very good ECL to VGA adapter.
VME graphic cards are very rare, difficult and expensive to have.
There are also other possible solutions like NOVA ISA-VME adapter but has the problem of finding reliable working cards and seem to be nice but slow: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26305&p=266933#p266853

This topic is about a possible FPGA solution to this gfx card problem for TT&MSTE&Mega ST (and possibly for ST&stock Falcon too).

This has been discussed in this topic: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26305&p=266933#p266872 (I will attach an extract of the posts in the next post)...But it would be better to follow it here to don't mess other topics.

Thanks!
Last edited by qq1975b on Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby qq1975b » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:46 pm

From: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26305&p=266933#p266872

MasterOfGizmo wrote:I once designed one of these vga to et4000 adaptors. Stga anyone?

The isa bus timing isn't well specified and the bus timing of the various vga chips varies as well. I remember sitting hours over the 68000 and et4000 data sheets to verify that they'll work together without too much glue logic. They do. But that's not necessarily true for any other vga chip as well.

Next downside: the isa bus is slow. Slower than the standard 68000 bus. A vga card thus is awfully slow.

Regarding drivers: vga only defines the standard registers of ibms original vga card. Any resolution you guys are interested in is super vga or better. There's no standard for the register layout of that. Vga cards came with custom vga bios (aka a driver) on board. Plus they all have their own windows and linux drivers because of that. Even two et4000 cards can differ so much that a driver needs to test for the available video clocks and the like. I had a hard time getting only a few different et4000 cards to work with my driver.

I'd really suggest the fpga route. You could even create planar video modes that way. This would allow tos to use it with minimal drivers. There many examples for fpga video controller implementations. E.g. every single core available for the mist board contains one. Even a built-in blitter can be added. The result would be way cheaper and much more reliable than any setup relying on 25 year old graphics cards.


From viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26305&p=266933#p266890

rpineau wrote:So .. are you volunteering to make the FPGA code for a VGA controller ? :wink:
I agree that the FPGA route is probably better but may be we should start a new thread for this ?
Would some of the MiST developer be interested to help on this ? (because I can do CPLD but I never did anything with FPGA and all the env to develop for FPGA are Windows only ... ), but I'm willing to learn. If, as you said, it's cheaper, I'm sure there would be a lot of people interested as a video card could be made not just for the VME bus but also for the Mega bus, Falcon bus and for STF, directly on a socket on the CPU. The interfaces as almost identical in all these case so the change for each bus would be minimal.

Rodolphe



ctirad wrote:
rpineau wrote:So .. are you volunteering to make the FPGA code for a VGA controller ?


I'm already working on it. From the FPGA you can quite easily stream DVI/HDMI directly. If you will mirror the whole 4MB space you can easily ouptut the actual VRAM space with a timming suitable for a modern displays. Next step will be the FVDI(?) driver that would allow to use custom graphics modes. Firstly only as a simple framebufer (most Atari GFX boards are used only as an framebuffer anyway). Final step will be to add some acceleration. Of course related to VDI needs.

From my point of view this is much simpler and celaner solution than bother with an antic BUS interfaces and VGA cards.


ctirad wrote:
rpineau wrote:I think not having VGA is fine as it makes the card simpler and lower the over final cost.
What resolution will be supported ? Bit depth ?


The resolution should be up to at least 720p depending on the FPGA used in the production version.
The DVI(HDMI) streams allways 8+2 bits of color insformation per RGB, thus everything from mono to 24bit TC is possible.

Will the whole design be open source (open hardware) ?


It is too early to tell. My hardware is usually not opensource, but on the other side for a later fVDI work and acceleration I will definitely need a help from a good programmer.
Last edited by qq1975b on Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby rpineau » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:13 pm

Cool. Thanks for opening the thread.
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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby qq1975b » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:58 pm

Thanks to all of you that are always thinking and making amazing new atari hardware :D
It is really exciting seeing these projects and ideas improving and some getting finished :)
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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby rpineau » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:23 am

The MegaSTE VME address space is 4MB so we can do 1280x720p in 24 bit which 2700MB ( a little bit under 2.7MB). So we can't double buffer it at this resolution as this would be over 4MB (but I'll still use it even if "slow"). Another way could be to use the FPGA to buffer swap 2x 4MB bank to do double buffering.
As for the speed, we know VME is not as fast as the main memory but that's fine with me (ISA on VME would even be slower).
As for the ST/STF as this would be directly on the CPU bus we can definitely have 8MB of video ram there, we can do 0 wait state. Same on the Falcon using the expansion bus (assuming the Falcon only uses 4Mb so that we can map 8MB of RAM for the Video).

Of course there are a lot of way to do bank switching on less memory space to allow for more video memory using less address space, but this would not work as a flat frame buffer.
I think a flat 3MB (or 4MB which gives some memory for out of screen buffer allowing the futur blitter like option do directly blit things like sprite and font that could be stored there, avoiding the need to go trough a VME transfer) flat frame buffer to start with is a good option to do 1280x720p.

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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby mfro » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:39 am

Great initiative!

One suggestion: I know it would of course cause additional efforts but I'd consider creation of an FPGA-based VME graphics card without integration of an ethernet solution a missed chance for the "ultimate TT add-on".
It would be a shame not considering it, IMHO.

May be you even thought about it already, by any chance?

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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby qq1975b » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:39 am

Hi,

I have some questions:

The TT can handle 32MB ST Ram and lots of TT RAM...so no memory problem there.
The Falcon without CT60/63 can only handle 14MB ST RAM (or ST+TT ram)
The MSTE can handle 4MB ST RAM (and 8 MB extra TT Ram but there is not board developed here)
The Mega ST can handle 4MB ST RAM+8MB Alt RAM (alanh's Alt RAM or Marpet XTRA RAM+)

The graphic card will use ST RAM space or it can use TT RAM space? ST RAM is a very valuable resource...but not the TT RAM because is less used usually.

If it needs to use ST RAM space...won't be 1 or 2MB RAM for the gfx card enough? If it is TT RAM, won't be 4MB RAM enough (due to Falcon's 14MB limitation... is not good to spend lot of RAM there...)?

In Amiga world some of the most relevant gfx cards uses 2MB (Picasso 2 zorro II slot for A2000 that can handle 8MB RAM maximum besides 1MB chip RAM) or 4MB (Cybervision 64/64 3D and Picasso IV for Zorro III machines without low limit on fastram amount).

I suppose that using HDMI or VGA out means that it would have an integrated scandoubler as the TT, right?

Just to learn.

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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby shoggoth » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:49 am

qq1975b wrote:The TT can handle 32MB ST Ram and lots of TT RAM...so no memory problem there.


I highly doubt the TT can handle 32MB STRAM; the TT Shifter and SDMA wouldn't agree.

The Falcon without CT60/63 can only handle 14MB ST RAM (or ST+TT ram)


14MB STRAM + 512MB TTRAM + 128MB Video RAM, in case of a SuperVidel-setup :)

For stock falcon, you'll have to sacrifice STRAM, because there aren't enough address signals.

The graphic card will use ST RAM space or it can use TT RAM space? ST RAM is a very valuable resource...but not the TT RAM because is less used usually.


I'd go with TTRAM simply because the STRAM bandwidth (or lack thereof) really starts to kill performance when you add some more colour/resolution. The SuperVidel approach gives the best of two worlds, since it snoops STRAM accesses, making it possible to have framebuffers both in STRAM and video ram.

I suppose that using HDMI or VGA out means that it would have an integrated scandoubler as the TT, right?


There is no scandoubler in the TT. Scandoublers are an Amiga artefact.
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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby qq1975b » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:21 am

Yes...I have read on Atari Documentation Archive that the TT's motherboard can have 8MB Ram and the card another 8MB, so 16MB ST RAM in total...but...in TT Headquarters (where I cannot visit now I don't know why) I read a brochure in german that said 32 MB ST RAM...I suppose it must be a mistake.

SuperVidel is the BOARD...the Ultimate graphic board for the Falcon. Impressive. :D

I meant scandoubler as the way the PC monitor through VGA can handle the ST color resolutions...that is not possible without a RGB to VGA converter on an Atari ST. My mistake in using wrong terms :(
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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby mfro » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:36 am

qq1975b wrote:The graphic card will use ST RAM space or it can use TT RAM space? ST RAM is a very valuable resource...but not the TT RAM because is less used usually.


The graphics card will need to bring its own memory with it on the board.

Both "VME-capable" machines have (ATARI-) defined address spaces for the VME bus: STE $A00000 to $DEFFFF (4 MBytes), TT $FE000000 to $FEFEFFFF (16 MBytes). So there is no ST/TTRAM choice, it's VME-RAM ;).

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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby joska » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:52 am

shoggoth wrote:For stock falcon, you'll have to sacrifice STRAM, because there aren't enough address signals.


Not necessarily. You can do it like the Eclipse does it, use the MMU to map the video RAM through a small window (256kb or so IIRC) at the top of ST-RAM. That would hurt performance a bit though, but will still be a lot faster than the Videl.
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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby ctirad » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:37 am

qq1975b wrote:The Falcon without CT60/63 can only handle 14MB ST RAM (or ST+TT ram)


The Falcon version will be tricky if we want to use space above 14MB. There are Eclipse PCI board that uses MMU tricks to achieve that.
The Falcon will require a sepecially designed version of the board and everything, anyway.

The graphic card will use ST RAM space or it can use TT RAM space?


No. There is no reason why it should use ST RAM space. The plan for the ST/E version is to fit 16MB of SDRAM. There first 4MB will be used for s ST-RAM shadow, 8MB for ALT-RAM and VRAM and the last 4MB for either alternate VRAM space (banked) or an buffer space for internal usage.

I suppose that using HDMI or VGA out means that it would have an integrated scandoubler as the TT, right?


TT has native VGA and no scandoubler, same as Falcon. The scandoubler means the video is originally generated with unsuitable frequency (typically PAL/NTSC) for a VGA and has to be regenerated using additional device that will sample the lines or whole frames and generate the new timings, usally doubled or even completely unrelated. We don't need anything like that in newly designed card.
However, for outputting standard ST modes there will be chalenge to keep all the trickery like pallete switching and overscan.

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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby shoggoth » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:58 am

joska wrote:
shoggoth wrote:For stock falcon, you'll have to sacrifice STRAM, because there aren't enough address signals.


Not necessarily. You can do it like the Eclipse does it, use the MMU to map the video RAM through a small window (256kb or so IIRC) at the top of ST-RAM. That would hurt performance a bit though, but will still be a lot faster than the Videl.


Yep, indeed technically possible.
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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby shoggoth » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:01 pm

qq1975b wrote:Yes...I have read on Atari Documentation Archive that the TT's motherboard can have 8MB Ram and the card another 8MB, so 16MB ST RAM in total...but...in TT Headquarters (where I cannot visit now I don't know why) I read a brochure in german that said 32 MB ST RAM...I suppose it must be a mistake.


Brochure is most likely wrong; STRAM bus is 24-bit. Either way it's not critical, most software prefers TTRAM when available.

I meant scandoubler as the way the PC monitor through VGA can handle the ST color resolutions...that is not possible without a RGB to VGA converter on an Atari ST. My mistake in using wrong terms :(


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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby troed » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:32 pm

qq1975b wrote:This topic is about a possible FPGA solution to this gfx card problem for TT&MSTE&Mega ST (and possibly for ST&stock Falcon too).


I'd be very interested in HDMI out on my ST's (Mega, E etc) - but only if 100% compatible with even the trickiest demo sync abuse ;) The "market" for making retro equipment compatible with modern hardware should be somewhat bigger than in exotic extensions with little software support.

(Not to dissuade at all from the technical challenge into making such extensions - which I fully support all in itself)

/Troed

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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby Cyprian » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:37 pm

qq1975b wrote:The TT can handle 32MB ST Ram and lots of TT RAM...so no memory problem there.
The Falcon without CT60/63 can only handle 14MB ST RAM (or ST+TT ram)
The MSTE can handle 4MB ST RAM (and 8 MB extra TT Ram but there is not board developed here)
The Mega ST can handle 4MB ST RAM+8MB Alt RAM (alanh's Alt RAM or Marpet XTRA RAM+)


all those machines can handle max. 14MB ST-RAM (ST series needs e.g. xtra ram+)

In case of Falcon, If I remember correctly CPU also can handle TT-ram. It has all needed signals, but some of them (A24-A31) are just not used by the motherboard.
Therefore, maybe TT/Falcon could share the same FPGA daughter-board put on-top of the CPU?
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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby Guest » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:50 pm

you can have a max of 10MB stram not 14MB
8 MB card and 2MB onboard this is a tos issue and the image of it as needed
i know this is a fact because i added 8MB onboard and and 8MB card
and it counts to 10MB and stops {sysinfo shows 10MB}
you can also have upto 4MB on the VME bus it will run 1 wait state slower than stram

and upto 138GB on the TTRAM bus as its controlled by the MMU inside the 60030 so is faster
and wider

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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby Cyprian » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:57 pm

simbo2 wrote:you can have a max of 10MB stram not 14MB

yep, you right. 2MB ST-Ram on the motherboard plus 8MB-Ram on a daughter-board.
but I heard about the TT ST-Ram modifications - e.g. from you to 12MB ST-Ram :)
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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby ctirad » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:47 pm

shoggoth wrote:Brochure is most likely wrong; STRAM bus is 24-bit.


ST-RAM BUS is not 24bit by any means. The 68000 has 24bit ADDRESS bus, which menas it can address up to 2^24 = 16MB and 16bit data bus. BUT in the computer address space is not just a RAM. There is also a ROM, ROMPORT, chipset I/O space and some reserved areas, which occupy the 2MB space. So you have 14MB of address space left. The chipset in ST/E is designed to address 4MB of RAM, that is ST-RAM. So you have 10MB left for another RAM, you can map there a FastRAM (TT-RAM, ALt-Ram, wahtever RAM, that are just different names for the same thing) or a graphics card, which is also in fact only another block of RAM from the CPU point of view.

The Falcon (and TT) chipset can address the whole free space under the 16MB as an ST-RAM. On the Falcon, unfortunatelly, it is also the maximal size of the total RAM, because the expansion connector Address BUS is crippled to 24bit. The only way how to have RAM above 14MB is to use a banks and MMU tricks or install a accelerator board with its own CPU and memory controller like CT2, AB040 or CT6x.
The TT can have FastRAM above 16MB out of the box.

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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby shoggoth » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:24 pm

ctirad wrote:
shoggoth wrote:Brochure is most likely wrong; STRAM bus is 24-bit.


ST-RAM BUS is not 24bit by any means. The 68000 has 24bit ADDRESS bus, which menas it can address up to 2^24 = 16MB and 16bit data bus. BUT in the computer address space is not just a RAM. There is also a ROM, ROMPORT, chipset I/O space and some reserved areas, which occupy the 2MB space. So you have 14MB of address space left. The chipset in ST/E is designed to address 4MB of RAM, that is ST-RAM. So you have 10MB left for another RAM, you can map there a FastRAM (TT-RAM, ALt-Ram, wahtever RAM, that are just different names for the same thing) or a graphics card, which is also in fact only another block of RAM from the CPU point of view.

The Falcon (and TT) chipset can address the whole free space under the 16MB as an ST-RAM. On the Falcon, unfortunatelly, it is also the maximal size of the total RAM, because the expansion connector Address BUS is crippled to 24bit. The only way how to have RAM above 14MB is to use a banks and MMU tricks or install a accelerator board with its own CPU and memory controller like CT2, AB040 or CT6x.
The TT can have FastRAM above 16MB out of the box.


I was referring to the address bus - obviously.
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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby Cyprian » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:28 pm

ctirad wrote:The only way how to have RAM above 14MB is to use a banks and MMU tricks or install a accelerator board with its own CPU and memory controller

what about daughter-board put onto 68030? CPU in Falcon has all needed address pins (A24-A31).
In that way we would avoid MMU memory swaps.
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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby ctirad » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:10 pm

The 68030 in the Falcon is a SMD part directly soldered to the motherboard. In addition it is not clear that the missing signals are really present on the CPU itself.

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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby rpineau » Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:04 pm

@ctirad, any update ? Or have you not had time to work on this ?
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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby ctirad » Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:37 pm

I bought miniSpartan6+ as a development platfrom http://www.scarabhardware.com/minispartan6/

The inital tests with HDMI out work nicely. Now I have to create an interface that will connect the kit to megabus in order to start some real development. Unfortunatelly, I have some serious health issues since April and thus I don't have a right mood to develop anything :(

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Re: FPGA graphic card

Postby rpineau » Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:33 am

Thanks for the update.
Take care of yourself first, anything else is of no importance when health is involve.
I wish you a good and fast recovery.

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