Falcon Problem (Solved)

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Falcon Problem (Solved)

Postby paul92706 » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:45 pm

Hi guys,
I recently aquired a Pal Falcon motherboard. This motherboard i aquired had very extensive damage to the MPU pad and traces. Over hours of rework and repair, i replaced mostly all IC's on the Motherboard, Combel, Videl, DSP, SRAM, MPU, DMA, all new caps on Reset circuitry, new GAL's, NVRAM. Upon my rework i triple checked all my work and made sure there was no short circuits or any other issues, and all checked out good. Now at poweron all i get is the Atari Logo and Fuji sign, and it seems to hang there. It doesn't get to the memory test or TOS/GEM. I asume there is a problem at fetching instructions at EPROM. I also triple checked the EPROM circuitry to make sure there wasn't any known problem, all checked out fine. What i did was attach a logic analyzer to the MPU and it seems to be floating address's. I asume there maybe something wrong at fetch cycle? does anyone know what else i can do here? also, when i attach my CT60 to this motherboard, it works fine, so i asume the MPU is granting the bus to the CT60 fine, but when i switch out to 030 mode it hangs again. Also this is not an NVRAM or PSU problem just to let you know. whats your guys opinion on this, as i am all out of ideas here... and lots of headaches :x
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby AdamK » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:23 pm

IIRC, CT60 does not use ROM on motherboard (in 060 mode, for sure)
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:07 am

AdamK wrote:IIRC, CT60 does not use ROM on motherboard (in 060 mode, for sure)

you are correct it doesn't, i believe it uses the Flash ROM on the CT60 itself.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:50 am

As you are getting the logo TOS has to be running so that is a good thing..

You really need to know what comes next after the logo in TOS. I would assume TOS will try and access the floppy drive before it counts ST ram and other things.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:01 pm

exxos wrote:As you are getting the logo TOS has to be running so that is a good thing..

You really need to know what comes next after the logo in TOS. I would assume TOS will try and access the floppy drive before it counts ST ram and other things.

Hi exxos, it doesnt get to accessing the Floppy drive, I was told to check signals from MPU to Combel, and i did all is good. Very strange problem
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:04 pm

Have you looked at the Atari service manual ? Be it probably for ST range, but it would show the boot sequence of TOS ? Probably its waiting for a ack line from something and never getting it, so it gets stuck..
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:18 pm

exxos wrote:Have you looked at the Atari service manual ? Be it probably for ST range, but it would show the boot sequence of TOS ? Probably its waiting for a ack line from something and never getting it, so it gets stuck..

Ya i am pretty much feeding off the Atari service manual as i go. I used my 16 channel logic analyzer, as its not sufficient for full decoding, but it seems that the ack line is in proper state, for every read cycle. I captured (sampled) a few nano secs, at power-on and all seems to be asserting correctly, the /AS and /DS and DSACK and R/W are all asserting at right times. I was begining to think maybe the MPU i ordered? i believe its a Malaysia type processor, the model MC68030FE25C quad pack. I downloaded the data sheets and all signals are exactly the same to that on schematic of Falcon. So i doubt its the MPU, i am begining to think the rework i done to the traces, could the trace resistance be a factor to this?? as i used standard copper wire to do all my trace rework, which were a tad bit under sized to the original traces.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:25 pm

I doubt wire resistance would cause that much of a problem. It it was, im sure you would get all sorts of corruption on the screen. I never worked on fixing Falcon hardware before (other than my own ) but have you tried removing the WD1772 and see what happens. Normally if that is missing it will bomb out. At least you can see if it gets stuck before or after floppy access. I don't know what comes before that, probably keyboard ? Unplugging it should give you the repeated click sounds if it gets that far. Not sure what else happens during boot up.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:11 pm

exxos wrote:I doubt wire resistance would cause that much of a problem. It it was, im sure you would get all sorts of corruption on the screen. I never worked on fixing Falcon hardware before (other than my own ) but have you tried removing the WD1772 and see what happens. Normally if that is missing it will bomb out. At least you can see if it gets stuck before or after floppy access. I don't know what comes before that, probably keyboard ? Unplugging it should give you the repeated click sounds if it gets that far. Not sure what else happens during boot up.

I would hate to remove the AJAX IC as it is DIP style and probably only way to remove it is to cut it of, similar to NVRAM. But funny thing is my floppy was working fine with CT60 would this mean i could exclude the AJAX? if it was working with CT60 installed?
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:19 pm

I did not realise it was working with CT60. Doesn't the CT60 use the 030 CPU for some things anyway ? That would pretty much rule out a lot of things. A ST ram test would verify good 030 operation if that can be done with CT60 installed.

It would seem to be some odd problem with TOS then I would assume. Is the 030 bus still active after the logo comes up ? normally any errors give the bombs, but never known TOS just to sit there like that, unless your TOS is just simply bad, or pure fluke it boots and there is a dataline missing preventing it from accessing higher up TOS locations. Could be a fluke that TOS is wanting to run the next routine, but a failed address line is causing it to bounce back a few instructions to display the logo again, and its stuck in a loop displaying the logo. Could be highly unlikely, but worth checking out all the TOS address lines are active.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:19 am

exxos wrote:I did not realise it was working with CT60. Doesn't the CT60 use the 030 CPU for some things anyway ? That would pretty much rule out a lot of things. A ST ram test would verify good 030 operation if that can be done with CT60 installed.

It would seem to be some odd problem with TOS then I would assume. Is the 030 bus still active after the logo comes up ? normally any errors give the bombs, but never known TOS just to sit there like that, unless your TOS is just simply bad, or pure fluke it boots and there is a dataline missing preventing it from accessing higher up TOS locations. Could be a fluke that TOS is wanting to run the next routine, but a failed address line is causing it to bounce back a few instructions to display the logo again, and its stuck in a loop displaying the logo. Could be highly unlikely, but worth checking out all the TOS address lines are active.

Ya it uses the 030 for the Control Bus (/BR, /BGRANT,/BACK) for Mastership of the Bus. Ok right at power on the first few nano seconds, there is instruction execution, the /AS and /DS and /DSACK,R/W, Function Control signals, are all being asserted properly and address's are being floated properly. After the that the logo apears and all signals come to a pause, but there seems to be garbage address's being floated but all other signals have stopped. Also with the logic analyzer i did decode the starting address going from $000002-$000006, then jumps into TOS $E00030 then it proceeds all the way down to $E0000FE. During the count i did notice alot of loops, like for example $E000B4, $E00000F0, and alot others. Is the MPU suppose to loop address's like that? or count in sequence? or ??? By i think your right, Tos is wanting to run the next routine but failes at address line, causing it to bounce backwards. Hmmm what could cause this chaos? I just ordered a 32channel logic analyzer from ebay so i should be getting it in about 2 weeks i hope. Oh i also did a continuity test on the EPROM (TOS) circuitry at data/address lines and all checked out good, hmmm strange huh?
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:34 am

Assume you tried a new set of TOS roms and also checked for shorted between the address lines ? Cant really think of anything else :(
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby Dal » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:29 am

You have got the keyboard plugged in, right?
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:24 pm

Dal wrote:You have got the keyboard plugged in, right?

lol, yes, this is far beyond a connected keyboard. :wink:
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby Dal » Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:04 pm

OK - we as long as you've tried with another keyboard just to be doubly sure (I've seen similar behaviour). It's going to be something really daft given it got as far as showing the Atari Logo

You may also try resetting the NVRAM (left ALT + CONTROL + right SHIFT + UNDO on boot).
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby Hippy Dave » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:15 pm

paul92706 wrote:could the trace resistance be a factor to this?? as i used standard copper wire to do all my trace rework, which were a tad bit under sized to the original traces.

It may be the Inductance of the wires. Try to route the wires closely over the ground plane, and keep them short. Tack the wire down with super glue. If you are repairing broken traces, route each wire over its old trace, use good sections of the old traces too.

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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:59 pm

Dal wrote:OK - we as long as you've tried with another keyboard just to be doubly sure (I've seen similar behaviour). It's going to be something really daft given it got as far as showing the Atari Logo

You may also try resetting the NVRAM (left ALT + CONTROL + right SHIFT + UNDO on boot).

Ya, i was going over the Service guide and looks like it might be some problem either intializing a component or also Rom writing to Ram, because it doesn't even get to the Floppy drive let alone Harddrive init.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:59 pm

HippyDave: Yes i used very very thin splices of wire and layed it down on the old trace path very carefully and fluxxed and soldered, using a Stereo microscope. Then i used Epoxy to cover up any exposed new trace i layed down. The rework looks pretty good and there is continuity flowing threw each and every trace i layed down. I also heard of something called Cross Talk? could a signal be crossing over and interrupting the other signal and confusing it? causing a change of Address? just a though that came up in my head.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby Hippy Dave » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:36 pm

I don't think it is crosstalk or the wiring. I would double check the eprom code, and give the board another visual inspection, check for missing capacitors, broken resistors (can be broken in two and not visible -- use dental pick).

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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:13 pm

Hippy Dave wrote:I don't think it is crosstalk or the wiring. I would double check the eprom code, and give the board another visual inspection, check for missing capacitors, broken resistors (can be broken in two and not visible -- use dental pick).

I have tried 3 different Eproms, and all the same, i have inspected this board for months, and i can't find any damaged or cut, or anyother funny looking circuits. One thing i do notice, is at times, this is crazy, but when i do a continuity check at Vcc power rail to ground there is continuity, and the funny part is at times when i check again, there is not continuity, this is freakin wierd as hell!!! it seems to appear then disappear??? could this be a capacitor leaking?? what in the world would cause this??? and the other funny thing is the board powers on fine with out any problems with shorting. :coffe:
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:28 pm

You will read a short because of the caps on the supply rail. Just discharge any old cap, but meter across it, meter will beep until the cap charges enough for the meter to stop beeping. It also can matter which way around your probes go if the caps already have a charge. Try on voltage setting instead ;)
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:50 pm

exxos wrote:You will read a short because of the caps on the supply rail. Just discharge any old cap, but meter across it, meter will beep until the cap charges enough for the meter to stop beeping. It also can matter which way around your probes go if the caps already have a charge. Try on voltage setting instead ;)

thats pretty much what i though, but i honestly though it would beep momentarily, but this beep is constant. So exxos any other bright ideas about this head banging breaking problem with my Falcon mobo? or should i just wait until i get my 32channel logic analyzer and do the full address range decoding and see what i can debug? :roll:
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:02 pm

ST's are more my thing ;)

Though not sure if you said, but you have got a ST-RAM card plugged into your falcon haven't you ? TOS may well bring up the logo without RAM, though it wouldn't be able to do anything much I would imagine.

Also, when the CT60 is unplugged there is a small jumper link you have to put on the connector somewhere (not sure what it does but must be there for a reason lol )
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:06 pm

exxos wrote:ST's are more my thing ;)

Though not sure if you said, but you have got a ST-RAM card plugged into your falcon haven't you ? TOS may well bring up the logo without RAM, though it wouldn't be able to do anything much I would imagine.

Also, when the CT60 is unplugged there is a small jumper link you have to put on the connector somewhere (not sure what it does but must be there for a reason lol )

Correct, i have a 14mb card installed. Yes there's deffinitley a jumper that needs to be set pin 20-22 on J20 at Expansion bus, its the Bus Grant signal.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:08 pm

So just out of curiosity , what happens if you remove the RAM card and turn on in 030 mode ?
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