Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

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rpineau
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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby rpineau » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:02 pm

qq1975b wrote:This will require an ATI Mach 64 ISA, right? very difficult to find one :(

Building a VME gfx card based on fpga cpu is lot more complicated, I suppose :(


It is more complicated. Nature did so for the CT60/63 with their SuperVIDEL. It's 100% done with some ram and a FPGA.
I can do basic CPLG stuff but designing a video card using a FPGA is not something I can do (may be one day).
If Nature was to make one the question is then how many people would buy one ?
I looked around at open hardware stuff and most of the FPGA video "card" design available out there are very limited in resolution.
So we would need to find someone that can design a video controller, probably with both VGA and HDMI/DVI output and a decent resolution (at least 800x600 in 65K color, ideally 1024x168 in 24 bits. All of this without knowing how many they can sale.. this could become costly for the person/company doing this. Add to that the software side as we would need drivers (I thing doing a FVDI driver is the best option there).

So this is a lot harder than just doing an ISA VME adapter for which we already have the schematics and find the right card for which we have the driver. If we want different cards we can then look for datasheet of video controllers and write FVDI drivers.

The lack of VMD graphic card has been an issue for a long time and a cheap solution to this would be more than welcome. The current VME-ISA schematics we have can be adapter to the Falcon bus easily as well as the Mega ST bus. For the STF, we can make a CPU adapter as all the signals are there (we would need to encode the interrupt signal but that's not hard to do). For the STE.. we would need a PLCC adapter (or a PLCC to DIL adapter and then use the same ISA adapter on it).

Rodolphe
Falcon + AB040 + Eclipse PCI + ATI Rage VGA card + NE2000 Ethernec + HxC Floppy Emulator
MegaSTE 4MB + CosmosEx / 1040 STF for hardware dev
http://www.rti-zone.org/atari.php

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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby Guest » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:36 pm

there is versions for the st/ mega and the falcon
i think as usual the falcon would need a heavy solder
not worth making
the ste not sure
the mega st if people asked ... i would make an amount
im happy drawing away i like using proteus its an old pal ... fits me like a glove
im only human and do make mistakes
most i have to find by check and recheck recursion
ill start after tea time to wire up the rest of the board {easy in four layers }
just need the questions answered
what is the other jumper for i know block 6 way jp 1 is for the type of machine switch {address range}
so is the other jumper also the same 1-2 = TT 2-3 = mega STE


tip is go to the local computer recycle center there are a few dotted around the uk
they have shelfs and bins full of old IO card and VGA lan etc
lots and lots of ISA
if you dont ask you dont get...!! usually the boards are ground and the dust of the ground and refined
to reclaim the metals and rare earth metals the ic's contain

and MEGA cheep... usually flat rate a £5 er
you'll find what you need there
where do you think these guys on ebay find these inflated price cards???
and sell them too the retro hungry
europe is full of these centers also
{eu directive} most working or better than 486 are exported with the likes of linux or windows 98 osr2 too other shores
for kids schools and simple offices as we know old computers are just as good
if you dont know the system its better too use a slow machine

also visit your relatives
you'll be shocked what they can produce from there cupboard

the other day a pal gave me yet another amstrad laptop { :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: }

its a large grunter of a breeze block ... X2

but again i find a third pair now of half height 3.5 inch drive units
720K {as it was a 286} and DD
fits first time too an atari {any}

and gives you drive A and B inside the case just tape the units together
few adjustments
and a dremil and away you go A and B drive no external
you can then choose to flick a switch and use the external port as one of these virtual usb floppy emus...
they are only i think 4 disks worth thick...

best thing amstrad every made
the half height drives you also find in IBM very old notebooks 386 machines
not sure the maker... no labels or idents.,..

well now it is at the time all it could say was "Please Wait"
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby Guest » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:31 pm

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26305&start=25#p266749
one page back
where the files :contract: are
:coffe:

fully routed now
questions i have with no answers yet??
well easy ones
without me routing around like a hog
keep the wheels oiled and find me answers please :|
1} what is the other jumper for ??? as i need to add the detail too the pcb silk screens
2} is the design acceptable ??? ive changed a few bits so look over the schematic the LA22
and added bypass caps too the logic
i dont like the older design its too up the TTs ass...for any form of development
and this does not sit well with me with future stuff....
so the extend to the back port is needed
what ports and widths too add or another set of plugs two isa slots will work ? im sure ive seen this
3} how many will i make 5/10 as a run?? i dont want left with boards
4} how many of the extender boards will i make 10 - 20??
5} who exactly !!! made the nova board design
and when so i can include there details on the boards naming
i suppose i should look this detail out...!!!!
6} are the pcb pads correctly alligned for an isa socket ie ABCD ports ..??to pads

need to check this
but i think they are...
i built the isa plugs sockets etc and schematic parts many years ago
only now do i find they were all 2-5th out

i also made interface cards slots .. all numbered
ie a slot interface card side...
so if someone does want too make a card with fpga and ports
then im up for adding ... and drawing no probs

and i know how pcbs work and design of them
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.

rpineau
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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby rpineau » Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:42 pm

The issue is that you're the only one using proteus. So it's hard to verify all the stuff you do just from PDF files.
We (me and others here) are all using Eagle (I have VME blank board and all as Eagle part). We know you do a great job with your PCB in proteus so we tend to trust you :).
The advantage of Eagle is that we can all get the free version to at least load schematics and board to check them (I personally have the hobbyist version so that I can got up the Eurocard size and 6 layers, and even then it's still cheap). also Eagle is multi platform... proteus is Windows only.

So.. we chose to trust you :) which is why nobody has closely checked what you did. If you followed the original diagram (and only added caps as they are indeed missing) then all should be fine.
The jumper is selecting between TT and MSTE addresses as far as I know. So it probably limit the addressable size for a MSTE whereas it allows more memory space on a TT (4MB on MSTE only for the VME A24:D16 as it's in the ST RAM, 16MB on TT for A24:D16). This jumper allows A22 to be routed or pull down to ground thus limiting the address space.


Rodolphe
Falcon + AB040 + Eclipse PCI + ATI Rage VGA card + NE2000 Ethernec + HxC Floppy Emulator
MegaSTE 4MB + CosmosEx / 1040 STF for hardware dev
http://www.rti-zone.org/atari.php

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qq1975b
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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby qq1975b » Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:53 pm

At a price range between 120-150€ 50 people showed interest in a VME gfx card: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25343&p=235524#p235524
Trying to learn...

Guest

Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby Guest » Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:03 pm

not sure this answers any of the questions i need answered

see post above :megaphone:
you want the board

you asked me to so help me .. fill the details please :|

when i do a design i make a POA a plan of actions

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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby rpineau » Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:13 pm

I'll take a board... IF there are drivers for MSTE and we can find ISA cards... so that is a big IF and I think that is the problem we all have here..

As for the extension, sure I'll take one.

Rodolphe
Falcon + AB040 + Eclipse PCI + ATI Rage VGA card + NE2000 Ethernec + HxC Floppy Emulator
MegaSTE 4MB + CosmosEx / 1040 STF for hardware dev
http://www.rti-zone.org/atari.php

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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby Guest » Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:20 pm

this topic is about building this interface
not a discussion of the merits nor the accepts of the interface
just how to build it and files to build it using
and also a place to get one if you dont have the accepts to diy
not the hyberblie of non accept related posts
stick too the point as the topic becomes bloated now.... with rubbish
some of it mine while i got my head around it :angel:
ie
people asked me to draw and build it {3} yet nobody answers my simple questions above....
so i have we now have to perfect it and gain the pcbs and bits needed
to achieve the goal
perhaps others will want one or both of the made up boards

dont mind doin it ill make a few quid and my own TT a bit more equipped

but keep on the track
a topic at the beginning of the post pointing to a list of stuff {mostly franks photos}
and then one post with the design

need to trim as you go with this post

wish i was still a mod... :mrgreen:

Guest

Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby Guest » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:22 pm

listen
its no joke
peoples machine depend on this data
so be warned be accurate here
....not just me
ive done my bit :contract:
mostly done now
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26305&start=25#p266749
one page back
where the files :contract: are
:coffe:
fully routed now
aok... hope so....
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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qq1975b
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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby qq1975b » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:25 pm

I would like to have one too if possible.
Trying to learn...

Guest

Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby Guest » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:27 pm

help me find the answers to the questions a few post up please...

Guest

Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby Guest » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:43 pm

post away please answer my questions in the posts above...

then tomorrow i can make more progress...
night Yellow_Colorz_PDT_11
this was not going to go away
its correct .. checked
oooooooo im off too sleep for 30 hrs ...
only thing im waking up for is tea and soup and the old firm match,,,
cant wait too see rangers dumbed up yet again,. :arrow: :lol: .

so the whole design is as it should be im quite sure 95% or so
other than some jumper settings on the pcb silk print and also a tidy of the tracks
space between pins tracking etc
my german isnt good .,.
and not any detail
also a resistor with no value
i guestimate is 1K
so.... and no bypass caps
i cant believe the original design had no caps???
no wonder it was unstable {i read}
so hopefully a revision may fix it
it was very easy too lay out the board
but i can tell you if you use an auto router like proteus ares one
its not at all good for 2 layers
its just generates garbage
elektra router isnt much better 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 layer but they both do 10 layers like magic....

best done by draw pen and ink by layer and in your minds eye on the fly
this had too be a four layer board all the way
sorry
the extension board was needed anyway...
just too put everything in one place now

and you can plug in direct
the adapter + the isa card on
the interface
i looked at many pics dont see these extender cards used???? :| in atari??

so having one is a good tool :cheers:

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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby qq1975b » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:48 am

mmmm...Only ATI Mach64/32 and some ET4000 are compatible with VME Nova as Frank told me. Very difficult and expensive to get one :(. Trident and others are not compatible with VME Nova if I understood well :(

(Sorry Sim, but I think this is important to know besides the answer to your questions , of course!)
Trying to learn...

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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby frank.lukas » Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:56 am

The Nova needs c-programmer to add some other nice ISA cards ...
fancy Atari Musik anDA Dance "Agare Hinu Harukana" 1998 ATARI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX10fxb5eYE

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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby Guest » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:42 pm

the programming needed isnt hard as there is a base setup too work
its getting info on the cards devices can be a problem i would think

the industry standard setup for ISA is the same for all isa cards
in vga mode ...much as a pc just uses one driver for vga for all vga cards

not sure why there is even an issue

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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:34 pm

I once designed one of these vga to et4000 adaptors. Stga anyone?

The isa bus timing isn't well specified and the bus timing of the various vga chips varies as well. I remember sitting hours over the 68000 and et4000 data sheets to verify that they'll work together without too much glue logic. They do. But that's not necessarily true for any other vga chip as well.

Next downside: the isa bus is slow. Slower than the standard 68000 bus. A vga card thus is awfully slow.

Regarding drivers: vga only defines the standard registers of ibms original vga card. Any resolution you guys are interested in is super vga or better. There's no standard for the register layout of that. Vga cards came with custom vga bios (aka a driver) on board. Plus they all have their own windows and linux drivers because of that. Even two et4000 cards can differ so much that a driver needs to test for the available video clocks and the like. I had a hard time getting only a few different et4000 cards to work with my driver.

I'd really suggest the fpga route. You could even create planar video modes that way. This would allow tos to use it with minimal drivers. There many examples for fpga video controller implementations. E.g. every single core available for the mist board contains one. Even a built-in blitter can be added. The result would be way cheaper and much more reliable than any setup relying on 25 year old graphics cards.
MIST board, FPGA based Atari STE and more: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby rpineau » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:15 pm

So .. are you volunteering to make the FPGA code for a VGA controller ? :wink:
I agree that the FPGA route is probably better but may be we should start a new thread for this ?
Would some of the MiST developer be interested to help on this ? (because I can do CPLD but I never did anything with FPGA and all the env to develop for FPGA are Windows only ... ), but I'm willing to learn. If, as you said, it's cheaper, I'm sure there would be a lot of people interested as a video card could be made not just for the VME bus but also for the Mega bus, Falcon bus and for STF, directly on a socket on the CPU. The interfaces as almost identical in all these case so the change for each bus would be minimal.

Rodolphe
Falcon + AB040 + Eclipse PCI + ATI Rage VGA card + NE2000 Ethernec + HxC Floppy Emulator
MegaSTE 4MB + CosmosEx / 1040 STF for hardware dev
http://www.rti-zone.org/atari.php

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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby ctirad » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:09 pm

rpineau wrote:So .. are you volunteering to make the FPGA code for a VGA controller ?


I'm already working on it. From the FPGA you can quite easily stream DVI/HDMI directly. If you will mirror the whole 4MB space you can easily ouptut the actual VRAM space with a timming suitable for a modern displays. Next step will be the FVDI(?) driver that would allow to use custom graphics modes. Firstly only as a simple framebufer (most Atari GFX boards are used only as an framebuffer anyway). Final step will be to add some acceleration. Of course related to VDI needs.

From my point of view this is much simpler and celaner solution than bother with an antic BUS interfaces and VGA cards.

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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby alanh » Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:04 pm

Awesome, it's one thing I'm planning to do in the future too, and that's the very distant future too :-), so nothing happening from me anytime soon.

Have you got HDMI, DVI or just VGA connectors at the moment ?
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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby Guest » Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:16 pm

several people asked me to remake it
i dont plan to make many perhaps 5
i do agree its not the best solution
i had to blow the dust off some of the datasheets i downloaded

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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby ctirad » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:58 pm

alanh wrote:Have you got HDMI, DVI or just VGA connectors at the moment ?


I have functional VGA and DVI streaming on the breadboard. I didn't experiment with the audio so far, but it is same for the both DVI/HDMI connectors. For the final device I do not plan VGA at all, because I do not want to bother with any kind of DAC.

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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby rpineau » Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:33 pm

I think not having VGA is fine as it makes the card simpler and lower the over final cost.
What resolution will be supported ? Bit depth ?
Will the whole design be open source (open hardware) ?
Thanks again for doing this.
Rodolphe
Falcon + AB040 + Eclipse PCI + ATI Rage VGA card + NE2000 Ethernec + HxC Floppy Emulator
MegaSTE 4MB + CosmosEx / 1040 STF for hardware dev
http://www.rti-zone.org/atari.php

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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby qq1975b » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:24 pm

:thumbs:

Can anybody open a new topic about this possible FPGA gfx card development and post the link here, please? To avoid messing this VME one that has turned 180 degrees...

EDIT: I am going to do it....

EDIT: Done :thumbs: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=27522


This Nova thread will remain discussing ISA-VME adapter if this is Ok....

Enrique.
Trying to learn...

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Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby ctirad » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:24 pm

rpineau wrote:I think not having VGA is fine as it makes the card simpler and lower the over final cost.
What resolution will be supported ? Bit depth ?


The resolution should be up to at least 720p depending on the FPGA used in the production version.
The DVI(HDMI) streams allways 8+2 bits of color insformation per RGB, thus everything from mono to 24bit TC is possible.

Will the whole design be open source (open hardware) ?


It is too early to tell. My hardware is usually not opensource, but on the other side for a later fVDI work and acceleration I will definitely need a help from a good programmer.

Guest

Re: Nova VME Bus Adapter Building Files ...

Postby Guest » Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:23 pm

perhaps a user added board can be added too the isa design
then you can have a daughter board with fpga chip and interfaces / sockets added too it
DEVELOPMENT setup {rasp pi version 2}
this way you get help and users to interact more
some of the ways the gal treats the addresses are already desirable in fpga and coding too pipe data in and out is also there
so the isa can be a bonus and perhaps a rasp pi can be reused to better use the actual isa port...
perhaps add other ports
then you also have a pipeline for data via usb with some level of control and an inbuilt stack.. to to pi
perhaps reuse the TTRAM port.. as its much faster ...and mint uses it as per the usb stack project {dont know why they do it}
i think ill make 20 of the extender boards available
if people want too play with vme
then the socket should be on the back
or it becomes a mess inside the machine
VME is REALLY slow and if you use VME any ram it has onboard is slower by 1 wait state than even STRAM

so reuse of both ports is a good idea,,,

all i want too know er after 10 days of work {13hrs} do people want them or not
if no will i add this project is finished as the pcb and schematics are in good order
so... make it yourself .. the board will cost about 80 euros to make a 1 off..
ill stop

if yes ill make 5???? ps i dont want or need one i just use VGA and im happy with that

it all very well muttering on about fpga
but where is it
will we be old and gray or older and white???
slagging old tech wont help build a new design
i wanted to expand the TTRam port much more
but it falls on deaf ears
{page 14 magnum TT topic}
all i get is ZERO feedback from most people
ie i asked if people want me too add a port for breaking out the bus and control both vme and display
{just a board placed between the extender card and the isa
then i can wire more signal back if needed

no point in trashing the nova and the VERY cleaver guy who made it out of the top of his head...
as for code help good luck too you...

i will offer to help
i have many skills in c code...

ive seen any many amount of fpga promises
one is yet to transpire !!!


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