Atari TT early revision

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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby wongck » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:03 am

Shredder11 wrote:
bid wrote:
simbo wrote:and i would carefully backup some of the apps and etc on its existing media


Also some CAD stuff might be useful?


There was some good CAD software for the ST but the name escapes me right now. I believe it works best when you have a co-processor installed. Someone is bound to chime in with the name of the main software package.



IIRC, there was one that even does 3D .... but the name escapes me now.
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby wongck » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:06 am

bid wrote:
wongck wrote:A visual check shows that its got a MC68882FN33A to the left of the CPU board, mounted on the main board in a socket. ( Pretty cool that its all socketed on these professional systems? Do we know why? Is is cos they are crap, and Atari knew it would bust and / or was buggy ) or is is so that it can be upgraded easily ). There are many many socked chips by the way, including all my ST onboard RAM, its controllers, and many many other chips, like the SCSI, Floppy, in fact its hard to find any that arent on this board. So bet the Falcon can't do that. (Or did they just build this machine so we could have fun tinkering with it?) :?


Yes, the cattamarran seems an easy upgrade. but there no clone.

If you did not OC it, then some chips may be walking wounded.
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby bid » Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:03 pm

Ok. So back to the Atari 32 Meg Daughterboard PGA thingy. Its waaaay waaaay too hot and not only U3 and U4 (I still dont know what these are?? And the 68030 is pretty hot too. The TT works fine, and actually is very fast and I am not getting any crashing whatsoever or or freezing.

But, for want of a better answer I am going to have to put these on, as I want to use the TT, and I have no idea if there is a problem with the chips or not. So these self adhesive heatsinks should help me to extend the life of the TT and take some of the strain off I hope. Should be plenty here for all the hot 'uns and I recommend these
Image

There are more on ebay here for £1.99 plus free postage http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Aluminum-RAM-VGA-DDR-DDR2-RAM-Memory-Cooler-HeatSink-/350384428805?pt=Computing_ComputerComponents_Fans_Heatsinks_SR&hash=item51948a1705#ht_2670wt_854 I have also ordered a resistor assembly for the internal in facing fan http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/3PIN-Resistor-Cable-CPU-Fan-Speed-Reduce-1Pcs-Noiseless-/180645699674?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a0f52a05a at £1.24 so that I can bear to put the "sucking in" fan back in the right hand side behind the hard drive area. This will half speed, and I am happy with that as I am not drawing the same current through the TT as I am using Compact Flash now. I think that will be enough, and again keep my machine quiet and yet reliable.
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby simbo » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:06 am

sounds like a good idea adding a heatsink and prob a 12v psu fan but run from 5v
this way its very quiet

i recommend people protect the smd type 030 as its hard too find now
in atari spec custom pinout the falcon 16mhz one is the same pinout and will work instead
but overclocked to 32mhz {it will work i tried it once}
the pga ones are easier to find
but protecting these ics with thermal measure is a good hardware tweak

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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby 1024MAK » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:15 am

bid wrote:One more hardware item for now. Obviously I am keen to protect the machine and make sure it does not blow up on me, especially as using it after 20 or so years, could put a strain on the 'old girl'.

I noticed that this the PSU gets VERY VERY hot indeed, if not cooled by a fan. So I have replaced the ageing fans with new, and also added a CPU speed controller to make them quieter and checked air flow carefully. Obviously, this is a vintage machine, so I am also wondering how to protect the computer as it ages, exsecially the parts that go "bang", especially as you cant just pop down to PC World and ask for parts :lol:

The STe runs pretty cool, and apart from the PSU, is very reliable. However, the TT is quite a lot different, and examining the board, I have a number of very hot chips.

///snip///
The 68030 is "warm", but the DIL's in the slots marked U3 and U4 are running "burning hot". What are these used for, and also where is my 68881/2 co-processor?? :oops: Help me!!

I am thinking of adding some of these adhesive DIL Heatsinks http://www.maplin.co.uk/dil-ic-heatsinks-30377 around the place, and wondering if this is a good preventative measure. Im talking where chips are quite hot indeed, is this a good idea?? Also, I am also wondering what other preventative measures we can take, if any, to preserve the board and PSU. Also if a PSU burn out can it hurt the board itself?

As I say, I am not an electronics engineer, but I would certainly consider replacing components or making modifications to preserve the life of the machine if it was advisable? For example, should I consider replacing the capacitors now, as they must be 120 years old, or should I wait for them to blow?! :lol:


Four main things kill silicon transistors and chips:
1, reverse polarity
2, over-voltage
3, physical damage (including corrosion)
4, thermal damage

Taking them in turn (I will use "chip" in the text, but this applies to other silicon devices like transistors as well):-
1, reverse polarity - this is not a factor unless you add a non Atari PSU and mess up the wiring - use a multimeter, don't rely on the colours of the wires (as someone I know did with a different machine - only to have it "blow-up"!).

2, over-voltage - most of the time a PSU will fail with an under-voltage failure mode, which stops the computer from working, but does not damage it. However, sometimes the regulation circuit in the PSU fails and the output voltages rise way above safe values. Needless to say, this is not good. Most chips do not work correctly with too high a supply voltage and all will be damaged if the voltage rises too high. It is possible to build an inexpensive protection circuit. Let me know if you want details.

3, physical damage (including corrosion) - With regards to the corrosion issue, if at any time any liquid gets inside an electronic device immediately switch it off and unplug it and remove all batteries. Then if possible remove the circuit boards. Wash then under clean tap water. Make sure all the contamination / liquid is removed (but be careful not to damage any components). Then allow to air dry at an angle in a warm place for at least 24 hours. Carefully check, and if any sign of water remains leave for another 24 hours. Why do all this, well most corrosion issues result from contaminated liquids which eat the copper PCB tracks and component legs. Note that leaking batteries and leaking electrolytic capacitors also cause problems.

4, thermal damage - this comes as two types of problem. Overheating, and thermal stress (caused by temperature cycling). Silicon transistors and chips all have a maximum temperature rating. Operation above this level can lead to damage caused by thermal runaway. With digital chips the faster the logic gates in the chip switch, the great the amount of heat generated. The problem is getting the heat away from the silicon core or die (or "chip"!). To aid the dissipation of the heat, either a heatsink or a fan can be used (or both). Both draw the heat out of and away from the casing of the chip thereby reducing the rate of temperature rise within the chip casing. Important things to note are: if using a heatsink, ensure it is big enough to dissipate enough heat, and that the thermal resistance between the heatsink and the case of the chip is low. So use heatsink compound (which is a white paste that fills in all the little holes so maximising contact and keeping the thermal resistance as low as possible). When using a fan to cool chips, it is the path of the airflow that is important (more so than the temperature of the air, although cool air is much better than hot air!). So if the designer used fans in the design, operate the equipment with those fans running and with everything fitted correctly in its case. The designer should have arranged the cooling system (of which the case is a part) to draw air over all the components that need cooling.

How hot are your "hot" chips? The MPU 68030 and the two DIL chips U3 and U4 are all running at 32MHz so are always going to run warm. Are they too hot to hold your finger on for more than 20 seconds? If you can hold your finger on them for 30 seconds then I would suggest that if the cooling fans are effective, no additional heatsink is needed. But note that this is general advice as I do not have a TT myself. As long as the heatsinks actually help remove heat and don't get in the way of the case metalwork, then I can not see any problems with this.

Electrolytic Capacitors
These are the cylindrical types in metal cans with either metal or plastic tops.
Strangely enough, they suffer from the same kind of problems, plus natural aging. The main things that kill them are:
1, reverse polarity
2, over-voltage
3, physical damage
4, thermal damage
For 1 and 2 depending on the magnitude of the applied voltage, either they do not work correctly, age quickly or go bang! shooting out of their case and attempting to make orbit leaving a nasty mess in their wake... So ensure any replacements are fitted with the correct polarity, and that they have the same or greater voltage rating than the component they are replacing.
3, If you can see any damage or if there is any deformation, replace.
4, Most capacitors have a temperature rating of 85 degress C. The higher the temperature, the quicker electrolytic capacitors age. The heat is both from the air, nearby hot components and from within the capacitor itself. For the PSU, I recommend that you fit good quality ones, buy replacements that have the same capacitance (in uF), have a voltage rating equal or greater, are 105 degree C rated and are low ESR types (which are designed for use in switch mode PSU's, which is what these Atari PSU's are). And of course they have to actually fit on the PCB!

As Atari hardware is over 20 years old, I recommend renewing all the electrolytic capacitors in the PSU at the very least. You may want to renew the ones on the main board, but failure of these normally just degrades the performance of the relevant section of circuitry rather than being a show stopper. Where ever a capacitor is near a hot or warm component fit a 105 degress C type.

Most other components have a long life and so leave them well alone. The only other issue is the solder. This ages over time. So check the solder joints on the PSU (important). If you have time, do the same on large components on the main board (less important).

Hope this helps :mrgreen:
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby wongck » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:35 pm

1024MAK wrote:1, reverse polarity - this is not a factor unless you add a non Atari PSU and mess up the wiring - use a multimeter, don't rely on the colours of the wires (as someone I know did with a different machine - only to have it "blow-up"!).


How true... 8O
It is amazing when the standards are formed.
I had a small thin client PSU from 2002 to power my CT63.
Amazingly, back in 2002, the colour of the wire are not as per the Wiki PSU page !!!
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby Shredder11 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:02 pm

[quothttp://www.asterius.com/atari/gfx/diagram.cybervcr.jpge="wongck"]
Shredder11 wrote:
bid wrote:
simbo wrote:and i would carefully backup some of the apps and etc on its existing media


Also some CAD stuff might be useful?


There was some good CAD software for the ST but the name escapes me right now. I believe it works best when you have a co-processor installed. Someone is bound to chime in with the name of the main software package.



IIRC, there was one that even does 3D .... but the name escapes me now.[/quote]


One that comes to mind is Cyber Studio + the suite of associated programs and CAD-3D 2.0; check out the links and videos here:

http://www.asterius.com/atari/index.html

http://www.asterius.com/atari/cad3d.html

http://www.asterius.com/atari/cyberclips/cybermation.mov

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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby bid » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:03 am

1024MAK wrote:... Hope this helps :mrgreen:


Whoaaa!! :D Thanks. That sure does help lol :lol:

This is excellent excellent info. And I could not have asked for more. Really going to implement some of this, and especially with regards to protecting the existing units I have and also helping me to have confidence to do the right thing. You know, I would be interested in fitting some kind of over-voltage protection, if its not too hard. Not sure if the PSU has this? I was also interested to know if it was possible to retrofit "switch mode power supply" or something that is cooler, and more modern and efficient. Possibly smaller too. Then I can put some extra stuff in the TT at a later date (not telling what!!) :D

Regarding thermal and caps. This seems to be the most important to address. And I must make this a priority. I have already ordered some components, but are there for example a list of Caps in each machine? I have a dead STe that is due to a fault on the PSU, and I have no doubt that leaky caps are the no 1 death cause for atari. However, as you can see, I am no electronics expert, and I would prefer to order from a list, and then solder carefully. This I can do!! :lol: Also I will certainly document my mods for others to follow in the future if need be. Thanks again!! Amazing info right there! Cheers, Bid
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby bid » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:26 am

simbo wrote:sounds like a good idea adding a heatsink and prob a 12v psu fan but run from 5v
this way its very quiet


Yeah. Sure glad I noticed the over hot chips tho!! :x I still have not identified what U3 and U4 are on the early TT daughterboard. Also, I have just discovered that if I try to refit the original huuuuge amount of metal shielding, then there is only 3-4mm above this board. So I have also ordered a 5mm thermal transfer pad. This would transfer heat onto shielding if I refit this, once I am finished having fun, and take the heat away (hopefully).

i recommend people protect the smd type 030 as its hard too find now in atari spec custom pinout the falcon 16mhz one is the same pinout and will work instead but overclocked to 32mhz {it will work i tried it once}
the pga ones are easier to find but protecting these ics with thermal measure is a good hardware tweak


Mine is MC68030RC33B. I did not realise that this might be an Atari custom spec??!! I'd like to know more about this chip. Plus how does the Catamaran over clock these? I hear co-processor is overclockable also, but is this at all useful? Also, how does the CPU when clocked, know how many cycles it is doing and keep time? It fascinates me that if I run Frontier Elite 2 on the TT, the frame rate is so much better than the ST (yes its playable!!), but David Braben must not have even written this for the TT. So, how is this managed internally, and is this a poor upgrade for compatibility, or is the software independent of clock speed?

My CPU is SMD, so its definately getting some heatsink action asap! Is it just the early TT's that overheat? I forgot to mention to 1024MAK's post that the chips are too hot to hold for 30 seconds, and quite uncomfortable... Ha ha. Also I have been Hyperterminaling some 12MB zips over on 115200bps serial and then unzipping on the TT. The CPU definitely heats up during this process, so is getting a good workout, which is what it was made for. The speed of this machine, to say it is supposed to me 32Mhz is quite astonishing, especially to say that I have an i5 quad core PC, with four, yes four 4GHZ hyperthreaded CPU's with no bottleneck (10,00 rpm drive, 4GB, Quadro) as I need a lot of power for my work in simulation... and the TT is respectable in packing and unpacking with its piddly 2MB, so must be a pretty efficient CPU? Is it slower when it gets hot??
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby wongck » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:47 am

bid wrote:Mine is MC68030RC33B. I did not realise that this might be an Atari custom spec??!! I'd like to know more about this chip. Plus how does the Catamaran over clock these?


There was some interest in producing some caTTamaran by Djbase. But that was like back in 2009.
But this one has not gone so far as producing the prototype cards like STlabs stuff.
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby bid » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:48 am

Shredder11 wrote: There was some good CAD software for the ST but the name escapes me right now. I believe it works best when you have a co-processor installed. Someone is bound to chime in with the name of the main software package.

IIRC, there was one that even does 3D .... but the name escapes me now.

One that comes to mind is Cyber Studio + the suite of associated programs and CAD-3D 2.0; check out the links and videos here:


Shredder, shredder, shredder. Now look what you have done!! :lol:

Jeeze. I was trying to put this machine away for a bit, and get on with some work and family. You know I write up my experience with Atari, and reasons for going back, plus my work in quite some detail. Then my damn annoying and evil Windows7 machine (which by the way, I have tried every tweak and fix under the sun to keep it from evil) decided that as I had written for over an hour into a form field on Choogle Chrome, it would now be a good time to "install updates", that I dont even want ( they are supposed to be turned off ) , and restart my computer, consequently losing all my work and writing, and of course no way to recover. But your post, really got me interested! lol :lol:

I was really planning on just doing a bit of music and finding an excuse to use the machine. You know that 3D CAD is my work now, and I have had a lot of success in this area. But that picture is soooo cool. lol. And the Antic article is a beauty that I have never seen before, and could never have imagined existed. Ha. I kept reading waiting for images to come up from the 3D software I used.. and they did. Of course what really did it for me, was ray-tracing. So much fun right there, and amazing. I still have no idea how PhotoChome worked to view 19,200 colours on a STANDARD ST, and I also used Spectrum 512. But PhotoChrome was better. Does anyone have this? Is there anyone who has not seen this? Simply amazing. How the hell did they do it???? 8) I know about ray tracing, and I know it takes hours ( I used to leave my ST on for several days to output files, lol) but how the hell do you view 19,200 colours on an ST with no additional hardware mods? Please someone tell me??

Anyway, the 3D stuff is great. And of course I am gonna now have to try some 3D in the TT030, plus rendering. Yay 256 colours ( :oops: ). But but but, I also have a plotter (picture for indication, but not mine as no photos yet!!)
Image

And it looks like I can use this with some of the Antic tools, as shown by the blueprints!! Still, I'd like to know what the co-processor can do, and take a look at software I perhaps might not have used. Hell I might even sell my PC (joking). But these things were so much fun and cutting edge at the time, and the value is in the fun and pushing the boundries! :D
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby wongck » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:05 am

bid wrote:Hell I might even sell my PC (joking). But these things were so much fun and cutting edge at the time, and the value is in the fun and pushing the boundries!


You can sell your PC once they ported Google Chrome over to the Atari :angel:
May just happen in April 2011 or April 2012.
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby bid » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:15 am

wongck wrote:You can sell your PC once they ported Google Chrome over to the Atari :angel:
May just happen in April 2011 or April 2012.


Nope. You are wrong my friend.... the WORLD ENDS in 2012, unless you have not been reading the mayan calander, and the words of the prophets.

So, in actual fact, all the PC's and modern OS will be taken down by the overlords, and only Atari os and possibly GEOS will be left behind. Therefore we shall be a new world order, and based on Atari (at least these machines cant be read by a spy van or by its electronic emf signature )
Image

This is the seal of the US Information Awarenes Office http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Awareness_Office

My my they love pyramids dont they !! lol

So we are safe, for now.... As long as we use our Atari's :mrgreen: ... Oh, and watch out for anything that is like a pyramid, and a saviour of the world. That is probably the AntiChrist. Anyway, Google Chrome rocks. Can we port it? lol :lol:
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby Ato » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:55 am

bid wrote:Mine is MC68030RC33B. I did not realise that this might be an Atari custom spec??!!


Me neither. I thought they just used the in grid array (PGA) and the ceramic/plastic quad flat pack (C/P QFP) packaging and that's it? Motorola had at the time, due to too high demand and then later too high demand for too old technology :D the production outsourced or licensed. I thought until recently that the weird model numbers came from the licensees and not from Motorola. Citizen for example was one of the manufacturers of MC68030 MPUs.

bid wrote:I'd like to know more about this chip.

No problem here. Yours is a PGA = Pin Grid Array = pin through non-SMT MPU. Kind of the grand father of MPU mounting right after DIL. :lol: Motorola then caught up with reality and made the 68030 available in SMT through the then (and still today) modern CQFPs. And to cut down on cost they brought out the 68030 in PQFPs although I do not remember anybody ever call the plastics PQFP but only QFPs due to the "plastic" having a bad connotation. Beats me why.

Usually the B or any letter right after the frequency rating is the temperature stability rating for a lot of ICs. In the case of the 68030 I could not find jack. User's Manual nothing, Programmer's Manual nothing, Engineering Change Notes nothing. Motorola really must have thought they created the holy grail with the 68030. :( Anyway, it seems to me that the Bs are much more common among the 68030s, so I hazard a guess that those are the normal temperature range MPUs and not the MIL standard ones. Another guess: there are only two temperature ranges available: STD and MIL.

bid wrote:Plus how does the Catamaran over clock these? I hear co-processor is overclockable also, but is this at all useful?

Well, of course so. The early Motorola MCUs had an asynchronous floating point unit "bus" which allowed the MPU to fire off FPU commands and pick up the result later while executing its own stuff. The FPU could signal exceptions and the lot so that the MPU would be notified in time that something went wrong during calculations. Therefore the FPU could be clocked at any arbitrary frequency without affecting the MPUs ability to execute its own stream of instructions. In my humble opinion: welcome to the world of smart hardware designers. Unfortunately Motorola got rid of that and implemented a half-a** FPU instead - pleading that it would perform equally - when they released the MC68040. But this is a different sad story.

bid wrote:Also, how does the CPU when clocked, know how many cycles it is doing and keep time? It fascinates me that if I run Frontier Elite 2 on the TT, the frame rate is so much better than the ST (yes its playable!!), but David Braben must not have even written this for the TT. So, how is this managed internally, and is this a poor upgrade for compatibility, or is the software independent of clock speed?


This one is really easy. :) You just never use the CPU as timer but an external time source. Something like a VBL or a timer chip comes handy. Well, this is true only if you care about your software and keep thinking ahead. A good example is that even today in the age of muliple MPUs in a computer people write awful software that barely runs on a single MPU and is certainly not well behaving on multi-MPU systems because they cannot comprehend it. Really sad if you ask me but that is a completely different story.

bid wrote:My CPU is SMD, so its definately getting some heatsink action asap!

Wait, I thought you said earlier that you had an RC which is a PGA?

Cheers,
T.
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby wongck » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:57 am

Ato wrote: the WORLD ENDS in 2012, unless you have not been reading the mayan calander, and the words of the prophets.


According to someone in this board, the Mayans just ran out of stones. :mrgreen:

Frankly, I believe that there will be a polar reversal.
One school thinks that it will cause huge disaster of unknown proportions.
The other school thinks nothing will happen because we had these polar reversed before and no effect on life.
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby bid » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:00 pm

Ok. Back to the plot.

Can anyone help me?? lol :lol: I want to now fit 2x CF Cards to the Acard Adapter, thus allowing me to transfer files via win32 format on one card. No I do not want to run Dos and Win32 on same card, as I cant afford to lose data on 4GB. Its filling up now!!! :lol:

So, can I have IDE Master/Slave running from ACard, on a ... TT > 50way SCSI > Acard > IDE cable > Master & Slave CF Card ... type arrangement??? I am guessing not, and that IDE counts as 1x SCSI position on the Acard.

But would be great if i could drive multiple IDE... well 2 IDE off the Acard? Can anyone help?? :megaphone: :D
Atari 520STe (4MB) from new (",), Atari Mega ST4 (given by customer), Atari Mega STe broken motherboard (with chips missing) and Atari TT030 (2MB now partly working, + some bits I am going to add soon)
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby simbo » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:24 pm

bid wrote:Ok. Back to the plot.

Can anyone help me?? lol :lol: I want to now fit 2x CF Cards to the Acard Adapter, thus allowing me to transfer files via win32 format on one card. No I do not want to run Dos and Win32 on same card, as I cant afford to lose data on 4GB. Its filling up now!!! :lol:

So, can I have IDE Master/Slave running from ACard, on a ... TT > 50way SCSI > Acard > IDE cable > Master & Slave CF Card ... type arrangement??? I am guessing not, and that IDE counts as 1x SCSI position on the Acard.

But would be great if i could drive multiple IDE... well 2 IDE off the Acard? Can anyone help?? :megaphone: :D



no
you can only have a master connected as a scsi id via the acard
you need another acard and set it as ID1 etc

then you can have two drives
once mint or magiC boots you can access fat 32 formats

why not just partition the cf your using as fat and tos compatable ???
then you can uplug it to the pc without issues

with a 2GB card make a 1GB tos and a 1GB fat
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby wongck » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:40 pm

Correct, you can only run one IDE device on one SCSI-IDE AEC-7720 or IOData IDSC21.
However, there are some newer SCSi-IDE converters from Acard that seems to allow 2 IDE devices.

I have seen them on their website but I have not tried them - ARS 2120.
http://dl.acard.com/manual/english/2120(E)Q.pdf
You may want to have a shot at them ?
May be you find some other models that can do it.
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby wongck » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:48 pm

bid wrote: No I do not want to run Dos and Win32 on same card, as I cant afford to lose data on 4GB. Its filling up now!!!


You should be able to partition one DOS and the rest with a Win32 file system like FAT32 or NTFS without issues.
If the Disk Manager don't allow you, you can use command prompt diskpart utilty.

But be sure that if you do this, you may need BIGDOS on Atari to read DOS format.
I personally have not tried this but in theory sounds possible.
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby bid » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:10 am

Ok ok! Great answers. Thank you thank you etc etc.

No I have a couple more questions. Like a child who never gives up lol.

1. Are there any disadvantages over using the Acard SCSI to IDE conversion to run various drives.
- For example, how does data speed compare to native IDE and native SCSI ? (I'd run some tests leter, but my TT and Mega is in bits right now lol) :lol:
- Also, can I hook up a CD Rom to the Acard ?? Or is it funny with this. (I'd need to buy a second one to try it I think) but can anyone tell me?
- Is the Acard a good permanent solution? Am I likeley to run into trouble if I rely on this on my full system(s)?

2. I have had to use UCD Pro Tools. I bought the new version of HDRIVER, but in my TT it does not seem to like the Acard I have unfortunately. Cant be arsed to flash it right now for firmware, so looks like I am stuck with this for a while till I have time.

a. However, I foolishly in my haste did not add a full series of partitions, as I was going to add them later. I now have a 16MB boot partition (so I can use on any TOS bootup including TOS1), and then a 512MB partition for TOS2.06 access, and all my software and data. But I am now scared to add a 3rd partition on the card using ICD Pro as I really dont want to risk the data. I have no means of backup right now, as only 1x40MB physical hard drive, and serial link as options. I have no zip or ultra-satan. If I add a 3rd ASCI partition in ICD Pro Tools using this guide http://joo.kie.sk/ultrasatan/icdpro/, I am unsure if the partition table manager will add my 3rd drive (a 256MB for my Mega ST in TOS1.4 for example) and it certainly does not seem to have a documented FAT16 or FAT32 option. You just type GEM in the box, but reading the manuals I can only find GEM or BGM as options
- Is it safe to add an extra partition and not lose data?
- Is it possible to use ICD Pro Tools to add a FAT16 or FAT32 to anybodys knowledge?

b. I am thinking of disabling the ICD drivers, and booting in with my HRDRIVER driver disk, and seeing if these tools are better (I am sure they are) but will see my ICD partitions and allow me more room to tweak and make the setup I want. Will this be a problem?
Atari 520STe (4MB) from new (",), Atari Mega ST4 (given by customer), Atari Mega STe broken motherboard (with chips missing) and Atari TT030 (2MB now partly working, + some bits I am going to add soon)
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby wongck » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:53 am

bid wrote: For example, how does data speed compare to native IDE and native SCSI ? (I'd run some tests leter, but my TT and Mega is in bits right now lol)
- Also, can I hook up a CD Rom to the Acard ?? Or is it funny with this. (I'd need to buy a second one to try it I think) but can anyone tell me?
- Is the Acard a good permanent solution? Am I likeley to run into trouble if I rely on this on my full system(s)?


Follow the link for some speed comparison between a SCSI-IDE devices & SCSI device on a TT done 2 years ago.

Look at the photo of devices on the TT at the bottom of the web page.
The Quantum LPS540 is the internal scsi drive.
The Quantum Fireball is a IDE HDD.
The BenQ DVD is a IDE DVD drive (a CD drive is similarly OK).
The Acard should be similar to other SCSI-IDE adapter, if not better, as Acard is still around while the IO-DATA is gone 8)

Been running these SCSI-IDE for over 2 years now but it really depends on your luck if your get a dud.
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby wongck » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:07 pm

bid wrote:a. However, I foolishly in my haste did not add a full series of partitions, as I was going to add them later. I now have a 16MB boot partition (so I can use on any TOS bootup including TOS1), and then a 512MB partition for TOS2.06 access, and all my software and data. But I am now scared to add a 3rd partition on the card using ICD Pro as I really dont want to risk the data. I have no means of backup right now, as only 1x40MB physical hard drive, and serial link as options. I have no zip or ultra-satan. If I add a 3rd ASCI partition in ICD Pro Tools using this guide http://joo.kie.sk/ultrasatan/icdpro/, I am unsure if the partition table manager will add my 3rd drive (a 256MB for my Mega ST in TOS1.4 for example) and it certainly does not seem to have a documented FAT16 or FAT32 option. You just type GEM in the box, but reading the manuals I can only find GEM or BGM as options
- Is it safe to add an extra partition and not lose data?
- Is it possible to use ICD Pro Tools to add a FAT16 or FAT32 to anybodys knowledge?


TOS 2.06 cannot do 512MB, you mean TOS 3.0x :mrgreen:
In any case you want to add a partition, you will need to back up all your stuff because you cannot add another partition without destroying everything.
This is not Window 7 :roll: or even the 2 generation behind Win 2K.

IIRC, you can have 4 partitions on the HDD for GEMDOS. I may be wrong here.
You can add FAT32 to any partition as long as it is of type RAW (as oppose to GEM or BGM). The FAT32 formater will check this.
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby Shredder11 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:33 pm

bid wrote:
can I hook up a CD Rom to the Acard ?? Or is it funny with this. (I'd need to buy a second one to try it I think) but can anyone tell me?



I initially tried using my old 8x IDE Plextor CDRW drive via the Acard and with TOS 2.06, but the best I could get was as a CDROM; it did not function correctly as a writer but that could be that my writer is not supported by the software I was using, or maybe I had HD Driver v8.23 setup wrongly...I dunno. I later gave up and bought a supported Yamaha SCSI writer which works perfectly. I also own an IO DATA model and that works the same as the Acard.
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby wongck » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:26 pm

I only had software to write to CD-RW, and it worked for me :)
That's the Free cdlabs, but it hangs if I am using it in Mint. :roll:
May br it's my mobo revision.
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Re: Atari TT early revision

Postby bid » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:28 pm

Ok. So lets get this right? :?

1. The SCSI is faster than the SCSI-IDE by a small margin? But it works fine and no probs with hard drives and CF Cards?
2. I'll be better to get a SCSI CD-Rom and the Yamaha's look best if I want to do RW ?
3. So I might be best to combine SCSI-IDE-CF on one link, a SCSI-CDRW on the other, and if I want ZIP (internal) a SCSI-ZIP would be best.
4. I can run this off either, (a) My TT030 internal SCSI (room permitting) or (b) My ICD AdSCSI adaptor, in a seperate case.
5. I will have to upgrade to HDRIVER to get best results.
6. I will have to wait until I get some additional storage >= than 500MB if I want to add another partition to my existing 4BG Compact Flash, as adding another partition in either ICD Pro Tools, or HDRIVER will likely loose data on my existing 512MB partition?
7. Using ICD Pro, can I put "RAW" in the partition entry rather than "GEM" or "BGM" ?? But then this is not a valid FAT16 or FAT32 is it? I did try this by putting my CF-IDE into my PC and booting up Acronis Partition Manager, but it did not see the GEM, BGM partitions, and I am guessing it wont see the RAW partition either. I actually was originally kind of hoping to add the DOS partition this way!! :lol: Hoped that it would show the GEM and BGM as "Unidentified" and let me add the DOS partition, then I would be sorted (i.e. copy all my GEM to the FAT32 on my TT, then back up on the PC. Also then use the win32 to transfer files to TT, and then use rest of win32 for Mint or Magic. Sorted), but it did not turn out this way!! :lol:

Can anyone confirm why my method did not work, and have any recommendations, comment on my dilemma?? :)
Atari 520STe (4MB) from new (",), Atari Mega ST4 (given by customer), Atari Mega STe broken motherboard (with chips missing) and Atari TT030 (2MB now partly working, + some bits I am going to add soon)
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