The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby artik-wroc » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:14 am

FatRakoon wrote:
artik-wroc wrote:CTT060 - NO CHANCE :(



Party pooper... Boo..



This is only small provocation :)

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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby FatRakoon » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:50 pm

Ok, so if the CTT60 is not going to happen, we have to ask some important questions...

Its clear that we are solely reliant on 2 people for the CT

Rodolphe for the hardware and Didier for the software.

They dont have to do these, so the price is neither here nor there. They have their people to pay and they take their cut etc and I dont know how much they make on these things, but without them, what else is there?

Now, ok, lets assume that the CTT is a project thats too large, then what else can we settle for?

I know that I for one would just love to have better GFX in my TT, and RAM too, and I think thats somethign that everyone would love to see. Both ST and TT RAM.

Faster CPU perhaps? - Ok, so if there needs to be a re-write of TOS3 then can we stick on the 030 and just clock it ( CaTTamaran = 030 @ 48Mhz )

So, while we dont really need a large project like the CT, what are the chances of a lesser project?

What are the chances of seeing a simple ( Simple? ) board that will let us use SDRAM as TT RAM? - How many people would want that? What about doing similar for STRAM?

I am happy with the speed of my TT. I dont play games , I use my TT mostly for WP/DTP/Texel/CAB/HTML/HBasic and its fine for me. Admittedly I would like it faster of course, but if I got a choice of a CTT060@66Mhz for it or to up the RAM to say 16+32 and have perhaps 256 colours in 800x600 then Id go for the RAM and GFX anyday

Since Faster 030, GFX and both ST and TT RAM etc have already been done, thats half the battle surely?
Its not redeveloping and redesigning completely new hardware, its using stuff thats already there and taking it a step further thats all ( Thats all? )

So maybe something lesser then?
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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby artik-wroc » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:30 pm

At the last time :) Rodolphe email:

"OK I see 58, correct ?
Check them again and try some others....
AND find the guy who is ready to patch the TOS3.06 for 060 .... "

1) Who is really interested ? Mayby I (or someone) can create list: Name, Surname, City, Email (confidential).
2) Guy who is ready to patch the TOS3.06 - any suggestions ?

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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby lp » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:46 am

The Hades in case you don't know it, was based on the TT, uses a modified TT TOS v3.06. The guy (Fredi) who modified TOS 3.06 for the Hades for a brief time posted the changes he made on the site. So someone would have a head start on the TOS fixes, I have this archive. I'm sure others have it too.

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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby artik-wroc » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:52 am

Yes. Hades, Medusa... but:

Rodolphe: "Who will modify the TOS ? Even if it runs on 060, if you take the TOS from the Milan 060 or Medusa t60, you can be sure that it is addressing some hardware addresses that does not exist on TT030... so it will crash...
Who will dump this TOS ???
And who will add the routs to set the SDRAM, install it to the system (it must be seen by the system with the malloc memory functions) ?
Who will add the FPU routs too.... all that must be fit in the flash of the CTTT60...like on CT60 with TOS4 modified ?.
Many questions around 1 developper we need."

He has right.

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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby lp » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:11 am

I'm not even going to try an quote that mess. Uhm, did I say it would run unmodified? Of course not. What I said is I have an archive with source listings that would help such a project. It would give someone a nice overview of all the places that need looked at and changed in TOS 3.06 for 060 support. It also includes the entire FPU patches for the Hades. It's commented source code as well.

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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby doctorclu » Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:10 pm

Interesting to see the interest in this again.

The list of like 60 TT users was listed on Atariage. I would tell you where but I cannot access it from work.
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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby wongck » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:54 pm

FatRakoon wrote: Admittedly I would like it faster of course, but if I got a choice of a CTT060@66Mhz for it or to up the RAM to say 16+32 and have perhaps 256 colours in 800x600 then Id go for the RAM and GFX anyday


For me, I would rather have a faster CPU. I have RAM 4+32 (not 16+32) and 1024x768@256 (Nova card) - but using zView to view a PDF or a JPG takes to long to decode. Was going to bid for a Cattamaran @ ebay, but was out bid by someone....
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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby FatRakoon » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:22 pm

wongck wrote:
For me, I would rather have a faster CPU. I have RAM 4+32 (not 16+32) and 1024x768@256 (Nova card) - but using zView to view a PDF or a JPG takes to long to decode. Was going to bid for a Cattamaran @ ebay, but was out bid by someone....


Lets say the CT does get developed for the TT then you can forget about the Nova card - they are not compatible so, you will be going back to 640x480x16 - resolution and colours back to stock.
That will for me, not be worth it... I would rather have the screen mode myself.
The RAM too... Im on 4+4 on my current TT and its a killer. but then the CTT ( Thats what the TT version was / is going to be )
I sold off my last TT ( it had 10+16 but I sold it as 2+4 ... I sent off the wrong one!!! ) So, dropping the RAM off almost killed my love for Ataris as much as trying to use a stock falcon
Although to be fair, Id rather use a 4+4MB TT than a 16MB Falcon ... And I am doing while my CT is getting repaired.

What is the fastest the 030 went to?

Is there a cheaper alternative to the CT then that perhaps Rodolphe might take on?

Way back when hardware accelerators were available, no one could truthfully afford them and they didnt sell that many, these days, the TT and Falcon have proven themselves and so getting one is more of aviable option... For a sensible price of course.
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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby coze » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:32 pm

if somebody buys this TT30 for me, I'll sign your list :wink:

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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby wongck » Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:44 pm

coze wrote:if somebody buys this TT30 for me, I'll sign your list :wink:


That TT looks like a bargain. Mine cost almost 3 times that much :(
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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby wongck » Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:54 pm

FatRakoon wrote:Although to be fair, Id rather use a 4+4MB TT than a 16MB Falcon ... And I am doing while my CT is getting repaired.


I don't have a CT on my falc so I feel that the Falc is sluggish compared to the TT. The IDE drive seems faster on the Falc, but that's about it.
So I understand why you rather use a TT than a Falc. I am too using my TT more often than the Falc.
However, I still like my Falc more as I had it for over 10 years.

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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby FatRakoon » Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:08 pm

wongck wrote:
I don't have a CT on my falc so I feel that the Falc is sluggish compared to the TT. The IDE drive seems faster on the Falc, but that's about it.
So I understand why you rather use a TT than a Falc. I am too using my TT more often than the Falc.
However, I still like my Falc more as I had it for over 10 years.


The Falc is dire compared to the TT, never mind sluggish.

The IDE on the Falco nis definitely faster than the TT because the TT dont have IDE, but Im sure if oyu compared the SCSI then you would find the SCSI is faster, although I have to also say myself that I have found the Falcons IDE very quick and Im no longer sure about that... Maybe I will bench the IDE vs SCSI and also the TTs SCSI and ACSI

I have an unfair hatred for Falcons.

Unfair because I have had TTs since the dawn of time, and when I finally got hold of a Falcon, Iwas expecting it to be all singing all dancing etc etc and it never delivered... It never even impressed me in the slightest... Sure, 256 colours as opposed to the TT's 16 ( in 640x480 ) but in 256 colour mode, it was displaying absolutely disgustingly slow.

I soon got rid of the Falcon and went back to the TT

Now, let me also add one other thing that was also a big factor and that is, that my First Falcon had only 1MB... Even my STe was 4+8 FFS so 1MB was useless anyway.

Some time later, I heard of the eclipse PCI adapter and I decided to look out for another falco nand give it a shot, this time it had 4MB but again, I failed to have anythign more thana slight smile when I managed a nice screen mode, but it was so slow, that I just couldnt use it... Sure, it was fairly fast I suppose, but compared to the TT it was slow..

This time the Falcon is 14MB and I thought that thrid time lucky and I am going to go for it... I splashed out on a CT63 and I have gone through my hate the thing stage but rather than get rid, I just packed it up and went back to my TT.

A few months ago, I dug it back out and set about workign through it and its little issues etc and about a month ago, it was finally sorted out and it was running hellish quick and rock solid and I finally accepted that I love it... Unfortunaltey its now dead again and I have had to send off a part thats playing up, and I have gone back to the TT and I am now thinking the opposeite way round...

I love the Falcon yes, but not a stock one. they are bloody useless.
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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby Beetle » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:56 pm

Hi

i asked Rodolphe if there are any plans to make a TT030 CPU upgrade. His reply:
To answer about TT : no plans...

I checked the TT users several years ago, and I get only 30 answers ! Not enough..
Actually there are 400 CT users in the world ! Really better.

I doubt he will change his mind for 50 or 60 interested ppl. Well, hope dies last :)


What is the fastest the 030 went to?
Is there a cheaper alternative to the CT then that perhaps Rodolphe might take on?


What about a faster 68030? Perhaps its possible to put 68030 as software into some kind of i.e. Xilinx FPGA and replace the stock 030 with a socket and daughterboard. I wonder how nice a 100 MHz 030 would feel.

That way, not patching of software/TOS needed. Just a thought, i have no idea what work it needs to do this.



I like my TT030 (10/32 MB, Matrix VME graphics card) more than the F030, too. The Falcon is very slow in stock config. It got 14 MB in the meantime, and an FPU, but i guess it will start to make fun after my ordered ct63 arrives.

Only plus of the Falcon is, it runs more Demos and games :-) When it comes to applications,
my TT030 is far better suited.

If SuperVidel becomes real (and it seems to) that might change. Will my TT030 become obsolete and sold? Probably, if the Falcon gets the better machine... Probably not, if a decent CPU upgrade comes up.

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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby Desty » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:02 pm

Beetle wrote:What about a faster 68030? Perhaps its possible to put 68030 as software into some kind of i.e. Xilinx FPGA and replace the stock 030 with a socket and daughterboard. I wonder how nice a 100 MHz 030 would feel.

That way, not patching of software/TOS needed. Just a thought, i have no idea what work it needs to do this.

I'm not sure here, but I think it wouldn't help much without speeding up/redesigning the bus (a lot). Even with a superfast CPU, there are many other (maybe bigger) bottlenecks.
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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby unseenmenace » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:00 pm

At this point I would be more interested than a RAM upgrade for the TT than anything. If its possible then as suggested above a TT-RAM board that took SDRAM would be great!
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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby FatRakoon » Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:39 pm

Me too!

If my TT had say...10MB STRAM and 16MB TTRAM and a Graphics card, then I would be over the moon.

My TT has a great knack of being able to run 100% of what I need it to, while my Falcon ( Even without tjhe CT6x ) is bloody awful and fails to run a number of my favourite apps.

So I for one would love to upgrade my TT more than I care about the Falcon... Im only doing the falcon in the hope that one day it will be as good as my TT, but I gave up on that thought years ago.
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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby lp » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:53 am

FatRakoon wrote:Me too!

If my TT had say...10MB STRAM and 16MB TTRAM and a Graphics card, then I would be over the moon.

My TT has a great knack of being able to run 100% of what I need it to, while my Falcon ( Even without tjhe CT6x ) is bloody awful and fails to run a number of my favourite apps.

So I for one would love to upgrade my TT more than I care about the Falcon... Im only doing the falcon in the hope that one day it will be as good as my TT, but I gave up on that thought years ago.


You'll cringe knowing my TT is collecting dust, along with the CrazyDots 2 video card and 74mb (10mbST/64mbTT) of ram. It has seen extremely sparse use since I got the Hades060. :cheers:

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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby FatRakoon » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:10 am

lp wrote:You'll cringe knowing my TT is collecting dust, along with the CrazyDots 2 video card and 74mb (10mbST/64mbTT) of ram. It has seen extremely sparse use since I got the Hades060. :cheers:


And I plan on hunting you down like the vermin you are!!!!

----

Admitedly, when My falcon ran right... For that almost, but not quite 2 weeks a few weeks ago, my TT got stuffed away too!

I would love it, if I was able to use my Falcon like I should be able to, but I just cannot.

Why is the TT "Stuffed Away" then?

Why not consider donating it in my direction?

If you were to consider selling it on, how much are we going to be talking?

Dotn get me wrong here... I already have the CT, thats bought and paid for. Rodolphe is having a look at it as we speak ( Well, he's got it anyway ) and I am hoping he fixes the fault in it, and if he does, then that would mean that all my problems will be gone and that I would have no need fora TT as my Falcon will be back up to 16/256MB and with the CT PCI also in the bag, I will also be looking at decent ScreenModes too, but still.... A TT with some decent RAM at long last, and with a GFX Card too?... Maybe for a sensible price????
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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby lp » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:30 am

FatRakoon wrote:And I plan on hunting you down like the vermin you are!!!!

----

Admitedly, when My falcon ran right... For that almost, but not quite 2 weeks a few weeks ago, my TT got stuffed away too!

I would love it, if I was able to use my Falcon like I should be able to, but I just cannot.

Why is the TT "Stuffed Away" then?

Why not consider donating it in my direction?

If you were to consider selling it on, how much are we going to be talking?

Dotn get me wrong here... I already have the CT, thats bought and paid for. Rodolphe is having a look at it as we speak ( Well, he's got it anyway ) and I am hoping he fixes the fault in it, and if he does, then that would mean that all my problems will be gone and that I would have no need fora TT as my Falcon will be back up to 16/256MB and with the CT PCI also in the bag, I will also be looking at decent ScreenModes too, but still.... A TT with some decent RAM at long last, and with a GFX Card too?... Maybe for a sensible price????


I think most will agree you got a dud Falcon from day one. Most unfortunate, but it happens. My Falcon had to be repaired twice within the 1st week I bought it new. Left audio channel was messed up and the NVRAM chip was DOA. Not exactly a good way to make a 1st impression. :) To their credit the dealer made it right, but inside their handy work was less than impressive. 8O

Well, it's not really stuffed away. It sits on a desk next to the Hades. The original 80mb HD has gone south (won't spin up most of the time), the PTC1426 looks terrible now that everything else in my place has LCD. I sold off all my spare TT's and the Falcon, it's my last remaining real Atari so I can't part with it. It's also good for testing or a potential backup plan. It also has an EtherNEC + wireless adapter and it was on my network via MiNT until the HD issue came up.

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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby FatRakoon » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:02 am

lp wrote:I think most will agree you got a dud Falcon from day one. Most unfortunate, but it happens.


Yes, This is my third Falcon.

First was 1MB and yes, they actually did exist, teh second was a 4MB Job that I actually bought an Eclipse for and went at it to get it running but the moment I realised that it didnt work under Magic, was the day it went onto ebay.

Thats the same thing that happened to my AlberTT card funnily enough!

Whats really stupid about that, is that the CTPCI and ATI Radeon 7x00 Will run under Magic, just fine and guess what? - Im moving to MiNT!!!

Well, partially... I want to, and Im loving it all, but in all honesty I have just been using Magic for too long that the move to MiNT is a hard one.

Anyway, I have doen pretty much everythign I can to the Falcon, I have taken it back to stock and done a fair number of various patches now, with the help of a few people here, mosly I think PEP gave me a right load of support and slagging off that I pretty much needed, plus Rodolphe himself of course and for that one week or so, the Falcon run absolutely spot on.

Ok, it did have a few niggles, but I was able to load up over 50MB of junk into it and it still ran a treat with no problems, so I really do feel that I am now on the final lap of getting the Falcon runnig right with the CT63

This is also the final time that I will bother with it. As many know, I have always hated Falcons in place of TTs, so, if the Falcon does not run right when I get the CT63, its going, and I wont even bother trying.

If that comes to it, do you fancy a trade? your TT for my Falcon060 ?
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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby lp » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:33 am

Back when I sold the Falcon, 060 boards didn't exist. Such is hindsight. lol But it led me to buy the Hades.

As tempting as that offer is, I'll have to pass. Even with a solid 060 the video is less than stellar. I'm used the Hades without the video bottleneck. My default video mode it 1280x1024 in 256 colors and it's not sluggish at all. I'd have to dump more cash into the Falcon for a supervidel or pci adapter just to recapture the joy. :wink:

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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby FatRakoon » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:16 am

WHAT?

Bottlenecks on teh CTPCI with Radeon?

Come on, surely you are not that blind?

Didiers results have shown that the Falcon & CTPCI are pretty much double the performance of the Hades060 and thats in 65535 Colours never mind 256 and in many tests its much further.

The CTPCI With Radeon is by far the fastest option for any graphics on any clone, and coupled with the CT6x, which is the fastest option for any Atari or clone, the Falcon060 with a CTPCI will be the absolute fastest Atari compatible available bar the ColdFire and the hades certainly is no match at all.

But you are right... Its just cash after cash after cash.

But as I said before, the CTPCI is already sorted, I have the Radeon here waiting for it and the CT6x is hopefulyl gettign repaired as we speak so I have no need to pump a penny into it anymore, and so if this dont play ball, then I will just concentrate on my TT instead.
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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby lp » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:48 am

You misinterpreted what I said big time. I was referring to your CT60 in it's current state (the trade offer)...without a gfx card! Sorry no thanks. Hence why I said I'd have to buy a gfx card to recapture the joy. :lol:

As for benchmarks since you brought it up. At one level it looks good, at another it looks skewed. Give me the same Radeon card and the same driver, let me pop that into my Hades. I think the comparison won't be "as bad". Those are comparisons against old cards with old drivers that don't take full advantage of any extra features they offer. I think in most respects the current crop of drivers for the Hades do just enough to provide basic functionality. Just the Radeon itself probably induces some speed up, it's how many generations newer than a Mach64?

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Re: The 50 TT030 Users for the CT60..., Atari TT030 Users Unite!

Postby jvernet » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:43 pm

I've just discussed on fr.comp.sys.atari with Rodolph about "CTTT" card. Same response: no way. But a TT RAM with SDRAM card can be made, from the CT060 design.

Is there anybody interested for such card ? I'm, because my TT have only a 4 soldered MB TT RAM card.

Another thing may be a new "Cattamaran" accelerator.
Atari stuff:
520ST, 520 STF, 520STe, 1040ST, 1040STe, MegaST1, MegaST2, MegaST4, MegaSTe 4Mb+DD 250Mb
Falcon: 14Mb Falcon, SpeedRes 030/40 Card-TT/030: 4MbST+20MbFastRAMTT, DD 1Gb, Hydra NetWork Card
Falcon AB40: AfterBurner 040, Nemesis, dead Blowup Hard II, 32Mb.
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800XL, 130xe,65xe


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