Falcon Problem (Solved)

Hardware, coding, music, graphic and various applications

Moderators: Mug UK, [ProToS], lp, moondog/.tSCc., Moderator Team

User avatar
dml
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 3472
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Falcon Problem

Postby dml » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:15 pm

paul92706 wrote:also on ACIA U52 pins 3,4 look like they had some sort of wires attached, because there is solder blob on those pins, i asume they are 500khz signals, so who ever owned this board previous, had some mod on there. Maybe something is fishy around these areas.


Yes pay close attention to this area - I wrote something about it above. Those pins tend to be lifted and blobbed together with solder. Make sure they are properly mapped back to the board according to the schematic and the traces check out, 500khz signal can be measured etc.

Check both ACIAs, they both could have the same hack.

User avatar
dml
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 3472
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Falcon Problem

Postby dml » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:17 pm

exxos wrote:So if DSP isn't working on CT60 then thats another problem... Though as CT60 boots TOS, It would have thought TOS on the 030 wouldn't hang due to DSP related problems either ?


Yeah this one is fuzzy - there are definitely problems booting a plain Falcon with a dead DSP clock or DSP, and IIRC it hangs fairly late during boot, maybe after the logo like this....

It's hard to compare with CT60 boot sequence since it has been modified quite a bit. Maybe it tell us something, maybe not.

But if the DSP doesn't work in 060 mode, it would cast some doubt ot the 030 booting normally.


Basically I think there are still a bunch of things needing investigated on this board - which isn't bad news really :)

User avatar
paul92706
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:28 am
Location: Orange, CA

Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:21 pm

exxos wrote:So if DSP isn't working on CT60 then thats another problem... Though as CT60 boots TOS, It would have thought TOS on the 030 wouldn't hang due to DSP related problems either ?

Thats a good question exxos, thats what i though.
Atari Falcon CT60/CTPCI 14MB+ 512mb ATI9250 + NetUSBee
Atari Falcon030 CF 4gb + NetUSBee+ 14MB Ram
Atari TT030 2meg STRAM/16meg TTRAM + Nova Adaptor +Maxtor SCSI HD + DaynaPort Pocket SCSI

User avatar
dml
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 3472
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Falcon Problem

Postby dml » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:22 pm

paul92706 wrote:What exactly is this mod DML?


One of the ACIA mods involved forcing a 500kHz signal when accelerators would have raised it, having a global multiplying effect on all the clocks. The ACIAs only work properly with the original 500kHz clock. So pins/tracks got cut and a wire soldered to the pins to feed 500k from a unique source on the accelerator.

The other mod used one of the pins on the ACIAs as a switching line to toggle the accelerator on/off. It is programmable from the Falcon's CPU.

I don't remember which is which but both involve hacking the ACIAs (both of them in some cases). These changes need reversed for the machine to boot.

User avatar
paul92706
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:28 am
Location: Orange, CA

Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:25 pm

dml wrote:
exxos wrote:So if DSP isn't working on CT60 then thats another problem... Though as CT60 boots TOS, It would have thought TOS on the 030 wouldn't hang due to DSP related problems either ?


Yeah this one is fuzzy - there are definitely problems booting a plain Falcon with a dead DSP clock or DSP, and IIRC it hangs fairly late during boot, maybe after the logo like this....

It's hard to compare with CT60 boot sequence since it has been modified quite a bit. Maybe it tell us something, maybe not.

But if the DSP doesn't work in 060 mode, it would cast some doubt ot the 030 booting normally.


Basically I think there are still a bunch of things needing investigated on this board - which isn't bad news really :)

Actually i remember my old Falcon (sent to rodolphe) had a shot out DSP completly dead, and it booted fine, so i dont know if to rule the DSP out, but then again it could be shorted on some important siganl. I will revise DSP circuitry and ACIA, later on the day. Good point DML
Atari Falcon CT60/CTPCI 14MB+ 512mb ATI9250 + NetUSBee
Atari Falcon030 CF 4gb + NetUSBee+ 14MB Ram
Atari TT030 2meg STRAM/16meg TTRAM + Nova Adaptor +Maxtor SCSI HD + DaynaPort Pocket SCSI

User avatar
exxos
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4933
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:33 pm

ACIA does the keyboard doesn't it ? if that works with CT60 installed then should be good.

Though CT60 also had mods to speed up the falcons bus to 20mhz, and double clock the ACIA and other things, though there was some small inductors removed or changed somewhere while doing that mod ? Could be one of those inductors is missing totally near the 030 ? I never looked at that kinda stuff after nemesis, but might be worth looking at the 030 mods (should be in CT60 manual somewhere) and check all the solder points and changes are "un done" correctly. I half remember some SMT parts being removed, maybe 2 resistors or something.. can't really remember as was like 10 years ago :lol:

Found it

http://www.powerphenix.com/CT60/english/Fitt_sold.htm

Could be your DSP hasn't got a clock input if the trace has been cut ?
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

User avatar
paul92706
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:28 am
Location: Orange, CA

Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:07 pm

exxos wrote:ACIA does the keyboard doesn't it ? if that works with CT60 installed then should be good.

Though CT60 also had mods to speed up the falcons bus to 20mhz, and double clock the ACIA and other things, though there was some small inductors removed or changed somewhere while doing that mod ? Could be one of those inductors is missing totally near the 030 ? I never looked at that kinda stuff after nemesis, but might be worth looking at the 030 mods (should be in CT60 manual somewhere) and check all the solder points and changes are "un done" correctly. I half remember some SMT parts being removed, maybe 2 resistors or something.. can't really remember as was like 10 years ago :lol:

Found it

http://www.powerphenix.com/CT60/english/Fitt_sold.htm

Could be your DSP hasn't got a clock input if the trace has been cut ?

interesting!, all inductors seem to be in place, i dont see any missing inductors or components around or near CPU and DSP and all around Motherboard. The 32mhz clock is feeding the DSP correctly as i measured it. It seems like everything is intact, but i will later on check ACIA signals and DSP signals and see what i can find.
Atari Falcon CT60/CTPCI 14MB+ 512mb ATI9250 + NetUSBee
Atari Falcon030 CF 4gb + NetUSBee+ 14MB Ram
Atari TT030 2meg STRAM/16meg TTRAM + Nova Adaptor +Maxtor SCSI HD + DaynaPort Pocket SCSI

User avatar
paul92706
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:28 am
Location: Orange, CA

Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:46 pm

exxos wrote:ACIA does the keyboard doesn't it ? if that works with CT60 installed then should be good.

Though CT60 also had mods to speed up the falcons bus to 20mhz, and double clock the ACIA and other things, though there was some small inductors removed or changed somewhere while doing that mod ? Could be one of those inductors is missing totally near the 030 ? I never looked at that kinda stuff after nemesis, but might be worth looking at the 030 mods (should be in CT60 manual somewhere) and check all the solder points and changes are "un done" correctly. I half remember some SMT parts being removed, maybe 2 resistors or something.. can't really remember as was like 10 years ago :lol:

Found it

http://www.powerphenix.com/CT60/english/Fitt_sold.htm

Could be your DSP hasn't got a clock input if the trace has been cut ?

Thanks Exxos!! this was the MOD that was performed on my faulty motherboard, the CT60 was fitted with solder version. Now to go back and see what was cutt and replaced, and repair it if it hasn't been repaired. Thanks so now we know what MOD was performed on my motherboard!! :contract:
Atari Falcon CT60/CTPCI 14MB+ 512mb ATI9250 + NetUSBee
Atari Falcon030 CF 4gb + NetUSBee+ 14MB Ram
Atari TT030 2meg STRAM/16meg TTRAM + Nova Adaptor +Maxtor SCSI HD + DaynaPort Pocket SCSI

User avatar
exxos
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4933
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:33 pm

Keeps you out of trouble for a bit ;)
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

User avatar
paul92706
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:28 am
Location: Orange, CA

Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:23 am

Ok after checking all traces and changes done for the CT60 booster solder mod, everything turned out good. I checked the 500khz signals and 32mhz signal and other changes made for the mod. Everything seemed to be reoworked back to stock. Now after doing some more debugging, i came across something strange. Over at the SCSI Controller, there is a signal, pin 19 known as I/O Read, which is for reading control register. Now when this signal is logic low it reads the control register. when logic high it does opposite. Anyhow right at power on, the I/O signal is pulled low, then goes high for a few nano secs then after it is constant low. Now this is not right. This signal is derived from the DMA, so it seems the DMA is trying to access the control register for a read and isn't letting it go. This could be why its not getting past the Atari logo?
Atari Falcon CT60/CTPCI 14MB+ 512mb ATI9250 + NetUSBee
Atari Falcon030 CF 4gb + NetUSBee+ 14MB Ram
Atari TT030 2meg STRAM/16meg TTRAM + Nova Adaptor +Maxtor SCSI HD + DaynaPort Pocket SCSI

User avatar
paul92706
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:28 am
Location: Orange, CA

Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:25 pm

PROBLEM FIXED!!! another dead bird has Rised!! probelm were, replace basically the entire motherboard IC's :lol: main problem was jumping pin 7 (CIIN-) on jumper pad and replacing 2 Buffer/Drivers, and whala!! presto she woke up! Anyhow i want to thank Rodolphe P., Exxos, DML, Calimero, if it was for you guy's this bird might of never have risen!you guys are my hero's thank you thank you greatly my deer friends!!! 8 months of debugging and countless hours of troubleshooting! i guess i can proudly say i am a die hard Atarian! :cheers: :cheers:
Last edited by paul92706 on Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Atari Falcon CT60/CTPCI 14MB+ 512mb ATI9250 + NetUSBee
Atari Falcon030 CF 4gb + NetUSBee+ 14MB Ram
Atari TT030 2meg STRAM/16meg TTRAM + Nova Adaptor +Maxtor SCSI HD + DaynaPort Pocket SCSI

rpineau
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:39 am
Location: California / USA
Contact:

Re: Falcon Problem

Postby rpineau » Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:28 pm

Congrats !!

Rodolphe P.
Falcon + AB040 + Eclipse PCI + ATI Rage VGA card + NE2000 Ethernec + HxC Floppy Emulator
MegaSTE 4MB + CosmosEx / 1040 STF for hardware dev
http://www.rti-zone.org/atari.php

User avatar
exxos
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4933
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:47 pm

Fantastic :cheers: Falcon is now a Phoenix :) 8)
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

User avatar
dml
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 3472
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Falcon Problem

Postby dml » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:12 am

Nice!

Now that you are possibly the only Falcon owner with a formal 25MHz 68030 (instead of Atari's 16MHz OEM renumbered part) stuck directly on the board, I wonder what kind of interesting clock hacks you can do with it next :)

Rustynutt
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:38 am
Location: Oregon
Contact:

Re: Falcon Problem

Postby Rustynutt » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:37 am

paul92706 wrote:PROBLEM FIXED!!! another dead bird has Rised!! probelm were, replace basically the entire motherboard IC's :lol: main problem was jumping pin 7 (CIIN-) on jumper pad and replacing 2 Buffer/Drivers, and whala!! presto she woke up! Anyhow i want to thank Rodolphe P., Exxos, DML, Calimero, if it was for you guy's this bird might of never have risen!you guys are my hero's thank you thank you greatly my deer friends!!! 8 months of debugging and countless hours of troubleshooting! i guess i can proudly say i am a die hard Atarian! :cheers: :cheers:


Hopefully all ya all are still around :)
One, recently sold a "dead" Falcon motherboard to a guy in So Cal, wondering if you were the buyer Paul?
If so, have a lot of information to share :)

Know one of the first things going on according to the FSM is the cartridge port is checked for a "magic" number. If- else, boots from ROM.

Been working on a board, one of the last issues were with the FPU. Booting with a diagnostic cart, the first check on the screen is to initialize the FPU.

Scenario on this Falcon:

No FPU installed, diagnostic reports not found and continues to execute to menu.

FPU installed, FPU clock supplied from 32mHz oscillator (NTSC machine).
Diagnostic initializes FPU, continues to execute to menu.

FPU installed, no clock present. Diagnostic fails FPU initialization, reports two bus errors with accompanying red display, continues to execute to menu.

Pertinent to this old thread, is under diagnostic boot, FPU is first on the list to be initialized.

I'm not clear on what "pin 7 on jumper pad" is. You mean U46 or U47?
Which buffer/driver id's were replaced?

Why do I have the FPU clocked at 32 mHz from the main oscillator?
Well, this all started after what was supposed to be an easy job removing an Eagle Sonic card.
Some of the mods to the Falcon are similar to an AB or Mighty Sonic installation, topic here pin 16 and pin 17 of the Falcon SMT CPU are lifted off the solder pad, one jumped to ground and the other left to float.
I'd resoldered pin 16 and 17 of the CPU back to their pads. Cleaned up some other areas and confirmed the machine to boot.

Without doing any other testing, moved forward installing an exxos clock patch, as this machine didn't have one.
Rebooted after the installation without issue. (Thanks to exxos for making available a clean little non-intrusive board
to simply implement the patch). Other than the CPU pin mod, this is a virgin board, nice to keep it clean.

Didn't take long running through various programs, where it was know which IC's are being accessed or used for processing, for the newspaper in the bird cage to get real dirty :) For a change of pace, decided to approach the problem with some semblance of methodology :)

Back to the FPU. I traced out the FPU/DMA clock lines from R221 to the FPU socket, from there to clock in of the DMA. Checked against for shorts between as many traces as possible, and shorts to ground. Verified C208 on the underside of the main board is not installed. Without a scope, cannot verify the 16mHz COMBEL clock to the FPU/DMA line, however with the FPU removed from socket, DMA is functioning.
What I haven't been able to resolve is why the FPU errors and is either not initialized, or is the cause of bus errors. Various FPU test and programs all fail with the FPU in the socket being fed from R221. If an FPU is installed where the clock in pin does not make contact with its socket, and fed from a different clock source, everything is peaches and cream.

I didn't at first treat this as a separate issue, until when back tracking discovered my solder work on pin 16 of the CPU was pretty bad, in fact, the CPU pin was just floating. I'm sure this caused all sorts of bus errors, as after poking at the same little thing with three types of flux, and a tip near twice the size of the pin about 30 times finally yielded a satisfactory solder joint.

Booted back up (this Falcon NEVER requires a reset, always boots first time every time) and started the same test process without any errors. Ran the piss out of the diagnostic cart with flying colors, some test several times.

So went back and revisited the FPU issue hoping that too had been resolved.
Nope, exact same situation as described above.
So for now, have left the FPU clocked aside from the clock patch feeds and view it as an individual problem.
If not for that, ALL I'd have to do to make this an awesome stock machine is to install a new NVRAM :)

Hope this either enlightens, confirms, provides solidarity or humor for other users :)

Throughout all of it, learned a lot about the bus PALs and GAL. Someone correct me if my memory is bad, seem to recall Cubza during the early phases of the CT60 consider removing them completely. For whatever reason, he didn't go that way, maybe because they actually do a good job of glueing board components together in simple fashion, and wasn't worth effort to integrate into his design. That's cool, with little effort, address pointers cold be changed to say, where a DSP is located on the Falcon :)


Social Media

     

Return to “Professionals”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests