Falcon Doom

All about games on the Falcon, TT & clones

Moderators: Mug UK, moondog/.tSCc., [ProToS], lp, Moderator Team

EvilFranky
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 872
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:49 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby EvilFranky » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:40 pm

I guess even the smallest of speed-ups will seem quite significant on the Falcon, 1-2 FPS difference in certain areas could make the game actually playable.

I suppose as an end user and a total Falcon nut (having at the age of 13 basically begged the parents to get me one for xmas 1993, even though you could see the PC age on the horizon) I've always just wanted to see what it could do when talented coders really pushed it. This last 4-6 months have given the Falcon a bit of new life, the releases of Galaga 88 & Beats of Rage have proven what we all kinda knew...the Falcon was a weapon. But probably 2 years too late.

Great to see people like yourself having a renewed interest and taking stuff from years ago and setting a fresh pair of eyes on it :cheers:

User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2320
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: STara Pazova, Serbia
Contact:

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby calimero » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:06 pm

dml wrote:I really meant something that only exists for Falcon - not a port of some other existing game. Use BM to draw stuff, but the game part is unique. However, we'll see. I have a lot to think about before taking any steps in either direction.

I remember that you have same idea back than (to make unique game)...
I did made 3D scene in NeoN and render some textures for this but I never know how to include them in WAD :)
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2320
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: STara Pazova, Serbia
Contact:

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby calimero » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:12 pm

dml wrote:Press 'F' for fullscreen mode, and press '5' to enable the FPS counter, and let it settle. Please report the FPS figure back to me here, for both versions of the TTP in the ZIP.

RGB:
BM1.ttp gets 8.6486 FPS
BM2.ttp gets 8.6021 FPS

VGA
BM1.ttp gets 7.5829 FPS
BM2.ttp gets 7.5117 FPS
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

User avatar
dml
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 3480
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby dml » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:33 pm

calimero wrote:RGB:
BM1.ttp gets 8.6486 FPS
BM2.ttp gets 8.6021 FPS

VGA
BM1.ttp gets 7.5829 FPS
BM2.ttp gets 7.5117 FPS


Ok that's interesting - a tiny but measurable difference, thanks.

User avatar
dml
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 3480
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby dml » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:34 pm

calimero wrote:I remember that you have same idea back than (to make unique game)...
I did made 3D scene in NeoN and render some textures for this but I never know how to include them in WAD :)


I'll take a look at that whole situation again soon - it can be done with a PC doom level editor but there is a port of DEU (GEMDeu) for the Atari which may have been able to do it. in any case it can be done, just need to remember the details... :)

D.

User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2320
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: STara Pazova, Serbia
Contact:

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby calimero » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:21 pm

dml wrote:
calimero wrote:RGB:
BM1.ttp gets 8.6486 FPS
BM2.ttp gets 8.6021 FPS

VGA
BM1.ttp gets 7.5829 FPS
BM2.ttp gets 7.5117 FPS


Ok that's interesting - a tiny but measurable difference, thanks.

I try it with CT63/72MHz:
BM1.ttp 7.3059FPS
BM2.ttp - FPS is not stable but it is in range from 7.1700 - 7.2400FPS (in RGB mode)

...so it is slower than 030 mode
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

User avatar
dml
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 3480
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby dml » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:06 pm

calimero wrote:I try it with CT63/72MHz:
BM1.ttp 7.3059FPS
BM2.ttp - FPS is not stable but it is in range from 7.1700 - 7.2400FPS (in RGB mode)
...so it is slower than 030 mode


BM2 won't work on 060 because it changes the CACR register in a rude way. BM1 should be ok. Interesting that it seems to be stuck at 7fps for both though. The test wasn't really intended for 060 but it looks like it might be DSP-limited on all machines, with texturing off. I'll find out for sure next week. I used to know where the bottlenecks where but have forgotten so it needs profiling.

Can you adjust DSP clock on your CT63 in software? only the DSP - not the main board. not sure if that's possible.

Actually thinking about it, i can do this test myself using my 040 machine with the 040 turned off... it has a fixed 50mhz DSP where the others have 32mhz.

If a boosted DSP yields significantly higher fps, this will tell if BM is DSP limited with textures off - which could need attention before trying to speed up texturing.

User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2320
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: STara Pazova, Serbia
Contact:

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby calimero » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:15 pm

dml wrote:BM2 won't work on 060 because it changes the CACR register in a rude way. BM1 should be ok.

well both works on ct63 ;)

dml wrote:Can you adjust DSP clock on your CT63 in software? only the DSP - not the main board. not sure if that's possible.

it is possible but you need to wire DSP to faster quartz.
but I am not to good with iron and soldering... :) I already damage one Falcon.
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

User avatar
dml
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 3480
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby dml » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:47 pm

calimero wrote:it is possible but you need to wire DSP to faster quartz.
but I am not to good with iron and soldering... :) I already damage one Falcon.


Aaa don't do that then :)

I know some CT60s have a solder wire to the DSP and a software controlled clock. But I haven't worked out the details yet - e.g. if the DSP can be clocked separately.

I realise some CT60s are fitted in a 'clean' way with no solders too.

Anyway i can do those tests here, no problem.

User avatar
dml
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 3480
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby dml » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:20 pm

Does anyone know if Anthony Jacques' GEM-DEU level editor is available anywhere in source form? I have a build of it sleeping on my Falcon but I don't think there is source... I can see a growing need to make mods to it in the future if I'm going to mess with BM.

If there are any decent PC doom level editors nowadays which can run under XP or Win7 (or OSX?) that would also be interesting but being able to mod the code is probably going to become a requirement so I don't want to get too attached to anything that I can't change.

User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2320
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: STara Pazova, Serbia
Contact:

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby calimero » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:08 pm

dml wrote:Does anyone know if Anthony Jacques' GEM-DEU level editor is available anywhere in source form? I have a build of it sleeping on my Falcon but I don't think there is source... I can see a growing need to make mods to it in the future if I'm going to mess with BM.

If there are any decent PC doom level editors nowadays which can run under XP or Win7 (or OSX?) that would also be interesting but being able to mod the code is probably going to become a requirement so I don't want to get too attached to anything that I can't change.

I found his page but there is no source code for GEM-DEU...

http://web.archive.org/web/201210112316 ... nload.html

and this WAS his page about GEM-DEU http://web.archive.org/web/201210112316 ... m-deu.html

link to source WAS: http://www.btinternet.com/~anthonyj/Atari/deusrc.zip ...but if once was on internet, than there is somewhere... :D

I will continue to search.

Possible filenames:
deu8-src.zip
Last edited by calimero on Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

User avatar
dml
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 3480
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby dml » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:27 pm

Looks like Anthony and his source have 'gone offworld'. :-z

Good luck finding it - his old email address is dead and waybackmachine doesn't know about the zip.

Shredder11
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2434
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:23 pm
Location: West Yorkshire, United Kingdom (England)
Contact:

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby Shredder11 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:58 pm

dml wrote:
...why port Doom directly? Everyone must be sick of it by now!



Judging by the zillions of first person shooters that have been released since then and continue to be released, I suspect the buying public are still hooked on them! :(

User avatar
dml
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 3480
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby dml » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:03 pm

Shredder11 wrote:Judging by the zillions of first person shooters that have been released since then and continue to be released, I suspect the buying public are still hooked on them! :(


Sure, but I suspect the Atari community might welcome a new game (using Doom-like tech) more than yet another version of Doom - which exists on every system under the sun fast enough to run it. Not that I'm against having a decent (stock 030) port of Doom :) but on balance new stuff would probably be more appealing for the effort invested.

OTOH a direct port can be done without new maps and graphics, so it is more likely to reach a conclusion in a sensible timeframe.

kristjanga
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 400
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:35 pm

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby kristjanga » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:08 pm

why port doom for a normal Atari Falcon you say?

well one answer is that it is a shame that this great computer does not have this epic and historical game
in its game menu

I just think it is sad, this computer has the power to play this game.

personally I would pay for the doom engine if it would be finished.
Please finish this great engine :!:
here is a video of bad mood in action on my normal atari falcon with 16mb and fpu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw1PyUkVuZk

User avatar
dml
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 3480
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby dml » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:15 pm

kristjanga wrote:why port doom for a normal Atari Falcon you say?
well one answer is that it is a shame that this great computer does not have this epic and historical game
in its game menu
I just think it is sad, this computer has the power to play this game.


Ok I'm taking all this onboard and it seems a direct port is preferable to a new game design. Which probably makes sense, at least short-term, and until the novelty wears off :)

I'd really like to see some novel new stuff on Atari using similar or improved technology, versus direct porting - something other platforms don't have - but it can be another step in the future perhaps.

kristjanga
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 400
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:35 pm

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby kristjanga » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:25 pm

well direct porting has already been done.. but to play that you need ct60!

direct porting of this game is not a option if it should be playable on a 16mhz 16mb atari falcon with fpu
then we need a new engine to drive the game

if that would be done a AI would of course be different than the original but I do not see that as a major problem
in fact I just see that as more fun

I wonder if a fast engine to drive the game is possible if then we could get other early id games also onto the falcon?

User avatar
030falcon030
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 749
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:59 pm
Location: North Somerset.england
Contact:

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby 030falcon030 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:25 pm

Well if you port doom, there are already a lot of custom wads that you can look at so I think this may be part of the attraction.
hmmm:/
I have an ste 4mb... with a 20mb powerdrive slimline and a cumana external fdd.
And a falcon 14mb w/ ct63 + ctpci

User avatar
dml
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 3480
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby dml » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:35 pm

Well to be clear, I'm really trying to weigh the pros and cons of finishing/attaching BM to the Doom code (not a direct port exactly - I didn't choose my words very well - but using the original Doom game code with BM 'accelerated' rendering) and an *improved* engine which still works with WAD tools but can do more stuff (like portals!) but needs new maps and AI written.

The latter seems more exciting to do, but the former is achievable in less time.

In fact both can happen if the engine is kept separate, but engine improvements take time and maps take much more time... so focusing on an 'enhanced port' of classic Doom seems to be preferred...

[edit]

...plus improving the engine is pointless if nobody is available to make new levels... so I could imagine making lots of cool extensions to the engine, and it only ever becomes a 1-level demo to show the extensions - which would itself be frustrating :)

User avatar
nativ
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4106
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:26 am
Location: South West, UK

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby nativ » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:01 pm

hmmm just another thought......

http://code.google.com/p/xybots/

How would a variant or remake of Xybots fit into this engine? (if at all )

edit

http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=15752

and these 3D ? things move real fast on a Falcon could this type be used in a game?
Last edited by nativ on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Atari STFM 512 / STe 4MB / Mega ST+DSP / Falcon 4MB 16Mhz 68882 - DVD/CDRW/ZIP/DAT - FDI / Jaguar / Lynx 1&2 / 7800 / 2600 / XE 130+SD Card // Sega Dreamcast / Mega2+CD2 // Apple G4

http://soundcloud.com/nativ ~ http://soundcloud.com/nativ-1 ~ http://soundcloud.com/knot_music
http://soundcloud.com/push-sounds ~ http://soundcloud.com/push-records

kristjanga
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 400
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:35 pm

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby kristjanga » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:54 pm

Dml.. what about forming a coding team for this project? "Team DOOM the resurrection" :twisted:

User avatar
LaurentS
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:41 pm

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby LaurentS » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:33 pm

For me, having the original Doom is a first point, but a big one : with all the mods, it would make a long life game.

But it should fit in a standard 4 Mo Falcon (I don't own 14 Megs) ;)

Do as you can, coding on Falcon must stay a pleasure nowadays, it's just for fun.

Regards

Laurent

User avatar
NGF
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:22 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby NGF » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:02 pm

Doom is a long life game for sure, I still make levels for Doom2.

Wouldn't it be good trying the source code for the jaguar port? I'm sure its pretty optimized and the wad simplified.
"4160" STE with Ultrasatan | Falcon 030 14MB with CF-reader | TT030 | STacy | 520STFM x 2 | 520ST x 2

User avatar
030falcon030
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 749
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:59 pm
Location: North Somerset.england
Contact:

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby 030falcon030 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:06 pm

AFAIK (from looking on jaguar sector forum) the Jag wad is available already. Had always wondered if it would run better.
hmmm:/
I have an ste 4mb... with a 20mb powerdrive slimline and a cumana external fdd.
And a falcon 14mb w/ ct63 + ctpci

User avatar
dml
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 3480
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Falcon Doom

Postby dml » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:08 pm

Is the Jaguar WAD stored in some other funny format? Is it likely to just work as is? It's probably worth a look because much of the overhead is sector fragmentation in the floors which is invisible and the DSP is extremely busy defragmenting it all for drawing. If the Jag WAD is simplified it may help with that.

[edit]

Looks like there are different versions of the Jag WAD already, and related conversion tools. I'll have to dig through it all to find out what's been going on and what resources are available now.

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/5 ... onversion/


Social Media

     

Return to “Games”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests