Falcon Doom

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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby kristjanga » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:42 am

NGF wrote:Sorry about resurrecting this old thread but what is the current status on the different ports of DOOM for TT/Falcon? Are anyone still active working on a source port?
Have any ports managed to get full speed on vanilla flavoured TT or Falcon?

I dont thinl anyone is working on them unforunetly
since pmdoom works on ct60 i guess we will never have a doom working on a normal falcon, wich is too bad

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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby wongck » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:50 am

And with the CTPCI ATI radeon??
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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby 030falcon030 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:26 pm

Dont think there has been any progress for years now.
You can get full speed on a stock falcon (Possibly not TT) on one of the ports, but all you can do is run around the level.
If you want to shoot, complete missions etc then you have to use pmdoom.
Best way to actually play doom without upgrading your falcon is to do that and use whatever options can save memory when launching it and also use a very small screen.
I could play quake full speed on my ct60 but my falcons been knocked out by a power surge :cry:
Now got to save money before I can start fixing :(
hmmm:/
I have an ste 4mb... with a 20mb powerdrive slimline and a cumana external fdd.
And a falcon 14mb w/ ct63 + ctpci

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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby NGF » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:38 pm

Sorry to hear about your Falcons, hope they will be up an running again soon!

I have yet to try any source ports of DOOM on my TT and Falcon, but I do believe with enough work and optimization atleast the TT one should be able to run DOOM in fullspeed. The TT performs roughly as an 386 PC, which was what DOOM was aimed at. If I'm wrong, surely the jaguar source and/or somewhat simplified levels should work. Also a Falcon port should run at ok speed with help from DSP. I'm no programming guru but thats my ideas anyways.
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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby wongck » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:35 am

030falcon030 wrote:I could play quake full speed on my ct60 but my falcons been knocked out by a power surge :cry:
Now got to save money before I can start fixing :(


Sorry about your falc.
But at least you did not have to pay for it in the first place.
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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby wongck » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:36 am

NGF wrote:Also a Falcon port should run at ok speed with help from DSP. I'm no programming guru but thats my ideas anyways.

DSP probably only for the sound.
Which at least frees up some stuff to do for the cpu.
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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby jury » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:00 am

wongck wrote:DSP probably only for the sound.
Which at least frees up some stuff to do for the cpu.


Why only for the sound? DSP is a signall processor which can do arithmetic trylion times faster than 030 :) so why use it only for sound?

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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby wongck » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:29 am

jury wrote:
wongck wrote:DSP probably only for the sound.
Which at least frees up some stuff to do for the cpu.


Why only for the sound? DSP is a signall processor which can do arithmetic trylion times faster than 030 :) so why use it only for sound?


May be yes.... that would work too. Decoding MP3 with it looks exactly like that. :wink:
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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby yerzmyey » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:47 am

030falcon030 wrote:Best way to actually play doom without upgrading your falcon is to do that and use whatever options can save memory when launching it and also use a very small screen.
I could play quake full speed on my ct60 but my falcons been knocked out by a power surge :cry:



It was always strikingly strange to me.
To make a good 3D engine for Falcon 030 should be not so hard nowadays.

Maybe porting exact PC code is a mistake? There are a lot of native 3D engines on ZX Spectrum 128K and lately - fullscreen 3D engine on Spectrum 48K (maybe one day I will try to force the author to make a full ZX48 game on it :twisted: ).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCwZQ-ZnXlc (start from 1:50 min).
Anywayz. Regardless the Wold3D. Falcon is a little bit more complicated than Spectrum48, so the Doom-like engine should be possible to do.

Another thing - Wolf3D for Atari ST. if such a thing exist (and it does as I play it sometimes) then even more should exist Doom for F030.
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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby NGF » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:57 pm

yerzmyey wrote:
030falcon030 wrote:Best way to actually play doom without upgrading your falcon is to do that and use whatever options can save memory when launching it and also use a very small screen.
I could play quake full speed on my ct60 but my falcons been knocked out by a power surge :cry:



It was always strikingly strange to me.
To make a good 3D engine for Falcon 030 should be not so hard nowadays.

Maybe porting exact PC code is a mistake? There are a lot of native 3D engines on ZX Spectrum 128K and lately - fullscreen 3D engine on Spectrum 48K (maybe one day I will try to force the author to make a full ZX48 game on it :twisted: ).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCwZQ-ZnXlc (start from 1:50 min).
Anywayz. Regardless the Wold3D. Falcon is a little bit more complicated than Spectrum48, so the Doom-like engine should be possible to do.

Another thing - Wolf3D for Atari ST. if such a thing exist (and it does as I play it sometimes) then even more should exist Doom for F030.


Yes that is what I have been thinking too, shouldn't be impossible to get good speed on Falcon/TT, maybe simplify the floor textures or something. But I shouldn't say so much since I can't do it myself :roll:

btw your music is great, keep up the good work 8)
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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby nativ » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:40 am

There is also an interesting project on the Atari XE Wolf/Doom type, looks very promising.

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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby yerzmyey » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:01 am

NGF: thx man. ;)



nativ: yeah, I've seen it too. That's what we mean actually:
maybe it's a mistake to take code from PC/Pentium and simplify it.

Maybe - and I would say: most probably - would be better to take code from ST plus 8bitters and _develop_ it, adding stuff (colours, more enemies, whatever what CPU can stand in opposition to 'smaller' machines).
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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby kristjanga » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:49 pm

:megaphone: programers! get to work ..

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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby MadMax2023 » Tue May 10, 2011 11:05 am

I only tried PmDoom on a TT030, a stock Falcon and an accelerated one with CT60 board.

On the TT030 it was AWFUL, not one frame per second! (i did a video you can see on youtube).
On a stock Falcon curiously ancient version seem to be faster, i got the nicest result with 0.25 version (i also hosted a video on youtube).
And of course on a CT60 Falcon it's fullspeed in fullscreen, perfect.

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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby wongck » Fri May 13, 2011 3:04 am

MadMax2023 wrote:I only tried PmDoom on a TT030, a stock Falcon and an accelerated one with CT60 board.

On the TT030 it was AWFUL, not one frame per second! (i did a video you can see on youtube).
On a stock Falcon curiously ancient version seem to be faster, i got the nicest result with 0.25 version (i also hosted a video on youtube).
And of course on a CT60 Falcon it's fullspeed in fullscreen, perfect.


surprised.
Stock Falcon is 1/2 speed of TT, yet it scores better?
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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby MadMax2023 » Mon May 16, 2011 9:16 am

I don't know why, my TT was really 32 mhz, and it was sooooo slow... I tried it again with 16 mo memory but there was no improvement.
Anyway even on a Falcon (i tried many version on Falcon to find the best result) it's too slow to be really playable. It needs an accelerator, maybe a CT2 is enough?

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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby Ato » Tue May 17, 2011 9:25 am

MadMax2023 wrote:It needs an accelerator, maybe a CT2 is enough?

I honestly believe it needs a proper port to the Falcon. The DSP should be able to help a lot with geometric transformations, sound mixing, etc.

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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby nativ » Tue May 17, 2011 1:07 pm

yerzmyey wrote:NGF: thx man. ;)



nativ: yeah, I've seen it too. That's what we mean actually:
maybe it's a mistake to take code from PC/Pentium and simplify it.

Maybe - and I would say: most probably - would be better to take code from ST plus 8bitters and _develop_ it, adding stuff (colours, more enemies, whatever what CPU can stand in opposition to 'smaller' machines).


I'd start with the Jaguar version.

I am increasingly impressed and surprised with the XE, really does everything I wanted the Spectrum to do! Still the ST an 'e' have lots of life left and the falcon is eternal! ;)

ST games ought to be at least 128 colours 256 STe

I have seen it in so many demos nice techniques, only Thalion ever did anything! (and agression)

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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby EvilFranky » Fri May 20, 2011 12:24 pm

A from scratch Falcon specific Doom conversion will never happen.

It would be nice to see though that's for certain. Original DSP based Doom engines are ancient now and I suspect there are better more efficient techniques for 3D calculations...just got to look at some of the later 3D demos for evidence of that. I know this isn't the same as doing 3D in a gaming environment though.

It would be interesting to hear from an experienced Falcon programmer about this.

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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby SofiST » Fri May 20, 2011 12:45 pm

nativ wrote: ...
ST games ought to be at least 128 colours 256 STe
I have seen it in so many demos nice techniques, only Thalion ever did anything! (and agression)
:)


More than 16 colors at once on ST(E) is possible, but it takes usually some CPU time, so suitable only for simpler games. 3D is certainly not it.
But many 3D game has more than 16 colors - achieved by switching palette after some lines. Like in EPIC and many other - where instrument panel of vehicle has own palette.

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TT speed with 3D

Postby SofiST » Tue May 24, 2011 12:36 pm

Some thoughts and expereiences, tests according 3D game speed on TT :

I did run many 3D games on TT recently. Impression is that they work not noticeable faster than on Falcon - with same cache settings.

The explanation could be: CPU in TT runs at 32MHz, but not if accessing RAM. Especially ST RAM is slow. Cycle time is same as on ST, 250 nS . As many 3D game is not made to run (well) from TT RAM , they run from ST RAM. My speed tests confirm it: TT with caches on has speed index around 70 ( as ST at 70 MHz) . Falcon has aprox half of that, normally. But if turn TT caches off, speed index goes low to aprox 16. So, low, because slow RAM access. Even if cache is on, by code accessing a lot of RAM, what is normally by 3D code there will be many RAM access, especially as cache size of 68030 is small (2x256 bytes). All in all, 32 MHz means not much more than 16MHz for 3D games.

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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby wongck » Tue May 24, 2011 2:51 pm

Thanks for the theory of TT speed in 3D.
This is a good explanation to the mystery of TT same speed or slower than Falcon as seen in above test.
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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby dml » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:55 pm

BadMood used the DSP for perspective division and for BSP node visibility tests, among other things. The drawing was done by the CPU. It wasn't a really a port, but a from-scratch renderer for the Falcon. It used 'truecolour' and the depth/shadow shading tables took advantage of that so the shading is more subtle than the PC version in 256 colours. I decided this was going to be faster on a normal Falcon than 256 colours + c2p conversion cost and the extra shading helped make that decision firm.

I haven't touched it in years but I'll probably have another look before I repost the source. There were still optimizations waiting to be made and the last problem was making the sprites move properly between sectors so they would still draw properly w.r.t. walls. It really just required a programmer with the will and time to add some 2D vector-based AI and line-of-sight checking and shooting logic. And some custom sprites and maps... I just was too busy to start implementing a 'game with no design' with other stuff going on at the time...

Note: It was made for a Falcon '030, not a 68040 or 68060 so the design decisions would have been different for the latter...

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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby LaurentS » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:51 pm

Hi,

I remind Badmood. This was a very promizing Doom for standard Falcon.
It used intensive DSP code and the result was unbelievable (quite fast, beatiful, with lots of colors, shadows, lightning effects, ...)

I think this approach is the good one to have a descent Doom on Falcon.
It's sad that it was not finished.

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Laurent / Thadoss

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Re: Falcon Doom

Postby EvilFranky » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:01 pm

I loved messing about with this at the time, 16-bit colour Doom...made the PC version look cack :mrgreen:

Was a shame it never became a complete game but guess there is a large amount of work to be done.

Doug - so you think it could be made faster again?


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