PhotoChrome v6

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby dml » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:14 pm

Steven Seagal wrote:
I ask this because you won't get the same problems with v3.5.4.


I have confirmed (very quickly) this is the case - test pattern looks correct now. I'll test it more properly during the week.

:cheers:

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby dml » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:34 pm

While the timing in STeem now looks correct - the display area is smaller.

I get (384 x 270) in STeem but (408 x 274) in Hatari and real HW + CRT. So there is still unexpected cropping in the latest version.

I'm not sure if that's deliberate?

[EDIT]

Just found the 'display size' setting and adjusting this to 400x278 corrects the image size, but throws the timings off. I'll post an example later.

[EDIT]

The timings correct themselves @ 400 if I disable the 'hacks' flag.

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby dml » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:46 pm

Here's a test binary for the same image as last time, but with the new overscan config. It uses the same 3-field conversion settings (not tuned for this image but good enough as a test).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby Steven Seagal » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:48 pm

dml wrote:While the timing in STeem now looks correct - the display area is smaller.

I get (384 x 270) in STeem but (408 x 274) in Hatari and real HW + CRT. So there is still unexpected cropping in the latest version.

I'm not sure if that's deliberate?

It was the original size of Steem, larger sizes were added later, with all bugs/problems that ensue.
But it's worth the trouble.


[EDIT]

Just found the 'display size' setting and adjusting this to 400x278 corrects the image size, but throws the timings off. I'll post an example later.

[EDIT]

The timings correct themselves @ 400 if I disable the 'hacks' flag.


Yes, it's a bug for this combination of overscan/display size/palette timings on STE, thx for reporting, will fix that for next version.
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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby Xerus » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:17 pm

dml wrote:Here's a test binary for the same image as last time, but with the new overscan config. It uses the same 3-field conversion settings (not tuned for this image but good enough as a test).

Tested and approved :D
It's spectacular 8O
There are so many colors that we can distiguer a mist !
Great job, you've transformed the STE in Falcon :lol:

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby dml » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:10 pm

Xerus wrote:
dml wrote:Here's a test binary for the same image as last time, but with the new overscan config. It uses the same 3-field conversion settings (not tuned for this image but good enough as a test).

Tested and approved :D
It's spectacular 8O
There are so many colors that we can distiguer a mist !
Great job, you've transformed the STE in Falcon :lol:


Cool.

I'll try a build using 4 fields next time. I'm tired tonight so it will be next week.

Thanks again for helping with the overscan fun.

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby dml » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:31 am

Steven Seagal wrote:Yes, it's a bug for this combination of overscan/display size/palette timings on STE, thx for reporting, will fix that for next version.


If it helps I can send you a build which displays the timing diagram directly? It might be easier than looking at a picture for off-by-one types of error...

BTW the wakeup state options in STeem are a great idea. How close are they to the real thing? Can they be used to help debug wakeup and cycle sensitivity problems on 'different machines'?

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby Steven Seagal » Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:41 pm

dml wrote:
Steven Seagal wrote:Yes, it's a bug for this combination of overscan/display size/palette timings on STE, thx for reporting, will fix that for next version.


If it helps I can send you a build which displays the timing diagram directly? It might be easier than looking at a picture for off-by-one types of error...


Thx, but this was an obvious bug, easy to fix knowing 'Hacks' had an influence, so it's already fixed.


BTW the wakeup state options in STeem are a great idea. How close are they to the real thing? Can they be used to help debug wakeup and cycle sensitivity problems on 'different machines'?


They're close for STF mode, following ljbk's Excel table, for STE I wouldn't bet on it.
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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby Cyg » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:20 am

Hi Douglas,

Happy to see you pushing the Photochrome limits with this all new v6 :) The result is really neat and stable !

I didn't update my HigeSTcolor encoder/displayer for 1 year because I am meanly focused on demo that use it to produce every FX.
I tested the dual layer with your final picture (not the original, the result looks a little sharpen ?) with a simple dithering 1 every 2 pixels regularly distributed around the perfect color if distance is more than a quarter of a tone (STe Palette) on the 2 layers. It should not flicker too much. (sizes are doubled to see more details)
Image Layer 1
Image Layer 2, complementary dithering
Image mixed result, dual layer
Clouds are not so smooth than yours when you use 3 layers, also because I didn't implemented any final dithering when dual layer is used (should be easy to do in post process).
I had to crop your result a little, my overscan is only 400 pixel wide.
One layer picture with dithering can still produce interesting result but it lacks of colors during the smooth color transition, 12 bits colors only...
Image 1 layer only result with dithering in 320x199

For the record, I already pasted a raster routine that can display 55 colors per line + 2 global colors on any ST 320 pixels wide in an older post from 2011 : http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=81&t=21148

Triple layer encoding is very useful to procuce my demo FX, I use it to mix pictures and other superposed information in separated layers like normal map (NxNyNz information), deformation (UV texel coordinates), Zbuffer, crossfade (2x RVB informations).
In Circus Back²STage, 2 FX are triple layers encoded, the clown depth of field/bokeh and the morphing clowns' faces FX are made of 2 picture layers (neat picture + a fully bokeh/blurred picture or 2 different clowns for the crossfade) and a zbuffer to determine which areas are to change together.
And the solution is a little more complex / long to find than with one only layer :)

Best regards,
Cyg

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby dml » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:31 pm

Hi Cyg,

Congrats on your latest demo. I liked it a lot!

Cyg wrote:Happy to see you pushing the Photochrome limits with this all new v6 :) The result is really neat and stable !


I'm glad - such types of work really need much broader testing than I did :)

Cyg wrote:I didn't update my HigeSTcolor encoder/displayer for 1 year because I am meanly focused on demo that use it to produce every FX.


Yes its not easy to do good work when too many things are going at once - best to focus on one thing at a time. Sometimes I find that a bit hard, with so many distractions.

Cyg wrote:I tested the dual layer with your final picture (not the original, the result looks a little sharpen ?) with a simple dithering 1 every 2 pixels regularly distributed around the perfect color if distance is more than a quarter of a tone (STe Palette) on the 2 layers. It should not flicker too much. (sizes are doubled to see more details)


Very nice. I think it is quite a useful thing to control the threshold for dithering as you describe. It provides one more way to tune results for a specific image and another way to 'trade down' flicker in some cases...

Cyg wrote:Clouds are not so smooth than yours when you use 3 layers, also because I didn't implemented any final dithering when dual layer is used (should be easy to do in post process).


I still have some problems with error diffusion from PCS v5, since it's done after palettes are generated and suitable near colours might not be there to use (although the error can be bounced a few times in multiple passes to help it settle down). I'm changing this to use input-side error diffusion as the default, and leave the other mode for special cases.

Cyg wrote:For the record, I already pasted a raster routine that can display 55 colors per line + 2 global colors on any ST 320 pixels wide in an older post from 2011 : http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=81&t=21148


Yes that's a pretty good result without blitter. I didn't try any improved ST modes, there doesn't seem like much room to improve things here. There's still a little room left on STE but I have some experiments not yet finished, so will have to wait and see.

Cyg wrote:Triple layer encoding is very useful to procuce my demo FX, I use it to mix pictures and other superposed information in separated layers like normal map (NxNyNz information), deformation (UV texel coordinates), Zbuffer, crossfade (2x RVB informations).
In Circus Back²STage, 2 FX are triple layers encoded, the clown depth of field/bokeh and the morphing clowns' faces FX are made of 2 picture layers (neat picture + a fully bokeh/blurred picture or 2 different clowns for the crossfade) and a zbuffer to determine which areas are to change together.
And the solution is a little more complex / long to find than with one only layer :)


You've done a number of cool things with this already. I think I figured out the solving of some of the FX quite quickly (e.g. colour normals, fades) but didn't know you had a ZBuffer input also, which is a neat idea. I'd like to have a go at this kind of technique sometime but too many unfinished things still. Maybe when I'm done with BM and the rest, ill try. For now I'll be happy to watch what you do with it :)

Best,
Doug.

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby RA_pdx » Fri May 16, 2014 1:53 pm

Hi Doug,

I know you are working on a lot of other stuff but are there any news relating to PhotoChrome v6? :angel:

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby dml » Mon May 26, 2014 12:37 pm

RA_pdx wrote:I know you are working on a lot of other stuff but are there any news relating to PhotoChrome v6? :angel:


Hi Ralf, before I post here please check your email (the other one) ;-)

Best,
D

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby calimero » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:53 pm

hi doug.

could you upload test picture? I can not find test pictures. In uploaded archives there are only ttp.
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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby AtariCrypt » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:03 pm

This is still the kind of thing that blows me away. Any updates Doug?
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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby dml » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:13 pm

calimero wrote:hi doug.

could you upload test picture? I can not find test pictures. In uploaded archives there are only ttp.


Hi,

The test image is baked into the TTP - it's not a proper file viewer, just a test of the displayrout.

The latest PCS6 tool has some stuff in it to make these images but it's not quite finished so i have to build two different versions of the tool for testing those conversions and the displayer is still hardwired to one file at a time...

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby dml » Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:34 pm

Just a quick, if rather late update.

I have now finished the loose ends and written a new manual for this thing, documenting (most of) the hidden stuff. It's missing examples & images but this bit won't take long. It's possible to use the tool now for making your own displaymodes etc. without lots of head-scratching.

I haven't yet got around to tidying up the new v6 STE displayer - but it's really only an example anyway. It's not a new format or anything that really gets in the way of using the tool for demos etc. I will get this bit done soon.

I've been getting a bit of help with bug reports and suggestions (thanks!), most of which are fixed or being fixed.

The CryptoChrome tool will also be integrated into v6.2. (I posted a demo build elsewhere on AF many months ago but probably went unnoticed, being not much use without a manual - this will get documented next)

So I should be able to release v6.2 very soon.

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby DarkLord » Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:18 pm

Awesome news! :cheers:

Geez, Doug - do you do "normal" things, like eat, sleep and work? Can't see how
you find the time for those less important activities. :lol:
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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby AtariCrypt » Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:32 pm

DarkLord wrote:Awesome news! :cheers:

Geez, Doug - do you do "normal" things, like eat, sleep and work? Can't see how
you find the time for those less important activities. :lol:


LOL ace!! Nice one. But you're right and it is AWESOME news mate!! :cheers: Doug!!

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby dml » Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:33 pm

DarkLord wrote:Geez, Doug - do you do "normal" things, like eat, sleep and work? Can't see how
you find the time for those less important activities. :lol:


Sometimes the experiments have to take a bite out of the 'sleep' department, but that doesn't always work out well!

Work has severely limited what I can do recently - but some new things are on the way. A few already working but untidy, others in early stages. I might post on one of those here soon - depends on how I decide to release it (i.e. in an actual demo, or just as another tech blog).

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby EstTeeEfEm » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:50 pm

Well, I must say... as a STOS programmer, and a STEEM user, having the ability to import TGA and convert to SPU 512/4096 is a blessing...
Esp with the use of XNView ...

Awesome stuff! Kudos to you!

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby dml » Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:46 pm

Cheers!

I have updated my site with the latest version. This includes the new manual with examples & pictures. There are a few samples on the website showing recent results (preview PNGs) in different modes, mostly on STE.

http://www.leonik.net/dml/sec_pcs.py

There are still some extras to follow and a few bugfixes but it's quite usable as-is.


(note: the Apex pages have been updated too - more to follow)

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby CiH » Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:14 pm

Dammit Doug, you sneak in your most interesting posts when it's strictly past my bedtime!

I note that like Photochrome v5, this is intended to provide an arsenal of techniques for converting and generating images but not for then viewing the end result on Atari hardware.

For those of us not currently writing a custom image displayer for enhanced images, is there a new PCS viewer for Atari hardware in the works. Or else, is the 'old' PCS viewer with v4 flexible enough to cope with these new images?
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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby dml » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:20 am

Hi,

CiH wrote:I note that like Photochrome v5, this is intended to provide an arsenal of techniques for converting and generating images but not for then viewing the end result on Atari hardware.
For those of us not currently writing a custom image displayer for enhanced images, is there a new PCS viewer for Atari hardware in the works. Or else, is the 'old' PCS viewer with v4 flexible enough to cope with these new images?


You're right of course - it's just the convertor for now. A viewer and some source will follow though for higher colour density images.

It will continue to spit out v3/v4 compatible images by default so the old viewers should still work with v5,v6...

(basically, I'm still busy on some other thing but wanted to get some things released with decent instructions meantime! ;) There are a few bits and bobs still to follow though for sure...)

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby dml » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:29 pm

Early version of the v6.2 viewer here, with some examples - both tri-field and quad-field, with different interlacing and conversion variations. The files are not compressed. You'll need a 1MB+ STE to view.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/129 ... viewer.zip

Since this new STE mode has only just become a 'format', it requires PCS v6.2.1 to generate files compatible with the new viewer. I'll upload that to the site tomorrow night.

This viewer only views the new mode #1 images. It won't load the old PCS mode #0 images. You'll need to use the old viewers for those. This will get dealt with another time. (As will MSTE support! plain STEs for now)

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Re: PhotoChrome v6

Postby CiH » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:22 pm

Early version of the v6.2 viewer here, with some examples - both tri-field and quad-field, with different interlacing and conversion variations. The files are not compressed. You'll need a 1MB+ STE to view.

Works a treat on Hatari. :D

Since this new STE mode has only just become a 'format', it requires PCS v6.2.1 to generate files compatible with the new viewer. I'll upload that to the site tomorrow night.

A viewer that is ahead of the current PCS maker, like your style! Also it is nice and quick.

(As will MSTE support! plain STEs for now)

I guess this is down to TOS detection, as 'computer said no' very politely on my normal emulation of TOS 2.06 / STE. I had to load a TOS 1.62 ROM image in its place to run the viewer.
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