Several hardware questions

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Several hardware questions

Postby Soluzar » Thu Feb 27, 2003 6:27 pm

The subject header says it all really...
I dragged my ST out of the loft a while ago, and while the machine itself is fine, for some reason there's no joystick with it! :cry: :cry:

Is there anywhere you can buy joysticks compatible with the ST these days? I know I could just try ebay, but I really don't like that site! :evil:

Also, is there anywhere I can still get hard drives for the ST? This one I don't expect to have much luck with though.

Last thing. Does anyone know if you get better results when making real ST disks from images if your PC has a genuine Low-Density drive mechanism?

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Postby Batman » Fri Feb 28, 2003 12:12 am

I must recommed CX24 - Deluxe Joystick, you can buy it from http://www.1632-sales.zenwebhosting.com/acatalog/ it is the only Joystick I ever used. It is great! :)

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Postby Gunstar » Fri Feb 28, 2003 1:10 am

I went into system setup on my PC and selected 720k mode there for my HD PC floppy, it works better than in 1.44k mode, although it probably would be even better with a real 720k mecahnism. Wish I had one. I get about a 50/50 rate with images-to-real-ST discs working at all, and about a 50/50 rate with what games on the menus of those discs actually load and work, or, about 25% of all the games I get off of images actually work right. Although, right now I am using VERY old DSDD disks, that have been over used/formatted and are just plain old, and also using 1.44meg disks with tabs over the write-protect holes so the drives think they are standard 720k density disks, which also isn't the most reliable, but it does work about half the time. I'm waiting on a shipment of new 720k disks from B&C, and hopefully my success rate will dramatically increase with these disks. Although, both my ST drive and PC drive have also seen better days, so replacement of them is in order in the near future also. :?
And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides,
when the right hand falters and the left hand strays,
that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight and all that is,
all that was, and all that will be shall balance on the point of a sword,
while the winds of the Shadow grow.-From 'The Prophecies of the Dragon'
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Postby Soluzar » Fri Feb 28, 2003 2:04 am

I'm quite intrigued by what you say Gunstar. While I have approx a 50/50 success rate with making disks, if the disk-making process goes well, with no errors, the disk works 100%. I'd guess that yeah, you might want to do something about the STs drive. Have you tried a head-cleaning kit? I've heard it said that they work wonders...
Also on the image-to-disk topic, what software do you use? I've tried MakeDisk, but find that I get as good, if not better results, by using a new utility called WFDCopy. It's miniscule, so I'll be happy to post it if you want. Also, use a separate, verifying, formatting utility. I use F-Mat, it's a dos (does work in Win 9x) util, can do any disk geometry that you can specify. It's also tiny, so I'll post that if you need it. Let me know.
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Postby Soluzar » Fri Feb 28, 2003 2:19 am

Batman: the CX24 Joystick on 16/32 systems says it's for Atari 2600/7800/XL consoles. It doesn't mention that they work for Atari ST.
I'll take your word if you're sure, but ten quid is ten quid if it's not the right one, :oops: :cry: so can you just confirm for me?

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Postby Silver Surfer » Fri Feb 28, 2003 2:32 am

About hard drive look at this one: http://www.tradera.com/auction/auction.asp?aid=1772035

It is all in swedish but about £10 for a harddrive is not bad, it says that he ship internationally, has an english manual, not tested but seem to be in good condition. Email the seller it might be worth it! There doesn't seem to be a bidder for it yet.

about that the CX24 Joystick, I am almost 100% certain that it works fine for the ST, email Nick Harlow of 16/32 he will most likely know for certain.

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Postby Soluzar » Fri Feb 28, 2003 2:53 am

Thanks for the heads up, Surfer, but a couple of points put me off.

A) I'm not entirely sure what bankgiro/postalgiro means, but I'd guess it means cheque or postal order, and I dunno if I could get one that the seller would accept.

b) If I have to pay shipping, it could end up being more than the cost of the drive. :lol:

c) I'm worried about what the long journey might do to it... I see your location is sweden, perhaps you're unaware of the British postal service's reputation for repeatedly dropping any fragile parcel from a great height! :lol:

Thanks for the suggestion though. I appreciate it.
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Postby Gunstar » Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:49 am

Soluzar wrote:I'm quite intrigued by what you say Gunstar. While I have approx a 50/50 success rate with making disks, if the disk-making process goes well, with no errors, the disk works 100%. I'd guess that yeah, you might want to do something about the STs drive. Have you tried a head-cleaning kit? I've heard it said that they work wonders...
Also on the image-to-disk topic, what software do you use? I've tried MakeDisk, but find that I get as good, if not better results, by using a new utility called WFDCopy. It's miniscule, so I'll be happy to post it if you want. Also, use a separate, verifying, formatting utility. I use F-Mat, it's a dos (does work in Win 9x) util, can do any disk geometry that you can specify. It's also tiny, so I'll post that if you need it. Let me know.


As far as cleaning the drive, I've done that and it's CLEAN. It was broken when I got it, but I repaired it. I think it's more likely my PC drive as I have problems with it loading ANYHING, the only thing it does work with is making ST disks out of images. yes, I do use Makedisk, and if you have something better, post it! I think my troubles are definately a combination of all four things; bad PC drive, bad disks, not-so-great images to start with (some crackers aren't as good at "cracking" as they think they are) and Makedisk not being the best utility. I've already come across problems with makedisk and trying to write 81 track, 11 sector disks, it WON'T! Luckily, very few of those images exist. I am planning on getting a replacement SF314 drive for my ST anyway, I'm buying an external one, and putting the drive itself in my 1040ST, then replacing my old drive into the drive case to use as a second drive. Just in case, but I haven't yet used any ORIGINAL software on my ST, so I'm not willing to blame the drive for not liking cracks. Also, evrything I format and save on the drive (word processing, etc.) in ST format works perfectly fine all the time. Although I don't think it's a problem with PC formatted disks...by the way, I format ALL my disks on the ST, both ST and PC format, since my PC drive is so flakey. I use both the PS/2 formatter in Mdisk (a ramdisk/formatter ACC.) and Fast copy 3.
And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides,
when the right hand falters and the left hand strays,
that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight and all that is,
all that was, and all that will be shall balance on the point of a sword,
while the winds of the Shadow grow.-From 'The Prophecies of the Dragon'
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Postby Soluzar » Fri Feb 28, 2003 4:18 am

Hmm, well, you have a point about the bad disks, disks are well flakey past a year or two old IMHO.
With the images though, I'd have to doubt that they're causing your problems, since if they work in an emulator and you get them written to disk without errors they are bound to work on an st. Having just re-read your post though, the 11 sectored ones are always going to be difficult. I recall Was (Not Was) critisising 11 sector formats in an early scroller. He's right, they are just too unstable.
As to formatting using fcopy. I don't recall that fcopy verifies each sector as it writes it, when formatting, so I'd use fmat, from dos, when you've changed your drive. It can tell you straight off if your media is dodgy, which is always good to know. it's attatched.
As to makedisk, its a fine program, and I'm not disrespecting Darren's work in any way, but I do prefer the fact that WFDCopy uses a windows interface. That's attached also.
Two things to bear in mind. 1) WFDCopy is very early version, so it's not been much tested. That said, I found it to work every time I gave it clean media. 2) I believe that Darren has said he'll update MakeDisk to the Win32 API as soon as he has the time, so at that point MakeDisk may be the better choice.
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Postby Gunstar » Fri Feb 28, 2003 8:31 pm

Soluzar wrote:Batman: the CX24 Joystick on 16/32 systems says it's for Atari 2600/7800/XL consoles. It doesn't mention that they work for Atari ST.
I'll take your word if you're sure, but ten quid is ten quid if it's not the right one, :oops: :cry: so can you just confirm for me?

Soluzar


IF, if these "CX24" joysticks are the TWO button, "proline" controller sytled sticks like the 7800 uses, they will DEFINATELY NOT work with an ST. The St can't understand the way the two buttons are mapped and the WHOLE COMPUTER will lock up and crash. I know this for absolutely, 120% certain, because I OWN several of thes sticks and know it from experience! it is also well documented. IF these are not the "7800 Proline" controllers, then never mind.
And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides,
when the right hand falters and the left hand strays,
that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight and all that is,
all that was, and all that will be shall balance on the point of a sword,
while the winds of the Shadow grow.-From 'The Prophecies of the Dragon'
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Postby Silver Surfer » Fri Feb 28, 2003 9:30 pm

Hi Tropper. hmm didn't think about that but it feels like "Driven är ej testad." is refering to the drive. Dunno man, maybe you are right.

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Postby Soluzar » Fri Feb 28, 2003 9:37 pm

Gunstar: Thanx for the warning, but the guy at 16/32 shop says def. yes for ST, so I'll take his word for it for now. What does bother me is the style of the grip. Looks like you have to hold it in one hand, and manipulate the stick with the other. I prefer to pop my stick down on a surface for use. The best ones I can recall were called The Zipstick.
8)
Trooper: Yeah, I've been doing my research, and you're spot on, the Megafile 44 is a removable cartridge system. It's more-or-less a direct ancestor to Jazz, but the cartridges were made by Syquest. Originally, they would have come with one cartridge, but who knows if that's still with it. On the plus side, I understand you can still get 'em direct from Syquest, but they're about $90 each.
Talking of hard drives, when I was in school, the school's computer lab had these ancient harddrives, that looked like upright washing machines. They were about the size of a modern washing machine, and each one held about 10 Megs. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Aren't you glad we've moved past that stage...? Imagine putting one of them in your bedroom. 8O
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Postby Batman » Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:05 pm

Soluzar wrote:Gunstar: Thanx for the warning, but the guy at 16/32 shop says def. yes for ST, so I'll take his word for it for now. What does bother me is the style of the grip. Looks like you have to hold it in one hand, and manipulate the stick with the other. I prefer to pop my stick down on a surface for use. The best ones I can recall were called The Zipstick.
8)


Thanks Soluzar! Gunstar made me really confused, I was really starting to doubt my memory. During my XL/XE days I bought 4 or 5 of these on a thrift and when I converted to the ST, it worked just fine.

In my opinion this joystick is perfect when you are gaming from the bed. :wink: The joystick fits perfectly in your left hand and most importantly...it is an Atari joystick :)
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Postby Soluzar » Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:27 pm

Well, fingers crossed, that should be my joystick problems over, and 16/32 sell brand new DSDD floppies, so that's cool. 8) Just need to find a hard drive and I'll be fully set up. Well, a forget-me-clock would be nice too, actually... :D
If anyone knows where I can get an affordable hard drive from... please let me know. I have thought about using ISDs "The Link" to add an off-the-shelf SCSI unit, but they cost a fortune. :(
Oh, on a slightly different note, does anyone want a Star dot-matrix printer, or an Atari Hi-Res Monitor? They both were with my Atari kit in the loft, and I'd like to find a good home for them, since I can use my PCs equivalents with the ST for hi-res gfx and printing.

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Last edited by Soluzar on Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Maverick[RAM] » Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:55 pm

Soluzar wrote:Hmm, well, you have a point about the bad disks, disks are well flakey past a year or two old IMHO.
With the images though, I'd have to doubt that they're causing your problems, since if they work in an emulator and you get them written to disk without errors they are bound to work on an st. Having just re-read your post though, the 11 sectored ones are always going to be difficult. I recall Was (Not Was) critisising 11 sector formats in an early scroller. He's right, they are just too unstable.
As to formatting using fcopy. I don't recall that fcopy verifies each sector as it writes it, when formatting, so I'd use fmat, from dos, when you've changed your drive. It can tell you straight off if your media is dodgy, which is always good to know. it's attatched.
As to makedisk, its a fine program, and I'm not disrespecting Darren's work in any way, but I do prefer the fact that WFDCopy uses a windows interface. That's attached also.
Two things to bear in mind. 1) WFDCopy is very early version, so it's not been much tested. That said, I found it to work every time I gave it clean media. 2) I believe that Darren has said he'll update MakeDisk to the Win32 API as soon as he has the time, so at that point MakeDisk may be the better choice.


Yo guys, please also remember the issues about correct TOS version
It can make a whole lot of a difference

Just a minor reminder

Because I guess you all know that a faulty disk is not neccesserily wrong
it can be an issue of tos version. Bear also in mind that our "real ST" does only have one version and cannot change, unless multi tos or other stuff. But as long as you dabble with multi tos or other programs such alike their is really not the same as the correct version in the first place ( of tos i mean). Anyhow regarding this and have this in mind does really comply to the era of which the games were created.

And remeber that many games were packed by different packers!

For instace Jampacker, ver 3.0 banged hugely on the STe, but not on the regular atari ST. But when the new version v4.0 came out it worked fine. Later on there was good packers but unfortnately they were not compatible backwards, so I myself was stuck with some packers due to an old ST and Tos v1.0. But as allways back then, I just waited for a new version which also supported the previous versions of TOS.

I don't mean to offend you dudes.

Take care! :D
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Postby Ayreon » Sat Mar 01, 2003 12:38 am

hmm.. ICD made interfaces for the ST so you can connect a normal scsi drive. http://www.icd.com/index/products.htm
Maybe they still have them. I wouldn't know the max size of a HDD for the ST so better check that out before you buy an 80 gig HDD ;)
So there's no need for a real ATARI megafile or something. There were also harddrives on the market called megadrive. They had to change name after sega launched their megadrive. Don't know what they called it after sega was lame enough to threat them with a lawsuit.
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Postby Soluzar » Sat Mar 01, 2003 2:05 pm

Yeah, I had seen those, looks like they might be the way, I'll end up going. I was trying to avoid it, since they seem to be shipping from america... As far as I could tell from their webpage, they do have them, but I resent paying that price for a bit of kit for a 10 year old computer. I was hoping to find a second hand drive for less than just 'the link' costs... :lol:

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Postby Ayreon » Sat Mar 01, 2003 2:17 pm

erh well #^#@$%!! ICD their webpage hasn't been updated for ages. I asked them about Aircars for the Jaguar. Their webpage says they have 30 in stock, but they're sold out since 2000. So i guess their other products may out of stock too.

oh well.. at least you got some extra things to look for on the 2nd hand market. I'll keep my eyes open and if i find something simular i'll let you know.
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Postby Soluzar » Sat Mar 01, 2003 2:47 pm

Much appreciated! There is a bloke somewhere who sells IDE interfaces for the ST, only problem is you have to install it internally, and after 10 years, I'm not about to perform surgery on my beloved STe. :D
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Postby Gunstar » Mon Mar 03, 2003 2:22 am

Batman wrote:
Soluzar wrote:Gunstar: Thanx for the warning, but the guy at 16/32 shop says def. yes for ST, so I'll take his word for it for now. What does bother me is the style of the grip. Looks like you have to hold it in one hand, and manipulate the stick with the other. I prefer to pop my stick down on a surface for use. The best ones I can recall were called The Zipstick.
8)


Thanks Soluzar! Gunstar made me really confused, I was really starting to doubt my memory. During my XL/XE days I bought 4 or 5 of these on a thrift and when I converted to the ST, it worked just fine.

In my opinion this joystick is perfect when you are gaming from the bed. :wink: The joystick fits perfectly in your left hand and most importantly...it is an Atari joystick :)


It must not be a 7800 stick then...I tried finding it on the site, but no luck. Anyway I know DEFINATELY, I'll stake my LIFE on it, I own three and have tried them, they WILL NOT WORK ON AN ST. So avoid buying one for an ST (7800 controller).
And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides,
when the right hand falters and the left hand strays,
that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight and all that is,
all that was, and all that will be shall balance on the point of a sword,
while the winds of the Shadow grow.-From 'The Prophecies of the Dragon'
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Postby Gunstar » Tue Mar 04, 2003 3:38 am

Batman wrote:
Soluzar wrote:Gunstar: Thanx for the warning, but the guy at 16/32 shop says def. yes for ST, so I'll take his word for it for now. What does bother me is the style of the grip. Looks like you have to hold it in one hand, and manipulate the stick with the other. I prefer to pop my stick down on a surface for use. The best ones I can recall were called The Zipstick.
8)


Thanks Soluzar! Gunstar made me really confused, I was really starting to doubt my memory. During my XL/XE days I bought 4 or 5 of these on a thrift and when I converted to the ST, it worked just fine.

In my opinion this joystick is perfect when you are gaming from the bed. :wink: The joystick fits perfectly in your left hand and most importantly...it is an Atari joystick :)


I have a question for you Batman; what model of ST do you have? That may make a difference if these controllers are 7800 pro-lines, I have a standard 1040ST. 7800 sticks won't work on it, and I was told by several people on AtariAge that it's well known that 7800 controllers don't work on ST's and tha it's well documented, although I took their word for the "well documented and haven't looked myself, but I do know from trying, that what they said is true, the 7800 controllers won't work on my ST, it locks up or just won't control properly or the buttons don't work (depending on the game, one of the previous occurs). I'll see if I can find the documentation on this, but I'm still not positive that these "cx24" Deluxe are what I'm thinking of, but they sure sound like it from your description.
And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides,
when the right hand falters and the left hand strays,
that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight and all that is,
all that was, and all that will be shall balance on the point of a sword,
while the winds of the Shadow grow.-From 'The Prophecies of the Dragon'
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Postby Gunstar » Tue Mar 04, 2003 3:45 am

OK, I found the "documented" proof I was looking for, since you guys won't take my word for it. The 7800 controller are INDEED the CX24 "deluxe joysticks", Best Electronics has them on their site and I quote "these will work with all atari systems EXCEPT for the 5200, ST COMPUTERS and the Jaguar" here's the direct link: http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/cx24.htm

Those are the same controllers I have that won't work on my ST, so I'd sure like to know how you got them to work on yours. Assuming you have a standard ST, maybe STE's Mega's or TT's are different.
And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides,
when the right hand falters and the left hand strays,
that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight and all that is,
all that was, and all that will be shall balance on the point of a sword,
while the winds of the Shadow grow.-From 'The Prophecies of the Dragon'
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Postby Batman » Tue Mar 04, 2003 5:10 pm

I have a 520stm, you know the one with a separate diskdrive, it is I guess an of the earlier models of 520. I think it has a swedish Tos but I am not sure about that cause it has been a few years since I started it up the last time.

I am 100% sure that the joystick look like that and that it works with my computer. But there could be other models of the joystick I guess because I am not sure that it is a CX24 but it looks just like the one on the box on bestelectronics site and has 2 buttons of course.

Gunstar, do you know if Atari made any other versions of that joystick design?

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Postby Gunstar » Tue Mar 04, 2003 7:10 pm

Batman wrote:I have a 520stm, you know the one with a separate diskdrive, it is I guess an of the earlier models of 520. I think it has a swedish Tos but I am not sure about that cause it has been a few years since I started it up the last time.

I am 100% sure that the joystick look like that and that it works with my computer. But there could be other models of the joystick I guess because I am not sure that it is a CX24 but it looks just like the one on the box on bestelectronics site and has 2 buttons of course.

Gunstar, do you know if Atari made any other versions of that joystick design?

Batster

Well, they made the Jaguar PADS (like NES) that are two buttons and ALSO don't work on ST's. But BEST ELECTRONICS themselves sells or sold their own versions that look almost the same, except no atari logo, all black. One is rapic fire "deluxe" version and also doens't work on an ST, it's 7800 compatible and the other, without the rapid fire has two buttons, but they both work like standard 2600 CX40 joystick buttons, are not compatible with two button 7800 games (though they will work on the 7800 with 2600 games and 7800 games that use one button), these are compatible with the ST-is this what you have? I'll post a picture of the BEST E. versions later (got to take a picture of it first).
And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides,
when the right hand falters and the left hand strays,
that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight and all that is,
all that was, and all that will be shall balance on the point of a sword,
while the winds of the Shadow grow.-From 'The Prophecies of the Dragon'
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Postby Ayreon » Tue Mar 04, 2003 8:15 pm

if my memory serves me right only the functions of the fire buttons were different on 7800 pads/joysticks. So with a little rewire-ing it can be made ST compatible
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