TOS 1.62 US

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ijor
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TOS 1.62 US

Postby ijor » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:08 pm

I Need a dump of the original TOS 1.62 US *and* TOS 1.62 uk.

Found a serious bug in the version that is available on the net. So I want to make sure that TOS version is actually the original one.

The bug is present in both US and UK versions. But strangley, Devpac crashes with TOS 1.62 uk under Steem. So the TOS version is easier for testing.

The fact that Devpac crashes with the Uk version, but not with the US one, makes me be even more suspicious about those TOS dumps.

Please make sure you have original ROMs before making the dump. If you don't know how to make a TOS dump, an utlity is available here:

http://homepage.mac.com/carlhafner/Atar ... mimage.zip

Thanks

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karlm
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Postby karlm » Fri May 13, 2005 12:19 am

did you get 'em ijor? I can go home an do TOS 1.62UK at lunchtime if you want.

cheers,

karlm.

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Postby ijor » Fri May 13, 2005 5:30 am

Didn't receive it. Will be great if you can make an image. But please make sure you have original ROMs.

Thanks

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karlm
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Postby karlm » Fri May 13, 2005 6:32 am

hope they are! It's a stock (erm 4mb anyway) 1040STe!

cheers,
karlm.

(will be Monday now though ... sorry!)

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Postby bripilot » Fri May 13, 2005 1:11 pm

I'm quite busy this weekend, but I should be able to get you a Tos162US dump. Again, using a stock US model 1040STe.

I'll post it on my website and give you the URL, but it will be tomorrow at the soonest before I can do it.

Let me know if you can wait that long... =)
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Postby bripilot » Sat May 14, 2005 4:26 pm

Ok... just ripped it...

Here's the URL: http://sendire.mine.nu/ijor/TOS162US.img

Let me know if you have problems getting it to work.
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STs: 1040STfm, Falcon 030 w/ 14MB, 10GB internal HD and BlowUp graphics adapter
8bits: 800XL w/ 32-in-1 OS and Supervideo 2.1 Upgrade, Happy 1050, APE (Registered), Commodore 1702 Monitor and PC storage unit

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Postby ijor » Sun May 15, 2005 3:01 pm

Thanks bripilot. It is the identical to the version available in the net. Still would like to get the Uk version when you can, Karlm.

After some investigation, the same bug seems to be present in all pre 2.x TOS versions. But the bug have no actual consequence on 1.0 or 1.2, only 1.4 and above (specially 1.62) are seriously affected.

Strange that the bug was never mentioned before. Somebody knows if exist some kind of release notes/addendum for TOS 2.X (as there are for TOS 1.4 and STe TOS)? Should be mentioned there as one of the fixed bugs.

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karlm
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Postby karlm » Tue May 17, 2005 10:15 am

okeydoke.

hope attatchments work

woot woot! they do!

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Postby bripilot » Tue May 17, 2005 6:09 pm

Just wondering... what bug is it?
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STs: 1040STfm, Falcon 030 w/ 14MB, 10GB internal HD and BlowUp graphics adapter
8bits: 800XL w/ 32-in-1 OS and Supervideo 2.1 Upgrade, Happy 1050, APE (Registered), Commodore 1702 Monitor and PC storage unit

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Postby ijor » Tue May 17, 2005 6:42 pm

karlm wrote:okeydoke.


Thanks a lot Karlm. It is different than the version I was using. Look that mine was corrupted. Now I have to check where I got it, just in case the corrupted version is at one of the main TOS sites.

Somebody has to make a database for official TOS roms including some kind of hash values (MD5 or better)!

bripilot wrote:Just wondering... what bug is it?


Btw, the bug has nothing to do with the corrupted image mentioned above. As said it's present in all pre 2.X versions.

The bug is that it will not detect a media change in one particular case. Specifically, it won't detect when you change the disk ... with the same disk. Oh, you ask, why I could care if I reinserted the same floppy. Well, you should care because the disk might have been modified in other computer.

Do the following test:

Format a disk. Create a small text file in the root directory with a short content, say "not modified". Read the text file. Now take the disk to the PC, open Notepad and modify the text for "yes modified". Reinsert the disk on the ST and reread the file. It will show "not modified" :)

You must use TOS 1.62, and possibly TOS 1.4. TOS 1.0 or 1.2 are not affected. They still have the bug, but they have no floppy cache so they will reread the files sectors anyway.

I'm not sure if you will see the bug if showing the file with the Desktop. I tried reading the file with my own software. The Desktop might possible read other data from the disk and then flushing the "old" cached sectors.

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Postby Greenious » Mon May 22, 2006 11:20 am

ijor wrote:Btw, the bug has nothing to do with the corrupted image mentioned above. As said it's present in all pre 2.X versions.

The bug is that it will not detect a media change in one particular case. Specifically, it won't detect when you change the disk ... with the same disk. Oh, you ask, why I could care if I reinserted the same floppy. Well, you should care because the disk might have been modified in other computer.

Do the following test:

Format a disk. Create a small text file in the root directory with a short content, say "not modified". Read the text file. Now take the disk to the PC, open Notepad and modify the text for "yes modified". Reinsert the disk on the ST and reread the file. It will show "not modified" :)

You must use TOS 1.62, and possibly TOS 1.4. TOS 1.0 or 1.2 are not affected. They still have the bug, but they have no floppy cache so they will reread the files sectors anyway.

I'm not sure if you will see the bug if showing the file with the Desktop. I tried reading the file with my own software. The Desktop might possible read other data from the disk and then flushing the "old" cached sectors.


Actually, that is not a bug, it is a limitation in hardware that cause that, and it affects all versions of TOS.

The only way for Atari to determine if the disk has changed is to read the random serialnumber in the bootsector. If the serialnumber is the same, it assumes the disk has not changed.

It also causes problems with some formatters, that doesn't properly generate the serialnumber.

You can use "esc" to force a diskchange in desktop.
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bripilot
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Postby bripilot » Mon May 22, 2006 1:17 pm

Wow Green... way to resurrect a year old topic... =) (Just giving you hassle... :wink: )
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STs: 1040STfm, Falcon 030 w/ 14MB, 10GB internal HD and BlowUp graphics adapter
8bits: 800XL w/ 32-in-1 OS and Supervideo 2.1 Upgrade, Happy 1050, APE (Registered), Commodore 1702 Monitor and PC storage unit

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Postby ijor » Mon May 22, 2006 3:12 pm

Greenious wrote:
ijor wrote:Btw, the bug has nothing to do with the corrupted image mentioned above. As said it's present in all pre 2.X versions.The bug is that it will not detect a media change in one particular case.


Actually, that is not a bug, it is a limitation in hardware that cause that, and it affects all versions of TOS.


No, it is a bug. Try with TOS 2.X and you will see the difference.

The only way for Atari to determine if the disk has changed is to read the random serialnumber in the bootsector. If the serial number is the same, it assumes the disk has not changed.


This is not accurate. The ST can detect if the disk was changed (and it indeed does). The bug is when trying to determine if the changed disk is the same disk or a different one. This would be exactly the same on the PC that has hardware support for media change.

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Postby Greenious » Tue May 23, 2006 11:25 am

ijor wrote:
Actually, that is not a bug, it is a limitation in hardware that cause that, and it affects all versions of TOS.

No, it is a bug. Try with TOS 2.X and you will see the difference.


The limit is in the hardware. On other platforms pin 34 of the floppy interface is used to determine when a disk is inserted or not. That pin is not connected on Atari.

The only way for Atari to determine if the disk has changed is to read the random serialnumber in the bootsector. If the serial number is the same, it assumes the disk has not changed.

This is not accurate. The ST can detect if the disk was changed (and it indeed does). The bug is when trying to determine if the changed disk is the same disk or a different one. This would be exactly the same on the PC that has hardware support for media change.


Well, I can not say with with 100% certainty, but I believe Atari finally resolved this matter by always assuming the disk had changed. Like many "fixes" for this in earlier TOS that were released did.
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Postby Greenious » Tue May 23, 2006 11:28 am

bripilot wrote:Wow Green... way to resurrect a year old topic... =) (Just giving you hassle... :wink: )


Hehe, well, I was looking for the above TOS dumps, and found the thread, and gave my input. :lol:

Never thought about how old the thread was. :oops:
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Postby ijor » Tue May 23, 2006 4:38 pm

Greenious wrote:The limit is in the hardware. On other platforms pin 34 of the floppy interface is used to determine when a disk is inserted or not. That pin is not connected on Atari.


We all know about the “DISK CHANGE” signal in pin 34. Still, the ST is able to detect by hardware (well, sort of) if the disk was removed or not. Do the following test:

Use TOS 1.0 or 1.02, won’t work with newer ones. Insert a standard disk, make sure it is write enabled (the test will fail if it is write protected). Open a window on the desktop for the directory of that drive. Now try clicking “ESC”. The window is refreshed, but the disk is NOT accessed.

As you can see, ESC didn’t force a media change, because the ST knows the disk wasn’t actually changed. If you now remove and reinsert the disk (or a different one, doesn’t matter) and hit ESC, the disk will be accessed. So the ST detected that the disk was removed.

How it does it without real hardware support? A simple trick. Periodically, every few Vertical Blank interrupts, TOS monitors the drive write protect signal. When you change a disk, you necessarily provoke toggles in the write protect signal. If TOS doesn’t see any toggle, it knows the disk wasn’t removed. This is of course not as good as real hardware support, it has some problems but it works pretty well.

Well, I can not say with with 100% certainty, but I believe Atari finally resolved this matter by always assuming the disk had changed.


Indeed. So it was a bug. Because it is wrong to assume, just checking the serial number in the boot sector, that the disk wasn’t changed. And this is not only because potentially you can have two different disks with the same serial number. Even if it is the same disk, you cannot be certain the disk wasn’t modified somewhere else (which could happen if you were transferring files from one computer to the other).

And this has nothing to do with having hardware media change detection or not. It is definitely a software bug. Exactly the same situation would happen in the PC. The hardware media change will tell you when the disk was removed, it won’t (obviously) tell if you reinserted the same or a different disk.


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