Falcon Troubles

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KLund1
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Falcon Troubles

Postby KLund1 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:00 am

I got a stock Falcon that dose nothing on power up. I would like some help troubleshooting.
I have found the the original PSU was bad. I swapped it out with a NOS I had on hand from Best.
Now the HD spins up. The fan always spun up.
I have connected it to a SC1224 and a VGA monitor and get no display. The FD is not ever accessed.
The keyboard power LED dose lite.
I disconnected the FD, & HD and had no change.
I used some Deoxit on the reset button. No change.
All I have is a multimeter, and logic probe to test with. (I do have a scope but all I know about how to use it is pressing the power button. I a nube video about how to use it)

Not sure what do next. I have a working Falcon, but am reluctant to swap parts. Maybe the dead one will kill parts from the working bird.
I need to remove the NVram RTC chip. Will a falcon boot without one of these installed?
Thoughts, suggestions?
Thanks
UPDATED: Falcon 030(FX-1)(CF int & removable SD), MSTE 4+PS3000 4160STE 2.06+HDFD STacy4-internal-USD 1040STFM+I.B.Driver-5.25"FDD 1040STF 1040ST 520ST-AdSpeed 400-48k 800+810x2+820+822+825+830+835+850, 800XL+IndusGT 600XL 130XE+XF551x2 Portfolio 1200XL APE(Warp+32in1 OS SuperVideo 2.1 256k RAMBO)+1050x2 USD'd+SIO2PC, PC1+PCH204+PCM124+PCF554x2

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby sety » Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:09 am

Don't be scared of your scope. I know some models can look a bit intimidating but they're actually really easy to use. If you post a photo of it I'll guide you through it. :)

KLund1 wrote:I need to remove the NVram RTC chip. Will a falcon boot without one of these installed?
Thanks


Only if you have TOS 4.04

Cheers,
Stuart
ATARI FALCON/CT60 @99/25Mhz 512MB - ATARI FALCON/CT60e @101.5/16Mhz 256MB - 520STF 1MB TF68020 - 520ST unmodified (my very first computer) - A couple of useless XE's - and a really cool Atari desktop calculator :)

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby KLund1 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:54 am

Sety Thanks,
I have reseated all the socketed PPLL's, dip's, and 4mb ram board. No change. This thing has TOS 4.01 (upgrade needed, need to make an exxos order)

Here is a pic of my old scope I got a estate sale last week. I did not appear to be used much if at all. Think I got all the cables that go with it. It is only a 25Mhz so might not do video, but should be ok for most of the Falcon board.

Looking closely at the board, it looks like new. The fan is quite dirty so there might be some miles put on this unit. It dose have the wrong screws for the FD and a couple RF screws are missing. I think the FD was replaced, but nothing else messed with inside. It is missing the math co-processor (another exxos order item) There no burnt smell noticeable about the board. All the caps look good, but I know that does mean too much.
I Think when the PSU died, this unit went into storage.
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UPDATED: Falcon 030(FX-1)(CF int & removable SD), MSTE 4+PS3000 4160STE 2.06+HDFD STacy4-internal-USD 1040STFM+I.B.Driver-5.25"FDD 1040STF 1040ST 520ST-AdSpeed 400-48k 800+810x2+820+822+825+830+835+850, 800XL+IndusGT 600XL 130XE+XF551x2 Portfolio 1200XL APE(Warp+32in1 OS SuperVideo 2.1 256k RAMBO)+1050x2 USD'd+SIO2PC, PC1+PCH204+PCM124+PCF554x2

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby sety » Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:40 am

Cool! So firstly, you can plug your probe into the left most BNC on the scope and clip the other end of the probe to pin 23 on the Falcon's 50 pin expansion connector (just count 12 pins from the left on the bottom row) this is the CPU clock from combel. If you have an earth clip on your probe you can just clip it to the shielding (or the jag pad ports on the left if you don't have shielding).

Make sure all switches are up and all square buttons are out select the time divisor (far right knob) to 20ns (I think, I'm not at home at the moment) select the far left switch to DC and switch on scope and then the Falcon.

You should get some garbage on the scope screen. You can just play with the volts divider (knob on the left) and the vertical position until it fits neatly on your scope screen, and then adjust the knob marked TRIG LEVEL until you see a clean signal). It will be 8 or 16Mhz depending on the health of your Falcon.

Once you get this far, just try hitting the reset button on the Falcon. With any luck you should witness the clock change to 8Mhz and then back to 16. If this happens, it is a very good sign. :)
Last edited by sety on Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
ATARI FALCON/CT60 @99/25Mhz 512MB - ATARI FALCON/CT60e @101.5/16Mhz 256MB - 520STF 1MB TF68020 - 520ST unmodified (my very first computer) - A couple of useless XE's - and a really cool Atari desktop calculator :)

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby Rustynutt » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:03 am

Scope turns troubleshooting into an understanding, guessing my usual path :)
Among a hundred other things, the clock patch, if present, is something simple to verify with a multimeter.
Next, while reading up on your scope, you could swap out bus GALS with your other Falcon. They do fail on occasion, and you'll see the state it operates at now.

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby sety » Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:31 am

With all due respect, it helps a lot if you don't go reaching for those Lattice chips just yet. If you do, label them with a fine tipped paint pen. U62, U63, U67, U68. It's easy to garble them up in the wrong positions and then you're busy chasing two possible faults and you'll go crazy. :D
ATARI FALCON/CT60 @99/25Mhz 512MB - ATARI FALCON/CT60e @101.5/16Mhz 256MB - 520STF 1MB TF68020 - 520ST unmodified (my very first computer) - A couple of useless XE's - and a really cool Atari desktop calculator :)

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby Rustynutt » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:11 pm

Mention it as it's an easy check/task.
Most are marked quite well, yes , surely don't mix them.
Purchased spares from Wizztronics years ago, and spares to burn after losing one pre-2K. Took a bit to find, 2 failures in near 20 Falcons I've had makes it an early verification check here.

Following the boot sequence with a scope is surely the pro way to go.

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby Bikerbob » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:07 pm

Following.. as per my other thread.. in the same boat!

James

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby KLund1 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:24 pm

Thanks! Very much appropriate the help!!
Pin 12 on the bottom row of the expansion port is hard to get to. At least from the inside. I can get the probe in place from the outside.
I counted from, front to back, 12 pins on the outside.
When I power Falcon up, I was able to 'play' with the controls to find the signal on the scope screen but could not get it to slow down(speedup?) to get a nice continuous curve. Once I got it set to something 'readable', I rebooted the falcon and watched the scope. The wave form changed patterns in timings that seems to coincide with a 'normal' Falcon boot. After about 1 minute, the pattern did not change like it was sitting at the desktop. The falcon only has 4Mb so the memtest goes fast, and the HD & FD & KB are not connected.
I did the same thing with the top connection(pin 12 front to back) of the expansion port and saw the same patterns.
Now I am just guessing at that. I am probably touching the wrong connection, and do not understand what I am seeing. But If I'm on the right track, perhaps there is something wrong with the video circuit, and we should work backwards from there? But remember I did not see any FD access when it was connected, which indicates a boot problem, sooooo hhhuummmm . . . . . . ????
What would be the next test point?
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UPDATED: Falcon 030(FX-1)(CF int & removable SD), MSTE 4+PS3000 4160STE 2.06+HDFD STacy4-internal-USD 1040STFM+I.B.Driver-5.25"FDD 1040STF 1040ST 520ST-AdSpeed 400-48k 800+810x2+820+822+825+830+835+850, 800XL+IndusGT 600XL 130XE+XF551x2 Portfolio 1200XL APE(Warp+32in1 OS SuperVideo 2.1 256k RAMBO)+1050x2 USD'd+SIO2PC, PC1+PCH204+PCM124+PCF554x2

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby derkom » Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:41 pm

KLund1 wrote: Pin 12 on the bottom row of the expansion port is hard to get to.


Expansion port, not cartridge port.

This one...

unnamed.jpg
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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby KLund1 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:13 pm

dddddoooooouuuhhhhhhhh!
Sorry,

Top picture is holding the reset button in, (8mhz?)
Second pic not holding reset button(16Mhz?)
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UPDATED: Falcon 030(FX-1)(CF int & removable SD), MSTE 4+PS3000 4160STE 2.06+HDFD STacy4-internal-USD 1040STFM+I.B.Driver-5.25"FDD 1040STF 1040ST 520ST-AdSpeed 400-48k 800+810x2+820+822+825+830+835+850, 800XL+IndusGT 600XL 130XE+XF551x2 Portfolio 1200XL APE(Warp+32in1 OS SuperVideo 2.1 256k RAMBO)+1050x2 USD'd+SIO2PC, PC1+PCH204+PCM124+PCF554x2

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby derkom » Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:24 pm

KLund1 wrote:dddddoooooouuuhhhhhhhh!
Sorry,

Top picture is holding the reset button in, (8mhz?)
Second pic not holding reset button(16Mhz?)


Looks good. Do you have a diagnostic cartridge? Based on your description of what you saw when you were mistakenly probing the cartridge port, it seems like it's at least doing something. If you counted 12 from the left on the bottom and then top rows of the cartridge port, you were probing A9 and A7, which should indeed show quite a bit of activity at boot and then settle down into something fairly consistent.

I'm sure sety has some more things he would like for you to try, but if it were me, I would boot the diag cartridge with a null modem cable connected to a terminal (9600 8N1) and see what it's producing.

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby KLund1 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:47 pm

Thanks,
I have a blank cart shell and PCB. I only have diag ROMs for ST/Mega, STe, & MSte, No falcon.
I ask here
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=34624
If someone could post the BIN's so I could burn my own. But no offers yet.
I do not have a terminal to connect it too.
If I do not get any VGA/SC1224 output would there be any RF/TV output?
UPDATED: Falcon 030(FX-1)(CF int & removable SD), MSTE 4+PS3000 4160STE 2.06+HDFD STacy4-internal-USD 1040STFM+I.B.Driver-5.25"FDD 1040STF 1040ST 520ST-AdSpeed 400-48k 800+810x2+820+822+825+830+835+850, 800XL+IndusGT 600XL 130XE+XF551x2 Portfolio 1200XL APE(Warp+32in1 OS SuperVideo 2.1 256k RAMBO)+1050x2 USD'd+SIO2PC, PC1+PCH204+PCM124+PCF554x2

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby sety » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:27 am

The Falcon diag needs 512k roms. If you have the oem Atari cartridge (C070208) then you'll need to make some minor modifications such as move vpp and add a little bit of logic to drive ce.

When I find my cartridge I'll send you some close up photos. I'll have a hunt around for those rom bins as well.
ATARI FALCON/CT60 @99/25Mhz 512MB - ATARI FALCON/CT60e @101.5/16Mhz 256MB - 520STF 1MB TF68020 - 520ST unmodified (my very first computer) - A couple of useless XE's - and a really cool Atari desktop calculator :)

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby sety » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:56 am

For some reason the server is not letting me upload photos right now, but I found another thread that goes into a bit more detail and also has the rom files.

http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=19389
ATARI FALCON/CT60 @99/25Mhz 512MB - ATARI FALCON/CT60e @101.5/16Mhz 256MB - 520STF 1MB TF68020 - 520ST unmodified (my very first computer) - A couple of useless XE's - and a really cool Atari desktop calculator :)

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby KLund1 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:07 am

I probably have a set of 256K eproms around somewhere.
UPDATED: Falcon 030(FX-1)(CF int & removable SD), MSTE 4+PS3000 4160STE 2.06+HDFD STacy4-internal-USD 1040STFM+I.B.Driver-5.25"FDD 1040STF 1040ST 520ST-AdSpeed 400-48k 800+810x2+820+822+825+830+835+850, 800XL+IndusGT 600XL 130XE+XF551x2 Portfolio 1200XL APE(Warp+32in1 OS SuperVideo 2.1 256k RAMBO)+1050x2 USD'd+SIO2PC, PC1+PCH204+PCM124+PCF554x2

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby sety » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:10 am

Rustynutt wrote:Most are marked quite well, yes , surely don't mix them.


I only mention it because I was silly enough to mix them up the other day and it took me ages to realise what I'd done wrong. Ended up having to flash new ones 'cos I couldn't work out which was which :lol:
ATARI FALCON/CT60 @99/25Mhz 512MB - ATARI FALCON/CT60e @101.5/16Mhz 256MB - 520STF 1MB TF68020 - 520ST unmodified (my very first computer) - A couple of useless XE's - and a really cool Atari desktop calculator :)

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby derkom » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:33 am

KLund1 wrote:Thanks,
I have a blank cart shell and PCB. I only have diag ROMs for ST/Mega, STe, & MSte, No falcon.


Consider picking up one of the muti-image diag carts from exxos. Very very handy to have that around. You can select which diag software you want (or YARTT or GEMBENCH) via jumpers and just plug it in.

Getting the right ROMs for your PCB will work of course, but having it all in one cartridge is really handy.

I do not have a terminal to connect it too.


You have a working Falcon. That can be your terminal. Just run some terminal emulation software on it and set it to 9600 8N1 and connect a null modem cable between the broken Falcon's serial port and the working one.

If you don't have a null modem cable (note that this is not the same a regular serial cable), you can easily find them on eBay or AliExpress or any well stocked local computer cables supplier (I say "well stocked" because null modem cables are less common these days than they used to be, but definitely not hard to find). They are quite cheap if you are willing to wait for shipment from China. Local purchase will likely be a bit more expensive, but supports your local suppliers and gives you instant satisfaction. :)

A tip if you are buying a new one: With a little bit more hunting and a little bit higher price, you can get null modem cables that have both DB9 and DB25 plugs on each end. These can prove very useful down the road, as you will never have to hunt for adapters when you run into the "wrong" size port on something. Here for example you can get them from UK stock for under £6.

If I do not get any VGA/SC1224 output would there be any RF/TV output?


Anything is possible. :)

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby KLund1 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:39 am

I think I have a null modem cable somewhere, I'll look. Could I use that VT-52 or VT-100 that is on a ST language disk? If not, which prg?
I added that multi diag cart to my exxos order for this Falcon.
Again thanks everyone!
UPDATED: Falcon 030(FX-1)(CF int & removable SD), MSTE 4+PS3000 4160STE 2.06+HDFD STacy4-internal-USD 1040STFM+I.B.Driver-5.25"FDD 1040STF 1040ST 520ST-AdSpeed 400-48k 800+810x2+820+822+825+830+835+850, 800XL+IndusGT 600XL 130XE+XF551x2 Portfolio 1200XL APE(Warp+32in1 OS SuperVideo 2.1 256k RAMBO)+1050x2 USD'd+SIO2PC, PC1+PCH204+PCM124+PCF554x2

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby mikro » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:52 am

KLund1 wrote:Could I use that VT-52 or VT-100 that is on a ST language disk?

Sure, that will work fine.

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby KLund1 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:33 pm

Need to wait for the Exxos order to arrive before I can test with a diagnostics cart.
Anything I can test before arrival?
UPDATED: Falcon 030(FX-1)(CF int & removable SD), MSTE 4+PS3000 4160STE 2.06+HDFD STacy4-internal-USD 1040STFM+I.B.Driver-5.25"FDD 1040STF 1040ST 520ST-AdSpeed 400-48k 800+810x2+820+822+825+830+835+850, 800XL+IndusGT 600XL 130XE+XF551x2 Portfolio 1200XL APE(Warp+32in1 OS SuperVideo 2.1 256k RAMBO)+1050x2 USD'd+SIO2PC, PC1+PCH204+PCM124+PCF554x2

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby KLund1 » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:45 pm

What is 8N1?
"Just run some terminal emulation software on it and set it to 9600 8N1"
Which Falcon port to use?
The only null-modem cable I have is a F-DB25 to F-DB9. I have no gender changer. I have a F-DB9 to M-DB25 serial I can use a gender changer. But this setup will only connect the modem ports.
Thanks
UPDATED: Falcon 030(FX-1)(CF int & removable SD), MSTE 4+PS3000 4160STE 2.06+HDFD STacy4-internal-USD 1040STFM+I.B.Driver-5.25"FDD 1040STF 1040ST 520ST-AdSpeed 400-48k 800+810x2+820+822+825+830+835+850, 800XL+IndusGT 600XL 130XE+XF551x2 Portfolio 1200XL APE(Warp+32in1 OS SuperVideo 2.1 256k RAMBO)+1050x2 USD'd+SIO2PC, PC1+PCH204+PCM124+PCF554x2

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby neanderthal » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:41 am

8N1,shorthand for 8bits, No parity. 1 stop bit.You need to set in terminal.My quess would be the 9 pin serial connector on falcon as default.

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby sety » Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:49 am

KLund1 wrote:What is 8N1?
The only null-modem cable I have is a F-DB25 to F-DB9. I have no gender changer. I have a F-DB9 to M-DB25 serial I can use a gender changer. But this setup will only connect the modem ports.


It's often easier (and cheaper) just to make your own. You only need tx, rx and gnd. The control lines aren't used or required.
ATARI FALCON/CT60 @99/25Mhz 512MB - ATARI FALCON/CT60e @101.5/16Mhz 256MB - 520STF 1MB TF68020 - 520ST unmodified (my very first computer) - A couple of useless XE's - and a really cool Atari desktop calculator :)

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Re: Falcon Troubles

Postby derkom » Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:47 am

KLund1 wrote:The only null-modem cable I have is a F-DB25 to F-DB9. I have no gender changer. I have a F-DB9 to M-DB25 serial I can use a gender changer. But this setup will only connect the modem ports.
Thanks


Those are the correct ports to be connecting, so the combination of your two cables should give you what you need.


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