LCD capable of 100 Hz?

Troubles with your machine? Just want to speak about the latest improvements? This is the place!

Moderators: Mug UK, Zorro 2, spiny, Greenious, Moderator Team

mikro
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:11 am
Location: Kosice, Slovakia
Contact:

LCD capable of 100 Hz?

Postby mikro » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:53 am

While people are usually asking for LCDs able to cope with 15 kHz horizontal frequency, I would actually like to know whether there are still LCDs able to handle 100 Hz vertical frequency?

There's a few Falcon demos which are *really* unhappy with plain VGA/60 Hz.

User avatar
dhedberg
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:36 am
Contact:

Re: LCD capable of 100 Hz?

Postby dhedberg » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:41 pm

What about Freesync monitors? I don't know if any of them comes with an analog VGA input though?
Daniel, New Beat - http://newbeat.atari.org. Like demos? Have a look at our new Falcon030 demo MORE.

mzry
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 514
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:39 pm

Re: LCD capable of 100 Hz?

Postby mzry » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:26 pm

To get an LCD capable of over 100hz you will only find this with modern 'gaming' monitors. Which also means wide screen. Although I doubt that you would find one with VGA input.
Falcon ct60e 060 - 256mb ram - phantom bus and dsp accel // Atari TT - Thunder and Storm IDE 64mb ram - Lightning VME - USB LAN - Ati Mach64 2mb // Atari STM 4160 - 4MB ram - 16Mhz exxos 1.5 booster - Ultrasatan

ranix
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:01 pm

Re: LCD capable of 100 Hz?

Postby ranix » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:53 pm

Acer HN274H is 120hz capable with a VGA input, can get them used cheap on ebay

but yeah widescreen and who knows what video modes it supports. I have one and I guess I could try to find out but that sounds hard

User avatar
leech
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:26 pm

Re: LCD capable of 100 Hz?

Postby leech » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:20 am

I have two that handle 144hz :P They're rather pricey though. Dell S2716DG. Unfortunately they only have Display Port and HDMI. Curious, what demos don't like 60hz VGA? The Dell U2410 I just got will handle up to 76hz, though it's max is 1920x1200@60hz.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (VBXE, U1MB, Stereo POKEY)
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)

mikro
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:11 am
Location: Kosice, Slovakia
Contact:

Re: LCD capable of 100 Hz?

Postby mikro » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:52 am

Of course, HDMI/DVI (digital input) is not interesting here. As mentioned, we're after an analog >100 Hz input.

There seem(ed) to be a few industrial LCDs with amazing specs (24 - 100 kHz / 48 -120 Hz) but those were for hospitals (for surgeons :)) - look for Eizo RadiForce SCD 19102 for instance.

And for the demos, I can remember Sono VGA version, early DHS demos (which do support VGA/60 but look like crap), Outfast by TBL, Alive by FUN (special 100 Hz mode), heck, even most of my demos ;-)

So ranix, feel free to hook up one of those demos and give it a try if you like.

ctirad
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 263
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:44 pm

Re: LCD capable of 100 Hz?

Postby ctirad » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:52 pm

What about to patch the VGA100Hz (and PAL) demos to output regular VGA timings? As a side effect it will make them BUS accelerator compatible.

mikro
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:11 am
Location: Kosice, Slovakia
Contact:

Re: LCD capable of 100 Hz?

Postby mikro » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:01 am

ctirad wrote:What about to patch the VGA100Hz (and PAL) demos to output regular VGA timings? As a side effect it will make them BUS accelerator compatible.

You wouldn't be the first to suggest that. :) I even have something like ~8 years old code which does that universally for "every' demo. However there are numerous problems which fall mostly into two categories:

1. Video incompatibility
- many (mostly RGB) demos hook on VBL, i.e. music, effects etc is hard-synced to 50 Hz (same as all Amiga demos do...)
- some demos (VGA/100 Hz) take advantage of the "double double lines", i.e. on VGA/60 Hz you would get a thin "tube" and not full screen
- some RGB demos take advantage of hires/overscan hicolour modes, impossible to emulate on standard VGA

2. CPU incompatibility (as a reply to the faster bus/cpu)
- many demos don't like faster CPU in general: they count number of iterations in the main loop for instance instead of (at least) relying on VBL

So you see, in the end it's easier just to have a 100 Hz LCD. ;)

User avatar
dhedberg
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:36 am
Contact:

Re: LCD capable of 100 Hz?

Postby dhedberg » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:10 am

...or an old CRT 14" RGB monitor. Nothing can beat that!
Daniel, New Beat - http://newbeat.atari.org. Like demos? Have a look at our new Falcon030 demo MORE.

mikro
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:11 am
Location: Kosice, Slovakia
Contact:

Re: LCD capable of 100 Hz?

Postby mikro » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:35 am

dhedberg wrote:...or an old CRT 14" RGB monitor. Nothing can beat that!

Except the space they take. :) For me it was mostly the issue of having a Nemesis/Phantom/CT2/BlowUP with an LCD for having great resolutions like 1024x768x8-bit@45 Hz and still having the possibility to run mentioned 100 Hz demos.

I can't solve this with a CRT because the requirements go against each other (you certainly don't want to have 45 Hz on a CRT... ;)) and having two VGA monitors on my desk, well...

Btw: there is a few demos which are VGA/100 Hz only. Then a RGB monitor can't be of help either...

User avatar
dhedberg
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:36 am
Contact:

Re: LCD capable of 100 Hz?

Postby dhedberg » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:43 am

I totally understand what you're saying. Space is always a problem. Can never get enough of that.
Nothing beats a CRT when it comes to demos though. That's why I keep my 19" VGA CRT screen on my desk even though it takes up a lot of space. The 14" RGB CRT is in the closet. For the Falcon030 demos requiring RGB mode I find that the Benq BL912 does a good enough job. Actually it performs so good that I *may* eventually get rid of the 19" VGA CRT as well. Time will tell. :-)
Daniel, New Beat - http://newbeat.atari.org. Like demos? Have a look at our new Falcon030 demo MORE.

ctirad
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 263
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:44 pm

Re: LCD capable of 100 Hz?

Postby ctirad » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:27 am

mikro wrote:You wouldn't be the first to suggest that. :)


I know, we have been arguing about it several times ;)

I even have something like ~8 years old code which does that universally for "every' demo.


Was it even released? I'm definitely interested in such code.

- many (mostly RGB) demos hook on VBL, i.e. music, effects etc is hard-synced to 50 Hz (same as all Amiga demos do...)


A lot of LCD panels are capable of VGA at 50Hz, because 576p@50Hz is definded as a standard HDTV mode.
And even the unsynced 60Hz is better than nothing for me.

- some demos (VGA/100 Hz) take advantage of the "double double lines", i.e. on VGA/60 Hz you would get a thin "tube" and not full screen


I had "tube" on both of my old CRT VGAs back then anyway :( The 100Hz VGA was just an ugly hack out of any specs.

- some RGB demos take advantage of hires/overscan hicolour modes, impossible to emulate on standard VGA


Hey, you give up too early ;)
The overscan can be either masked or, again, the 576p mode can be utilised. For hires TC (+overscan), well, how many such a demos are there (not counting slideshows with ripped off boris valejo images)?

So you see, in the end it's easier just to have a 100 Hz LCD. ;)


No, it does not solve the most classic F030 demos that are 15khz only.

mikro
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:11 am
Location: Kosice, Slovakia
Contact:

Re: LCD capable of 100 Hz?

Postby mikro » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:37 am

ctirad wrote:The overscan can be either masked or, again, the 576p mode can be utilised. For hires TC (+overscan), well, how many such a demos are there (not counting slideshows with ripped off boris valejo images)?

Even 384x256 (with double lines, mind you) is a problem because then again, if you switch to VGA/32 MHz to emulate that, you'd get not only the tube but also huge borders, literally a little square with picture in the middle. ;)

IMO that ruins the experience enough to just fire up youtube and watch it there.

I've been working on the tool again (ironically, for totally different reasons) and I'm considering to throw in this RGB emulation as well so people like you can have this masochist VGA experience. ;-)


Social Media

     

Return to “Hardware”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests