Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby edingacic » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:32 pm

Here is my setup playing a tune I am working on at the moment .... something to get you going while you do your research.
Your work could have big impact for MIDI sequencing on ATARI

https://vimeo.com/254867116

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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby Atari74user » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:36 pm

So you can use the firmware from the SMPII on the SMP24, or is there a special 1.6 release just for the SMP24? If you can interchange them, they must be nearly identical at the hardware level.


They should be interchangeable, certainly from v1.4x (SMP24) to v1.6x (SMPII), I am not sure if many have tried a 1.4x in an SMPII, but the theory would suggest you can in as much as placing a 1.6x in an SMP24, which people have tended to do by burning the firmware.

Do you use yours for SMPTE and MIDI input, or just the extra MIDI outs? If people are only using them for MIDI outs, then I guess there's no point trying to reverse-engineer the protocol - because the Friend Chip MM1 protocol already gives 8 outs.


Me personally, I use the SMPII purely for extra MIDI.

edingacic wrote:I also have SMP 1.6 Firmware if you need it


It would be nice to share, in the event something my goes horribly wrong one day! I may have it somewhere, as I am sure I downloaded when various links were working.
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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby guus.assmann » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:52 pm

Hello Foxie,
What I can see in the schematics is that the LDS signal is used as a clock to 74F74 FF's.
A signal called SEM is delayed by one extra FF that's also clocked with the LDS.
So it looks like the complete access cycle is delayed to give the Midex a bit more time to finish a cycle.
Maybe slowing down the Falcon can have the Midex work.
I've not had time to check the driver, so I don't know if the patch does work at all.
BR/
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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby edingacic » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:15 pm

Well it would be nice to have timecode also and locked to a frame because I use my sequencer also to sync with HD tape deck for music and fx for film. So it would be really nice but I have midex+ that can do that so that is fine also.

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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby Foxie » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:49 am

edingacic wrote:Here is my setup playing a tune I am working on at the moment .... something to get you going while you do your research.


Very nice! Got to love that TT mono monitor too ^.^

I didn't realise you had so much uploaded on Vimeo, if you don't mind I'll have a look around later!

edingacic wrote:I also have SMP 1.6 Firmware if you need it


That could be useful, any idea what processor the SMP uses? I've found a low-res picture of the internals of the SMP24 - it looks like it uses four ACIAs (or similar) and some unidentified 40 pin packages, one of which is surely the processor.

edingacic wrote:Well it would be nice to have timecode also and locked to a frame because I use my sequencer also to sync with HD tape deck for music and fx for film. So it would be really nice but I have midex+ that can do that so that is fine also.


The tricky part about implementing SMPTE in a printer port device is figuring out how the SMP24/II protocol works. The Midex is much easier since it's a simple logic implementation of a SMPTE reader. Of course, if I ever manage to clone the Midex it will definitely include SMPTE.

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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby charles » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:50 am

nice tune edingagic !!!
ever heard of subtropic ,,, ?
I still like them to this day ...your sounds match theirs!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wxHzcn7q7s
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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby edingacic » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:25 pm

Here is 1.6 eprom
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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby edingacic » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:42 pm

Very nice! Got to love that TT mono monitor too ^.^

I didn't realise you had so much uploaded on Vimeo, if you don't mind I'll have a look around later!


Yeah I love the TT mono monitor but it is starting to fade after so many years so I will have to get the Tenox vga adapter http://tenoxvga.tenox.net
project is also open source so maybe someone else can build it cheaper https://github.com/tenox7/tenoxvga

About my Vimeo page its my work as 3d animator / filmmaker. You can also check http://www.filmtools.at

Let me know about MM1 second test do I need to wait for a new test file?

nice tune edingagic !!!
ever heard of subtropic ,,, ?
I still like them to this day ...your sounds match theirs!


Thank you charles. No i have never heard of subtropic I will check them out.

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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby Atari74user » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:18 pm

edingacic wrote:Here is 1.6 eprom


Much appreciated, thank you!
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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby edingacic » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:00 pm

my quick MO4 test with DX7... but I don't know if the DX7 is working right every sound I play on it is modulated and sounds like FX ... anyone know how to reset DX7?

Foxie can i run this test with a sampler?
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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby edingacic » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:20 pm

here is one more test after i reset dx7 but i was not able to hear any cords during the test. DX7 plays fine when i play cords on the keyboard.
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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby Foxie » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:52 am

edingacic wrote:here is one more test after i reset dx7 but i was not able to hear any cords during the test. DX7 plays fine when i play cords on the keyboard.


Thanks! I'll analyze the results tomorrow ^.^

Not hearing the chords is normal enough, that just indicates the MO4 doesn't have a sufficiently large buffer to hold enough events for a chord.

The new MM1 test program is coming along nicely, I'll let you know when it's ready. The MM1 does exhibit some unusual behaviour under some conditions, which I'd like to learn more about. I've never seen the driver write anything to the MM1 which would replicate those conditions though, so it's a bit of a mystery why it works like that.

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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby Foxie » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:31 am

A strange discovery - it seems there are at least two different revisions of the SoundPool MO4. One has a buffer, while the other does not! Considering the MO4 is based around what looks like a CPLD, it's probably just a different "firmware" revision (actually, configuration data). But the buffered model could even be using a bigger CPLD or an entirely different internal design.

The response of both models is a bit weird. I can't figure out exactly what's happening internally yet. Sometimes the hardware remains busy for only ~50 microseconds, while other times it's busy for nearly 300. It's almost as if it's based around an MCU, but I can't see an MCU anywhere on the board. I don't think Lattice ever made MCUs.

In other news, I e-mailed Geerdes (they're still around) and actually heard back! They seem to remember their old products, but sadly they don't have archived copies of the Cubase driver for the Starport. It looks like these days they do MIDI files for arranger workstations.

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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby edingacic » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:31 am

Hi Foxie,

I found MM1 device and with it i got a 2 sheets of printer paper about it.

General Info

The MM 1 offers eight addressable MIDI PORTS. Each of the eight MIDI PORTS covers all 16 MIDI CHANNELS. This allows you to address up to 128 MIDI voices.

Some software drivers even allow you to cascade up to four MM 1 units, for a total of 512 voices. You need a special cable for cascading MM 1 units.

(but there is no info what software and what drivers and what special cable)


There i found about setting of DIP-switches

The setting of DIP switches is important for cascading the MM 1 units. Nevertheless, you should check for the correct setting, when you first use the MM1 UNIT.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8


1 to 4 unit address 1 = ON means module one
5 usually ON
6 usually OFF, ON in all units, if several MM 1 units are cascaded
7 and 8 ON if only one MM 1 unit is connected for cascading the MM 1 units select the following:

ON in module 1, which is connected to the computer
OFF in modules 2,3 and 4.


Today I even try to see if I can cascade MM1 with SMP24 and it kinda works but not.... I put the desktop accessory and select remote on the MM1 unit then I connected smp24 to MM1 printer port. When I start in printer mode and start CuBase with SMP4.DRV loaded in MROS folder the SMP24 unit beebs and I see the display on front displays the 1.65 rom and boots but then when it does not reset the counter to 0.0.0.0 and when I go to CuBase inspector I can see that the ports are grayed out. I try different combination on the MM1 unit for the DIP switches closing and firing the remote app and cubase but could not make it work. They talk about some special cable in this sheet of paper that my MM1 came with. Could it be that the cable has different pin wiring?

It would be really cool if I could make MM1 and SMP24 work at the same time form the TT030 Printer port :)

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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby Atari74user » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:25 pm

That's interesting, I see the above reads 'cascading MM1s', but not specifically cascading different MIDI peripherals such as the SMPs or M04. Is there anywhere that reads you can do this? I always assumed as the MM1 is the only MIDI peripheral which connects to the printer port and has a 'thru' port, users could only connect printers to the MM1 to keep that peripheral connected if owned, and now as I have learned, other MM1s.

The reason I point this out, is that I could share my printer port with a manual switcher, but if I want to share the printer port at the same time without switching, I get the same symptoms as you. I decided to test a parallel Y-splitter cable connecting both M04 and SMPII, but I experienced exactly the same, one would work, but not the other. So I came to the conclusion that essentially it is not possible to connect an M04 or SMP together in any combination no matter what, and I assumed the same would be true of an MM1. I appreciate the MM1 does have a thru port, but it's interesting the symptoms are the same using Cubase.
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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby edingacic » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:44 pm

If there was a way to set the SMP24 so that MM1 thinks its device id 2 then it would probably work in MIDI mode? Since module 1 DIP switch is set for each device as 1,2,3 or 4 . MM1 when switched to printer does not allow SMP24 to work withing CuBase why is that? If it just a "thru port"?

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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby edingacic » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:45 pm

Or maybe there is a special driver for MM1? They talk about this special cable and special some drivers?

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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby Atari74user » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:26 am

Out of interest, are you using this driver?
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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby edingacic » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:40 am

Yes

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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby edingacic » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:30 pm

Foxie mentioned a Startport driver supporting cascading maybe that is the driver that MM1 paper was refering to if they are identical in nature? Wondering if I can try to load this Starport driver and see. Anyone have it?

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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby chrisnova777 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:48 am

honestly having just read this thread i think there was alot of things said here that were said with little to no surety, ie: in assumption, to say that firmware can be shared between the SMP24 + and the SMP24/II i think that would be very much false, also the comments that were said by Foxiie about MIDI being a joke in 1992, jumped out at me as being entirely innacurate. people like to jump online and talk like they are experts when they really have not the life experience or time devoted to be so confidantly speaking with authority, i think all readers should take the comments made here in this thread with a grain of salt as alot of it is off the cuff rambling.

anyone can "open something up" and read an eeprom, or dissassemble + reassemble tech from the 80s when things were not so micro-soldered + electronics were less advanced, but to go online and pretend like you can reverse engineer everything and actually come up with something stable + usefull, there seems to be alot of hobbyists like this. sometimes it works out and the scene gets blessed with new versions of old products like when these pc guys have cloned the pc-midi music quest card, but cloning is alot more viable then totally re-engineering things, or trying to talk like you are capable of re-engineering things, quite often this ends up with the person then dissappearing off the face of the net with no visible results and everyone realizes ok this guy was having fun talking like he was something special for attention and then poof! hes gone :cheers:

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Re: Upgrading serial port for higher speed / more midi stability

Postby Atari74user » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:44 pm

honestly having just read this thread i think there was alot of things said here that were said with little to no surety, ie: in assumption, to say that firmware can be shared between the SMP24 + and the SMP24/II i think that would be very much false...


Actually this is not quite accurate, the Steinberg SMP24 was initially released to be compatible with Steinberg's Pro-24, hence the naming convention. The SMP24 was released circa '87, pre Cubase which was not released until circa '89 on the Atari ST only initially.

The SMP24 shipped with EPROM firmware version v1.3x, which became superseded with v1.4x. Both of these versions of firmware were Pro-24 compatible only. It wasn't until firmware version v1.6 was introduced when the SMP24 became compatible with MROS, this being for the time, one of the defining powerful features which Cubase introduced. Without firmware versions greater than v1.6, users were restricted to Pro-24 compatibility only, in fact users were encouraged to update to the latest firmware, all of which is documented in the SMP24 manual.

The SMPII which of course came later, primarily for the Falcon but not exclusive to, came with v1.6x out of the box, meaning it was immediately compatible with Cubase. SMP24 users had to have the later version of firmware to ensure this compatibility as mentioned, and some users, even fairly recently have upgraded their SMP24 with the last believed firmware from the SMPII, v1.65, to gain this compatibility with MROS and hence Cubase. One of the reasons users have been requesting the v1.65 firmware.

Whether v1.3x or v1.4x firmware can be used in an SMPII is indeed speculation, but the question really is what is the point to downgrade in this instance.
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