Resourced TOS Rom

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby troed » Sun May 29, 2016 6:27 pm

galahad wrote:As for your confusion, don't be confused. Why should I rewrite ALL TOS drawing routines when I can write ONE routine that will capture ALL redraw changes on the ST screen and convert to Amiga display?

Are you still confused?


Yes - you can easily write "ONE routine that will capture ALL redraw changes" for TOS as well. But hey - I'm just one of those demo scene coders who know every bit there is to know ...

/Troed

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 6:30 pm

troed wrote:
galahad wrote:As for your confusion, don't be confused. Why should I rewrite ALL TOS drawing routines when I can write ONE routine that will capture ALL redraw changes on the ST screen and convert to Amiga display?

Are you still confused?


Yes - you can easily write "ONE routine that will capture ALL redraw changes" for TOS as well. But hey - I'm just one of those demo scene coders who know every bit there is to know ...

/Troed


Whats that supposed to mean? Did I write something factually inaccurate?

Listen, I appreciate that Super Sprint is a holy grail of ST gaming, and its beloved by the ST community at large, but this isn't about Amiga VS ST and how Amiga owners are more refined, its a simple point that TIME hasn't been kind to Super Sprint when its compared to other games of its type, and that goes for ST as well as Amiga.

I haven't slagged off the graphics, I haven't slagged off the sound, but some of you on here don't appear to take criticism very well, and act frankly, a bit childish (to quote "cute").

This isn't Amiga vs ST, this is like minded people that are interested in retro computing that are just trying to do some things before theres not enough people left to care anymore, but one or two of you seem intent on being combative and overly sensitive to an imagined 'offence' where none is intended.

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby troed » Sun May 29, 2016 6:42 pm

galahad wrote:Whats that supposed to mean? Did I write something factually inaccurate?


Either that or there's something about drawing routines that I don't know.

this isn't about Amiga VS ST and how Amiga owners are more refined


Thanks for clarifying - that's what it sounded like.

(I've never seen anyone play single player Super Sprint - even in 1986)

/Troed

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby joska » Sun May 29, 2016 6:56 pm

galahad wrote:Why should I rewrite ALL TOS drawing routines when I can write ONE routine that will capture ALL redraw changes on the ST screen and convert to Amiga display?


Even the mighty A500 can't do this at 50/60fps and leave a decent amount of bus bandwidth to the actual game (or application). ST games use cpu only - the A500 already has a slower CPU and you're spending a lot of bus bandwidth converting graphics on the fly. So this approach limits you to simple games like Starquake. Games with static screens and a few, small sprites. And what about sound? You won't have the CPU power to emulate the YM-chip, so you either have to live without sound or replace the sound routines with native Amiga code.

I really doubt that it's possible to write a generic "ST-emulator" for the A500.
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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby joska » Sun May 29, 2016 7:10 pm

galahad wrote:Because its simply not.... this is a fact, the A500 was NEVER a consideration for EMUTos.

EMUTos works fine on ST because its coded to utilise the ST's graphic display format, whilst the Amiga is superior, its hardware is of little benefit when it has to realtime convert the entire screen, it has to rely on its 68000 processor, so its hampered right from the off.


This is plain and simple wrong. If EmuTOS isn't suitable for the A500, then why do you want to spend time on TOS 1.02 which is neither faster nor smaller than EmuTOS? And EmuTOS is already running on the Amiga.

galahad wrote:As far as i'm aware, unless EMUTos on the Amiga has been altered in the past year, its still only in monochrome as the author couldn't figure out how to support 16 colour mode with the Amigas hardware.


I doubt that Vincent couldn't "figure out" this ;) The reality is that there's very little point in adapting the VDI to the Amiga bitplane layout. Mono is easy, because the VDI works unmodified on that. But why spend lot of time adapting the VDI to display GEM applications in four colours?

galahad wrote:1). interpret mouse events
2). interpret screen redraw
3). interpret audio events
4). interpret disk events


All of this - except sound as ST TOS doesn't have any sound routines - is already implemented in EmuTOS on the Amiga. But it won't solve your problem, because ST games usually has their own mouse/keyboard handler which talks directly to the keyboard controller. And virtually no ST game will use TOS to draw to the screen, but rather access the hardware directly. Then it will use the MFP - which the Amiga doesn't have - to split the palette. And access the YM directly to produce music, using a music player that also use the MFP for it's timers.

galahad wrote:And the entire point of this exercise is precisely to job lot convert the system compliant games on the ST that the Amiga didn't get


There are very, very few "system compliant" games for the ST.
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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 7:24 pm

troed wrote:Either that or there's something about drawing routines that I don't know.


You're still not making yourself clear, how is what I wrote factually inaccurate?

Please elaborate, this is not Twitter, you can expand as much as you like ;)


thanks for clarifying - that's what it sounded like


Then that is entirely YOUR problem for interpreting a post, and taken out of context that was written FOUR years ago, and isn't and NEVER was relevant to this thread. :?

You have a chip on your shoulder, further 'discussion' with you would appear to be pointless.

Amiga vs ST 'wars' are a thing of the past ffs! :cry:

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 7:37 pm

joska wrote:This is plain and simple wrong. If EmuTOS isn't suitable for the A500, then why do you want to spend time on TOS 1.02 which is neither faster nor smaller than EmuTOS? And EmuTOS is already running on the Amiga.


It isn't, EmuTOS is NOT coded for A500, or do you think A500 is replete with IDE interfaces that EMUTos uses? Its primary Amiga use is in A1200.

And its my time, I can spend it as I please, i'm perplexed that you seem to worry about how I spend *my* time.


joska wrote:I doubt that Vincent couldn't "figure out" this ;)


Then with respect, you're wrong. ;)

I used *his* words, not mine. Note I didn't say he couldn't do it, just that he couldn't see a way to use Amiga 'hardware' to solve the problem. I have no doubt that he could have done it in software (I offered my routine to do just that), but he wanted to do it with hardware or not at all was my impression.

joska wrote: The reality is that there's very little point in adapting the VDI to the Amiga bitplane layout. Mono is easy, because the VDI works unmodified on that. But why spend lot of time adapting the VDI to display GEM applications in four colours?


Why do we bother to do anything with any of our obsolete hardware? Do we NEED a reason? ST's can be picked up relatively cheaply, it would simply be easier to just use the machine instead of using emulators and the like, but we don't ;)

joska wrote:All of this - except sound as ST TOS doesn't have any sound routines - is already implemented in EmuTOS on the Amiga. But it won't solve your problem, because ST games usually has their own mouse/keyboard handler which talks directly to the keyboard controller. And virtually no ST game will use TOS to draw to the screen, but rather access the hardware directly. Then it will use the MFP - which the Amiga doesn't have - to split the palette. And access the YM directly to produce music, using a music player that also use the MFP for it's timers.


I'm aware of this, but lots of early ST games that the Amiga didn't get, didn't do a lot of those things, they were largely system compliant, those are the focus, not the exclusively hardware banging ones, hence the need to convert those separately.

Note i'm exclusively dealing with largely system compliant games that aren't necessarily taxing the ST to hard, if its a fast action game, then its not going to work properly, but slower paced games that don't rely on lightning fast display techniques, ripe for conversion.

joska wrote:There are very, very few "system compliant" games for the ST.


In my experience so far, thats not true. Bearing in mind i'm referring to early ST stuff that existed before the Amiga became popular, after a certain period, the Amiga got its own version, but for the first couple of years on the ST, plenty of system compliant stuff with minimal hardware banging is around, whether or not they are actually worth converting is another matter, but i'm merely exploring ideas right now, and EMUTos simply doesn't do 16 colour low res games.

I'm attempting to see if its doable for the lower performance stuff. I'm perplexed at the incessant resistance to the idea.

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby mfro » Sun May 29, 2016 8:10 pm

galahad wrote:In my experience so far, thats not true. Bearing in mind i'm referring to early ST stuff that existed before the Amiga became popular, after a certain period, the Amiga got its own version, but for the first couple of years on the ST, plenty of system compliant stuff with minimal hardware banging is around ...


If these games _were_ system compliant, EmuTOS could run them. EmuTOS has everything drawing related TOS 1.02 has.

galahad wrote:and EMUTos simply doesn't do 16 colour low res games.


Not true.

EmuTOS supports VDI and LineA (the TOS parts that handle drawing) in all ST screen resolutions (on the Amiga only in mono because of it's different screen memory layout).

Many or the old games that do not run on EmuTOS just don't run because they don't behave correctly. They load to fixed addresses (damaging EmuTOS' data area) or reference undocumented system variables. Lots of them don't even run on newer TOS versions and/or with a hard disk for the same reason.

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 8:17 pm

mfro wrote:If these games _were_ system compliant, EmuTOS could run them. EmuTOS has everything drawing related TOS 1.02 has.


But emphatically NOT in 16 colours on an Amiga which is my focus here.


mfro wrote:Not true.

EmuTOS supports VDI and LineA (the TOS parts that handle drawing) in all ST screen resolutions (on the Amiga only in mono because of it's different screen memory layout).


Its precisely true in the case of the Amiga version which is what i'm referring to. Lets be clear, I make NO claims on what EmuTOS does on any system other than Amiga, and the Amiga version doesn't currently do 16 colour lowres.

The Amiga is my ONLY focus, no other system.

mfro wrote:Many or the old games that do not run on EmuTOS just don't run because they don't behave correctly. They load to fixed addresses (damaging EmuTOS' data area) or reference undocumented system variables. Lots of them don't even run on newer TOS versions and/or with a hard disk for the same reason.


i'm aware of that, hence why the need to tackle those separately like I had to do with Where Time Stood Still, Recoil and Starquake, but my proposal is for stuff that doesn't do that, of which there will be plenty of early stuff that doesn't bang the hardware directly.

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 8:23 pm

joska wrote:
galahad wrote:Why should I rewrite ALL TOS drawing routines when I can write ONE routine that will capture ALL redraw changes on the ST screen and convert to Amiga display?


Even the mighty A500 can't do this at 50/60fps and leave a decent amount of bus bandwidth to the actual game (or application). ST games use cpu only - the A500 already has a slower CPU and you're spending a lot of bus bandwidth converting graphics on the fly. So this approach limits you to simple games like Starquake. Games with static screens and a few, small sprites. And what about sound? You won't have the CPU power to emulate the YM-chip, so you either have to live without sound or replace the sound routines with native Amiga code.

I really doubt that it's possible to write a generic "ST-emulator" for the A500.


Thats not even a concern.

If its a fast action game, its not going to happen, period. But for instance, a board game, strategy game that doesn't rely on quick display abilities, thats entirely possible and doesn't need to run smoothly.

I'm not trying to write a generic ST Emulator, i'm looking into the feasibility of writing a TOS/Gem emulation thats fast enough for the least taxing programs that the Amiga didn't get, and thats it.

I would hazard a guess that most games fully utilising the ST system for compliancy are not likely to be fast paced action games, and they will be the simplest ones, which is the entire point of the exercise ;)

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby Anima » Sun May 29, 2016 8:26 pm

galahad wrote:Not really interested in discussing it further with you, you seem intent on conflict, and I won't play your game. :cheers:

It was a good advice because I know what I am talking about because it really works. IDK why you think it was a bad intention.

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby shoggoth » Sun May 29, 2016 8:47 pm

galahad, you've been given good advice and input in this thread.

While we're at it - I have browsed the entire TOS sources. No I won't share it with you - ever - but I do know a fair amount of what's in there. And if you want to make something which runs TOS stuff on the Amiga, EmuTOS is definitely the way to go. About the lack of 16 color graphics, well - you already know the main problem there when it comes to games; bitplanes are a bit off compared to the Amiga. So even if you messed around with TOS to make it boot on the Amiga (people already did this, by the way), you'd still have to come up with something for those bitplanes. And that'll be much easier to achieve on EmuTOS.

I'd say you should take good advice when given, be thankful for it, and - pardon my french - try to be a bit less of a dick when doing so.
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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby troed » Sun May 29, 2016 8:59 pm

galahad wrote:You're still not making yourself clear, how is what I wrote factually inaccurate?


What you want to do is the same as what EmuTOS does. The thing you need to do which EmuTOS doesn't is to add 16 color rendering. In your own words, you're only looking for system compliant games (I believe there might be one, I think I bought it with my first ST. I'm less sure there's two).

Thus the easiest solution is for you to fork EmuTOS and add 16 color rendering.

However, all that is based on your misunderstanding of the task at hand. That you suffer from Dunning-Kruger doesn't help you.

/Troed

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby troed » Sun May 29, 2016 9:05 pm

... and here's the game. I didn't know until now that it also was the first ever commercial game on the ST. What I do remember was that it seemed to run in medium res, didn't sync to vertical blank (IIRC) and the music could easily be XBIOS. Albeit, all that is my 30 year old memories of it. I see the dumps are missing on Atarimania and no, I don't have my original still ...

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st ... _9788.html

edit: This review seems apt: http://chasingthebumblebee.blogspot.se/ ... havoc.html

edit 2: This video seems to confirm my memories: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tGu8_IiEvM
- still editing this post since this might be the one game you'll be able to port using your proposed method.
Last edited by troed on Sun May 29, 2016 9:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 9:28 pm

What you want to do is the same as what EmuTOS does. The thing you need to do which EmuTOS doesn't is to add 16 color rendering. In your own words, you're only looking for system compliant games (I believe there might be one, I think I bought it with my first ST. I'm less sure there's two).


EmuTOS on Amiga doesn't have 16 colour and it doesn't utilise floppy access either and isn't useable on A500.

Thus the easiest solution is for you to fork EmuTOS and add 16 color rendering.


See reasons above. I also consider EmuTOS to be BlankVectors baby on the Amiga, and i'm not keen on intruding on what he is doing, if he wants to add 16 colour support etc, i'm sure he will or he won't.

I just prefer to do my own thing, helps with the learning when it comes to future ST conversion projects where no kind of emulation is going to help get it running on Amiga.

However, all that is based on your misunderstanding of the task at hand.


I'm at a loss as to how I as the proposer can misunderstand what it is *i'm* trying to achieve.

That you suffer from Dunning-Kruger doesn't help you.


Classy stuff champ, of course lets refresh our memory about why you're having a pissy fit right now, because someone else posted an ancient post from another board from four years ago that wasn't even on topic, and you thought it was another Amiga vs ST row, so acted like a petulant child about it.

The irony of you posting about Dunning-Kruger is lost on you ;)

I think you and me are done here, you want conflict where there is none, keep it to yourself.
Last edited by galahad on Sun May 29, 2016 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 9:37 pm

galahad, you've been given good advice and input in this thread.


Some of it yes.

While we're at it - I have browsed the entire TOS sources. No I won't share it with you - ever -


OK, thanks for that, already got it elsewhere, but if I ever lose the source, i'll be sure to not ask you for a backup copy, because that won't happen - ever -.

but I do know a fair amount of what's in there.


Great stuff, I would ask what that is, but obviously you won't be imparting that information any time soon, so I won't. Saves us both time :)

And if you want to make something which runs TOS stuff on the Amiga, EmuTOS is definitely the way to go.


But not on an Amiga A500 which was the entire point of the exercise.

About the lack of 16 color graphics, well - you already know the main problem there when it comes to games; bitplanes are a bit off compared to the Amiga.


Yup, the three ST games I converted to Amiga had exactly that problem.

So even if you messed around with TOS to make it boot on the Amiga (people already did this, by the way),


Yup, and of course you remember how unusable it was, hence the desire to make it better... by the way.

you'd still have to come up with something for those bitplanes.


Of course, goes without saying.

And that'll be much easier to achieve on EmuTOS.


Just not on a plain A500 though.

I'd say you should take good advice when given, be thankful for it,


I'm pretty sure I gave thanks in this very thread, or did you skim read?

and - pardon my french - try to be a bit less of a dick when doing so.


Ah, selective reading.

I'm so glad you popped into the thread, everyone has been utterly reasonable so far.... except me, i've been the "dick".

I think i've been utterly courteous, even inspite of the off topic posting about Super Sprint, which has sent one or two chaps into apoplectic rages and diverted the thread somewhat, of course, you're absolutely right, i'm the "dick".

I'm sure glad you responded, you've made things much better :cheers:

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby troed » Sun May 29, 2016 10:07 pm

Regarding floppy support:

Added support for reading standard ST/PC 720 KB floppy disks.

- BlankVector, 13 August 2012, 18:03

Followed by:

Due to license issues, floppy support (provided by AROS sources) is not enabled in the official binaries. If you want to use it, you have to rebuild EmuTOS yourself using "make amiga AROS=1". You will be allowed to use the resulting ROM, but not to redistribute it. I expect those license issues to be fixed in next release, as soon as I get Toni Wilen's agreement to reuse his code in GPL software.


(Which Toni did according to a later post so if it's still not included by default someone else has to elaborate upon why .. )

... but anyway that seems still to be the by far easiest way to get this done. Again, adding medium and low res rendering to Amiga layout is trivial - and would be exactly the same for EmuTOS as for any other reverse engineered TOS version.

... aaaand Galahad knows all this since the last posts in that thread are between him and BlankVector.

Your routines will be welcome.

- regarding adding color rendering. Don't really see "wanted to do in hardware or not at all" from BlankVector there ..

Oh, and the game I posted about - first commercial game on ST - supports high res and so might even run on EmuTOS/Amiga as is ...

/Troed

Source for all the quotes: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=64812

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby BlankVector » Sun May 29, 2016 10:33 pm

galahad wrote:Not a 1meg 68000 Amiga A500 it doesn't ;)

EMUTOS is more suited to A1200 and the like, it has virtually no optimization whatsoever for the Amiga version.

EmuTOS for Amiga does not work on your A500 because it is only shipped as a ROM. And I guess you haven't replaced your AmigaOS ROM by EmuTOS. That ROM works fine on WinUAE when emulating A500.

However, EmuTOS for Amiga works fine on real A1000. It has been successfully tested in 2012, see there. And as far as I understand, A1000 and A500 are almost identical. But the A1000 has a big particularity: it only has a minimal loader in ROM, then it loads a full ROM image (Kickstart) from a special floppy. The EmuTOS for Amiga ROM is also shipped on such special floppy, so it can happily run on A1000 instead of Kickstart.

galahad wrote:It isn't, EmuTOS is NOT coded for A500, or do you think A500 is replete with IDE interfaces that EMUTos uses? Its primary Amiga use is in A1200.

EmuTOS for Amiga can read Atari floppies, thanks to AROS floppy routines. But since EmuTOS and AROS licenses are incompatible, such binary can't be redistributed. This is why the official EmuTOS for Amiga binary does not support floppies. But you can recompile yourself EmuTOS with AROS support enabled and use the resulting binary for yourself, that's perfectly legal.
On the other hand, the IDE driver has been written from scratch form the EmuTOS development team, and it works fine on Amiga (both WinUAE and Amiga 1200 with Blizzard 1260).

galahad wrote:this is a fact, the A500 was NEVER a consideration for EMUTos.

EmuTOS for A500 is one of my first considerations, because A500 is the most common machine, similar to ST. Since its ROM can't be easily replaced (unlike A1000 and its floppy), EmuTOS will have to run from RAM instead, leaving not much free RAM on plain A500. That would also require a loader written for AmigaOS (either bootsector or executable) in order to load that special EmuTOS into RAM. No one has done that yet.

galahad wrote:As far as i'm aware, unless EMUTos on the Amiga has been altered in the past year, its still only in monochrome as the author couldn't figure out how to support 16 colour mode with the Amigas hardware.

Amiga support in EmuTOS has not evolved since it appeared, and indeed it is still monochrome. The EmuTOS graphic routines (VDI) are closely tied to Atari interleaved bitplanes, and would require a lot of work to support Amiga color modes. I have no clue that it would be worth the effort.

galahad wrote:I'm aware of this, but lots of early ST games that the Amiga didn't get, didn't do a lot of those things, they were largely system compliant

I wish you good luck to find such games for your project.
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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby BlankVector » Sun May 29, 2016 10:43 pm

troed wrote:(Which Toni did according to a later post so if it's still not included by default someone else has to elaborate upon why .. )

Toni's code is only part of the license problem, there is also code from other authors. I still have this issue on my TODO list. But I must admit that license questions are not the fun part.
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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby alien » Mon May 30, 2016 12:40 am

It makes sense they only got EmuTos working for monochrome mode: the Amiga can't do the type of bitplane interleaving the Atari ST uses, but there's only one bitplane in high-rez.

Troed is right. Most games turn off the OS since TOS was notoriously slow. I remember using a "SoftBlitter" which replaced TOS' drawing routines with accelerated ones to make it less painful. Sure there may be some games that rely on TOS, but they'd probably be more easily rewritten.

Still, if Galahad wants to go off into the wilderness to find the Holy Grail, all power to him. He might even find it and experience glorious rapture, like his namesake did.

For a short time I owned both machines. Starglider 2 was fascinating to me, as it ran on both. I particularly liked its disk format: MFM encoded Atari ST compatible disks. On the Amiga there was fascinating code to decode the raw MFM track into sectors, etc, which allowed the floppies also to be read by Atari STs' WD1772s. It was a real "tour de force". I liked both machines, but preferred the Atari ST as a coding environment. It seemed to me that demos on the Atari ST shone on their technical merit, whereas those on the Amiga shone more on their artistic merit. As a coder, I therefore preferred making Atari ST demos. So did my friends who had had both machines much longer than I did. Still there was a lot of overlap: the MOD format, HAM images converted to Spectrum 512 to name but two examples.
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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby troed » Mon May 30, 2016 9:08 am

BlankVector wrote:The EmuTOS graphic routines (VDI) are closely tied to Atari interleaved bitplanes, and would require a lot of work to support Amiga color modes.


This intrigues me somewhat. I had a quick look at line drawing and it isn't nicely abstracted - true. So, since we have Amiga experts in the thread - the code below is from my Java bitmap converter that I hope supports Amiga bitplane formats as well. Is my understanding of them correct?

Code: Select all

                    int palette = lookup(pixel);
                    for (int n = 0; n < noBitplanes; n++) {
                        if (planarstructure == PLANAR_ST) {
                            // med res is 0,1,2,3 colors
                            // two words encode 16 pixels palette lookup
                            // 0000000000000000
                            // 0000000000000000

                            // for low res it's 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15
                            // four words encode 16 pixels palette lookup

                            output[addrc + n] = (char) (output[addrc + n] << 1);
                            output[addrc + n] |= (char) ((palette >> n) & 0x1);

                        } else if (planarstructure == PLANAR_ACBM) {
                            // each bitplane in full after one another

                            output[addrc + n * bitplaneRowSize * y] = (char) (output[addrc + n * bitplaneRowSize * y] << 1);
                            output[addrc + n * bitplaneRowSize * y] |= (char) ((palette >> n) & 0x1);

                        } else if (planarstructure == PLANAR_ILBM) {
                            // each bitplane image row after one another

                            output[addrc + n * bitplaneRowSize] = (char) (output[addrc + n * bitplaneRowSize] << 1);
                            output[addrc + n * bitplaneRowSize] |= (char) ((palette >> n) & 0x1);

                        }
                    }
                    currbit += 1;
                    if (currbit == 16) {        // current bitplane words filled, move on to next
                        currbit = 0;

                        if (planarstructure == PLANAR_ST) {
                            addrc += noBitplanes;
                        } else if (planarstructure == PLANAR_ACBM) {
                            addrc++;
                        } else if (planarstructure == PLANAR_ILBM) {
                            addrc++;
                            if (addrc % bitplaneRowSize == 0) {
                                // noBitplanes-1 since we just counted up one plane
                                addrc += bitplaneRowSize * (noBitplanes - 1);
                            }
                        }
                    }


/Troed

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby joska » Mon May 30, 2016 11:52 am

galahad wrote:I'm not trying to write a generic ST Emulator, i'm looking into the feasibility of writing a TOS/Gem emulation thats fast enough for the least taxing programs that the Amiga didn't get, and thats it.

I would hazard a guess that most games fully utilising the ST system for compliancy are not likely to be fast paced action games, and they will be the simplest ones, which is the entire point of the exercise ;)


I believe the real problem here is that you really don't know enough about the ST and ST-games. Apart from pure GEM-based games (which there are quite a few actually, and many probably runs under EmuTOS on the Amiga already) there are really very few games that actually use TOS apart from accessing the disk. A lot of games doesn't even do that in their original form. Do you have any specific games in mind?

I understand the idea, and it has been used on the ST platform to enable games to run from HD and/or on accelerated/later machines (like the Falcon). But that's on machines that has the ST hardware. Having a TOS to run the game on helps a lot (system variables set up, working BIOS etc) but you still has to tackle direct usage of ST-hardware. Yes, the easy approach for graphics is to copy and convert the ST framebuffer to the Amiga framebuffer, but that is quite limiting considering the huge amount of bus and CPU that's wasted on this. And then there's the MFP, the IKBD keyboard and the soundchip, you'll have to modify the game's usage of these chips anyway. There's not many early ST games that's worth porting IMO, why not do it properly and modify the game's sprite/drawing engine too? Listen to Anima, he's done this with great success with X68000-games.

For almost 30 years now we've been listening to Amiga owners complaining about crappy ST ports not using the Amiga hardware properly, and here's an Amiga guy wanting to port the simplest/oldest ST-games using a method that will make it even crappier ;)

If you want to understand how the ST BIOS/XBIOS works you can have a look here.

But I still don't understand the aversion against EmuTOS, you'll have to do the same things to Atari TOS that has already been done to EmuTOS and then some. With EmuTOS you can easily extract only the relevant parts, saving memory compared to using a hacked Atari TOS binary. And like Vincent has explained, it works on the A500. But of course, if you like a challenge... I'd rather spend time modifying the game itself than wasting time on Atari TOS when an open source alternative is available.
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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby Mug UK » Mon May 30, 2016 3:34 pm

I've had a PM from galahad and he won't be returning to the forum.

He's asked me to remove his user ID, but to keep the thread looking sensible, I'll leave them in.

His account will be switched off rather than removed.
My main site: http://www.mug-uk.co.uk - slowly digging up the bits from my past (and re-working a few): Atari ST, Sega 8-bit (game hacks) and NDS (Music ripping guide).

I develop a free Word (for Windows) add-in that's available for Word 2007 upwards. It's a fix-it toolbox that will allow power Word users to fix document errors. You can find it at: http://www.mikestoolbox.co.uk


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