Resourced TOS Rom

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Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sat May 28, 2016 12:41 pm

Has anyone ever resourced an Atari ST TOS ROM back to ASM source code?

I have a project in mind, and I'm not really that enthused with binary hacking the ROM to do what I want, and rather than re-invent the wheel, would be nice if someone has resourced it 100% cleanly then maybe I can use that instead.

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sat May 28, 2016 3:07 pm

Also, what memory address does TOS sit at?

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby exxos » Sat May 28, 2016 3:17 pm

You might want to look at EMUTOS. Thats open source as based on open source code from digital research inc which later became GEM.
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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby frank.lukas » Sat May 28, 2016 3:51 pm

Google -> atari tos source code

-> http://dev-docs.atariforge.org/
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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sat May 28, 2016 8:55 pm

exxos wrote:You might want to look at EMUTOS. Thats open source as based on open source code from digital research inc which later became GEM.


Thanks, i've seen it and its not good enough for what I want to do. Its simply do system hungry.

Then intention is to redo TOS 1.02 and have it work as fast as possible on a 68000 Amiga, so that all of the games that didn't make it to the Amiga but are TOS/GEM/BIOS dependent have a good chance of working, either that, or I have to write a custom mini TOS system so that it can run these games at as full speed as is humanly possible.

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sat May 28, 2016 10:02 pm

Did you know that EmuTOS already supports Amiga?

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby ijor » Sun May 29, 2016 12:43 am

I have been away from the scene for a couple of year, so somebody will correct me if I missed something ...

But I don't recall seeing, a full, comprehensive, complete, ready to re assemble TOS source. Note, btw, that most of TOS was originally in "C" language, not in assembler.

Portion were disassembled, of course, mainly the low level Bios. As a matter of fact, it was done back at the day. The famous book "ATARI ST INTERNALS" included full disassemble of the TOS 1.0 Bios. The full book is available online.

We also have partial original ATARI sources, as somebody posted a link above. But they are not complete, and they are for a much later version (don't recall which one).

TOS 1.2, as all the pre STe TOS versions, "live" at 0xfc0000, and is 192K.

... so that all of the games that didn't make it to the Amiga but are TOS/GEM/BIOS


Just out of curiosity, did you made a research about how many such games exist?

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby Steven Seagal » Sun May 29, 2016 7:31 am

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=806165#post806165

Thread necromancy aside, I stopped it not because it would have been difficult, it was stopped because in comparison to modern Amiga racing games, Super Sprint was severely lacking.

Studying the ST version quite intensively, I came to the conclusion that the AI for the other cars was virtually non-existant. Cars followed a virtually set route, only changing when gates opened, there just didn't seem to be much of a challenge to the game whatsover.

Compare it to Nitro or SuperCars, and its readily apparent just how woeful the AI in Super Sprint is. Whether or not the Arcade version is different I don't know, but technically the game was never a problem, it was the gameplay mechanics which for most Amiga owners would be too simplistic.
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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby troed » Sun May 29, 2016 8:43 am

Steven Seagal wrote:
it was the gameplay mechanics which for most Amiga owners would be too simplistic.


How cute.

/Troed

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 10:14 am

troed wrote:
Steven Seagal wrote:
it was the gameplay mechanics which for most Amiga owners would be too simplistic.


How cute.

/Troed


But objectively true.

As a multiplayer game, its fine, but as most Amiga owners are long past the day of having loads of friends over for multiplayer games, and most are still played as single player, the AI for Super Sprint is frankly a joke.

And my reasoning for saying it would be too simplistic for Amiga owners is also objectively true. Your snide comment aside, you are trying to compare a game that was written in 1986 to games that were released several years after, with all the gameplay improvements that come with that, and that is why Amiga owners would find it too simplistic.

This should be the very same argument labelled toward an ST owner that gets to play Nitro and Supercars on their ST before they get to play Super Sprint, I would imagine their response would be much the same.

My reasoning is sound, yours? Not so much ;)

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 10:15 am

Steven Seagal wrote:http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=806165#post806165

Thread necromancy aside, I stopped it not because it would have been difficult, it was stopped because in comparison to modern Amiga racing games, Super Sprint was severely lacking.

Studying the ST version quite intensively, I came to the conclusion that the AI for the other cars was virtually non-existant. Cars followed a virtually set route, only changing when gates opened, there just didn't seem to be much of a challenge to the game whatsover.

Compare it to Nitro or SuperCars, and its readily apparent just how woeful the AI in Super Sprint is. Whether or not the Arcade version is different I don't know, but technically the game was never a problem, it was the gameplay mechanics which for most Amiga owners would be too simplistic.


I'd be interested to know why you dragged that old post up as if it were relevant to this current discussion?

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 10:21 am

Eero Tamminen wrote:Did you know that EmuTOS already supports Amiga?


Not a 1meg 68000 Amiga A500 it doesn't ;)

EMUTOS is more suited to A1200 and the like, it has virtually no optimization whatsoever for the Amiga version.

I'm not interested in necessarily doing a full blown ST emulator, but there was a lot of software that used TOS/GEM to operate and simply didn't get converted to Amiga, so rather than attempt separate conversions for each one, trying to get a fast enough rudimentary TOS/GEM emulation running where it can run at an acceptable pace on a 68000 Amiga is the goal.

I might well employ a patch system to go with it because I know theres a lot of ST software/games that quite happily run using TOS functions to run, but insist on directly banging the hardware instead of using a system call to perform the same function, which will hopefully expand on what can be used.

Its all conjecture at the moment, i'm writing the relocator for the TOS so it will run in Amiga memory, and then comes the hard work of actually getting it up and running.

Well, thats the plan anyway :)

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 10:24 am

ijor wrote:I have been away from the scene for a couple of year, so somebody will correct me if I missed something ...

But I don't recall seeing, a full, comprehensive, complete, ready to re assemble TOS source. Note, btw, that most of TOS was originally in "C" language, not in assembler.

Portion were disassembled, of course, mainly the low level Bios. As a matter of fact, it was done back at the day. The famous book "ATARI ST INTERNALS" included full disassemble of the TOS 1.0 Bios. The full book is available online.

We also have partial original ATARI sources, as somebody posted a link above. But they are not complete, and they are for a much later version (don't recall which one).

TOS 1.2, as all the pre STe TOS versions, "live" at 0xfc0000, and is 192K.

... so that all of the games that didn't make it to the Amiga but are TOS/GEM/BIOS


Just out of curiosity, did you made a research about how many such games exist?


Thanks, I figured out the base address in the end :)

It also makes a reference to $fa0000 as well.

As for researching the total games using TOS/GEM, answer is no I haven't. There was an early attempt at an ST emulator back in the day, but it was so slow as to be unusable, EMUTOS isn't designed for a lowly A500, so I thought i'd have a crack at doing something that would be able to do the early stuff without being like a snail.

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby Anima » Sun May 29, 2016 1:52 pm

galahad wrote:Then intention is to redo TOS 1.02 and have it work as fast as possible on a 68000 Amiga, so that all of the games that didn't make it to the Amiga but are TOS/GEM/BIOS dependent have a good chance of working, either that, or I have to write a custom mini TOS system so that it can run these games at as full speed as is humanly possible.

What about writing a special Trap handler which redirects TOS calls to the appropriate Amiga OS (Amiga DOS) functions?

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby ijor » Sun May 29, 2016 3:19 pm

galahad wrote:Thanks, I figured out the base address in the end :)
It also makes a reference to $fa0000 as well.


$fa0000 is the cartridge space. Not the built-in ROM.

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 3:42 pm

ijor wrote:
galahad wrote:Thanks, I figured out the base address in the end :)
It also makes a reference to $fa0000 as well.


$fa0000 is the cartridge space. Not the built-in ROM.


Awesome thanks for that, wondered what that check in the ROM code was for :)

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 3:44 pm

Anima wrote:
galahad wrote:Then intention is to redo TOS 1.02 and have it work as fast as possible on a 68000 Amiga, so that all of the games that didn't make it to the Amiga but are TOS/GEM/BIOS dependent have a good chance of working, either that, or I have to write a custom mini TOS system so that it can run these games at as full speed as is humanly possible.

What about writing a special Trap handler which redirects TOS calls to the appropriate Amiga OS (Amiga DOS) functions?


Its an incredible amount of work, whereas its easier to physically have the TOS rom in memory do all the hard work, and simply patch the routines that specifically need to be converted to make Amiga parameters valid for TOS, like redoing writing to colour registers, or the screen redraw routine etc.

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby joska » Sun May 29, 2016 3:57 pm

galahad wrote:EMUTOS isn't designed for a lowly A500


Why do you think so? EmuTOS is running perfectly on an 8MHz ST here, so why shouldn't the superior Amiga keep up? ;) Especially since the only games you'll get running are games that's 100% AES/VDI based.

Seriously, the only reason for *not* using EmuTOS for this is if you really enjoying disassembling a 192Kb binary, trying to understand what everything does.
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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 4:28 pm

joska wrote:
galahad wrote:EMUTOS isn't designed for a lowly A500


Why do you think so? EmuTOS is running perfectly on an 8MHz ST here, so why shouldn't the superior Amiga keep up? ;) Especially since the only games you'll get running are games that's 100% AES/VDI based.

Seriously, the only reason for *not* using EmuTOS for this is if you really enjoying disassembling a 192Kb binary, trying to understand what everything does.


Because its simply not.... this is a fact, the A500 was NEVER a consideration for EMUTos.

EMUTos works fine on ST because its coded to utilise the ST's graphic display format, whilst the Amiga is superior, its hardware is of little benefit when it has to realtime convert the entire screen, it has to rely on its 68000 processor, so its hampered right from the off.

As far as i'm aware, unless EMUTos on the Amiga has been altered in the past year, its still only in monochrome as the author couldn't figure out how to support 16 colour mode with the Amigas hardware.

And the beauty of using an original TOS rom is I don't have to understand *everything*, I only need to convert some code, which is infinitely quicker than rewriting ALL the code.

1). interpret mouse events
2). interpret screen redraw
3). interpret audio events
4). interpret disk events

This is being done to see if it can be done, and if it adds a few more titles to the Amigas library of games, then great, if its too much for an A500 to handle at a decent speed, c'est la vie, i'll lose no sleep over it.

And the entire point of this exercise is precisely to job lot convert the system compliant games on the ST that the Amiga didn't get, as i'm sure there are plenty of decent ones worth peoples time. And for the ones that are mostly system compliant but for the odd hardware banging bit of code, I can create a patch system that patches the relevant programs on the fly to redirect to system compliant methods.

Assuming this all works of course ;)

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby Anima » Sun May 29, 2016 4:43 pm

galahad wrote:Its an incredible amount of work, whereas its easier to physically have the TOS rom in memory do all the hard work, and simply patch the routines that specifically need to be converted to make Amiga parameters valid for TOS, like redoing writing to colour registers, or the screen redraw routine etc.

No it isn't, because you only need to emulate the desired functions on the highest level without knowing any hardware details or whatever.

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 5:49 pm

Anima wrote:
galahad wrote:Its an incredible amount of work, whereas its easier to physically have the TOS rom in memory do all the hard work, and simply patch the routines that specifically need to be converted to make Amiga parameters valid for TOS, like redoing writing to colour registers, or the screen redraw routine etc.

No it isn't, because you only need to emulate the desired functions on the highest level without knowing any hardware details or whatever.


Sorry, just not true, take it from someone thats done it before and succeeded ;)

I intend to handle this conversion the exact same way I tackled converting Where Time Stood Still, Starquake and Recoil from ST to Amiga, and I can assure you, my way is most definitely quicker than re-inventing the wheel by rewriting the individual graphic routines, it may not be the quickest as in processing speed, but i'm doing this for fun, i'm not getting paid to do it ;)

Like I said, individually rewriting TOS's routines to be specifically Amiga is an incredible amount of work, instead I can let TOS/Gem do its thing, and then simply realtime convert the built ST screen to something the Amiga can display in much less effort.

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby Anima » Sun May 29, 2016 5:55 pm

galahad wrote:Sorry, just not true, take it from someone thats done it before and succeeded ;)

So you really need a proof? :roll:

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby troed » Sun May 29, 2016 6:16 pm

galahad wrote:And my reasoning for saying it would be too simplistic for Amiga owners is also objectively true.


Either you want to play Super Sprint or you don't. That want is no different for someone playing a single-player game on ST or Amiga.

/Troed

(I'm quite confused as to why you're under the impression it's easier to convert screen drawing code in a game from ST 4 bpl to Amiga compared to TOS screen drawing code)

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 6:16 pm

Anima wrote:
galahad wrote:Sorry, just not true, take it from someone thats done it before and succeeded ;)

So you really need a proof? :roll:


I have the proof with the results I have already achieved.

Not really interested in discussing it further with you, you seem intent on conflict, and I won't play your game. :cheers:

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Re: Resourced TOS Rom

Postby galahad » Sun May 29, 2016 6:21 pm

troed wrote:
galahad wrote:And my reasoning for saying it would be too simplistic for Amiga owners is also objectively true.


Either you want to play Super Sprint or you don't. That want is no different for someone playing a single-player game on ST or Amiga.

/Troed

(I'm quite confused as to why you're under the impression it's easier to convert screen drawing code in a game from ST 4 bpl to Amiga compared to TOS screen drawing code)



Single player Super Sprint versus 2x Computer opponents is not the same as Super Sprint three player vs 3 human opponents, I think we can all agree on that.

And it was the single player experience I found lacking, and because of this, I stopped working on it, as most Amiga users would only play it as single player vs 2x computer opponents.

Had the Amiga gotten a conversion of Super Sprint closer to the ST's release, I have no doubt it would be as highly regarded.

Unless you're contending differently that Super Sprint single player is as great as 3 player?

As for your confusion, don't be confused. Why should I rewrite ALL TOS drawing routines when I can write ONE routine that will capture ALL redraw changes on the ST screen and convert to Amiga display?

Are you still confused?
Last edited by galahad on Sun May 29, 2016 6:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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