Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Troubles with your machine? Just want to speak about the latest improvements? This is the place!

Moderators: Mug UK, Zorro 2, Greenious, spiny, Moderator Team

User avatar
qq1975b
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1077
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 9:15 am
Location: Barcelona

Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby qq1975b » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:50 pm

New accelerator board for the A600 based on FPGA incluiding video enhancements and >68060 cpu power:

http://www.kipper2k.com/accel600.html

It seems impressive....

What do you think?
Trying to learn...

joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 4377
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby joska » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:54 pm

qq1975b wrote:What do you think?


I think that my A600 will get a lot faster in the near future :)
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Firebee - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64

User avatar
Cyprian
10 GOTO 10
10 GOTO 10
Posts: 1686
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2002 11:23 am
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby Cyprian » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:35 pm

cool accelerator but on wrong machine.
Unfortunately due to cuted BEER/VPA/VMA/E/FCn signals it doesn't support a real 68000 machine - ST.
V600_CPU.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Lynx II / Jaugar / TT030 / Mega STe / 800 XL / 1040 STe / Falcon030 / 65 XE / 520 STm / SM124 / SC1435
SDrive / PAK68/3 / Lynx Multi Card / LDW Super 2000 / XCA12 / SkunkBoard / CosmosEx / SatanDisk / UltraSatan / USB Floppy Drive Emulator / Eiffel / SIO2PC / Crazy Dots / PAM Net
Hatari / Steem SSE / Aranym / Saint
http://260ste.appspot.com/

User avatar
alexh
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2731
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:52 pm
Location: UK - Oxford
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby alexh » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:23 pm

There's no need for accelerators on Atari ST is there?

All the existing ones do AFAIK is break software compatibility. Because so many effects on ST games and demos rely on cycle accuracy this type of accelerator is not much use is it?

Maybe the Apollo core would be of interest as an Atari Falcon accelerator?

rpineau
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:39 am
Location: California / USA
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby rpineau » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:32 pm

Last time me and exxos talk to these guys about making one for Atari and helping us with our accelerator they were not too interested and just wanted to sale their current board as is. May be if there is enough demand they might do one. And as Alex says, probably better for a Falcon (68060 at high frequency) if their claim of emulating up to the the 68060 is not fake.
As it's becoming hard to find CPU for accelerator (68020 in my case, even the 68030 are not easy to find besides some Chinese source on eBay so you don't really know what you get), it could be interesting to get a 680x0 in a FPGA as a CPU replacement.
Falcon + AB040 + Eclipse PCI + ATI Rage VGA card + NE2000 Ethernec + HxC Floppy Emulator
MegaSTE 4MB + CosmosEx / 1040 STF for hardware dev
http://www.rti-zone.org/atari.php

joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 4377
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby joska » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:11 pm

alexh wrote:All the existing ones do AFAIK is break software compatibility. Because so many effects on ST games and demos rely on cycle accuracy this type of accelerator is not much use is it?


If all you use your ST for is to play games and watch demos then you don't need an accelerator. Or harddrive. Or more than 1Mb RAM.
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Firebee - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64

User avatar
alexh
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2731
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:52 pm
Location: UK - Oxford
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby alexh » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:31 pm

joska wrote:If all you use your ST for is to play games and watch demos then you don't need an accelerator. Or harddrive. Or more than 1Mb RAM.

Lots of demo's need 4Mbyte and what are you going to keep them on floppy disks? Hard drive is essential.

User avatar
Cyprian
10 GOTO 10
10 GOTO 10
Posts: 1686
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2002 11:23 am
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby Cyprian » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:55 pm

joska wrote:If all you use your ST for is to play games and watch demos then you don't need an accelerator. Or harddrive. Or more than 1Mb RAM.

actually, there are some games which need more power. E.g. Lotus III which is rendered in 3frames. The same story with newschool demos.

Interesting feature of Vampire is its 68000 emulation. Thanks to that application which doesn't like newest processors like 030/060 should work properly.
Lynx II / Jaugar / TT030 / Mega STe / 800 XL / 1040 STe / Falcon030 / 65 XE / 520 STm / SM124 / SC1435
SDrive / PAK68/3 / Lynx Multi Card / LDW Super 2000 / XCA12 / SkunkBoard / CosmosEx / SatanDisk / UltraSatan / USB Floppy Drive Emulator / Eiffel / SIO2PC / Crazy Dots / PAM Net
Hatari / Steem SSE / Aranym / Saint
http://260ste.appspot.com/

User avatar
alexh
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2731
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:52 pm
Location: UK - Oxford
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby alexh » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:07 pm

Cyprian wrote:actually, there are some games which need more power. E.g. Lotus III which is rendered in 3frames. The same story with newschool demos.

I don't think they would work if they had more power though.

Cyprian wrote:Thanks to that application which doesn't like newest processors like 030/060 should work properly.

While I think that is true. They could change (perhaps not on the fly) to 68000 mode. But the compatibility for Atari programs is cycle accuracy which Apollo won't have today. Not being cycle accurate is where Apollo gets a lot of it's speed from.

But yes, I can imagine in the future they could add that ability. Choose an option, re-boot and it goes to standard 8MHz 68000 cycle accurate mode. But I imagine it will require a lot of work.

joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 4377
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby joska » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 pm

alexh wrote:Lots of demo's need 4Mbyte and what are you going to keep them on floppy disks? Hard drive is essential.


Exactly. Demos has been made for extra hardware. Why wouldn't they make demos for a Vampire-like accelerator too? Just look at the Falcon-scene, where there's a lot of CT6x-demos. A €150 superfast accelerator would for sure sell well and be a very interesting target for demomakers.

Of course, you must be able to switch back to the original 8MHz 68000 for compatibility.
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Firebee - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64

User avatar
qq1975b
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1077
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 9:15 am
Location: Barcelona

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby qq1975b » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:29 pm

It seems it will add advanced graphics and audio features in the future too. Picasso96 is a standard on gfx cards for Amiga...don't know about the 16 bit audio kipper says.
Trying to learn...

User avatar
DarkLord
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:06 pm
Location: Prestonsburg, KY - USA
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby DarkLord » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:13 am

Oddly enough, almost all the hard drive adapted games from Dbug, Klaz, and PPera
work great on my 40mhz, 68030 powered Pak 68/3 board in my STacy. They are also
much more enjoyable because of reduced loading times, screens, etc. 3D games are
much better, example Elite, Elite 2.

So perhaps there is room for accelerators on the ST after all, eh? :)
Welcome To DarkForce! http://www.darkforce.org "The Fuji Lives.!"
Atari SW/HW based BBS - Telnet:darkforce-bbs.dyndns.org 520

Silly_Pony
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:18 pm

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby Silly_Pony » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:52 pm

alexh wrote:There's no need for accelerators on Atari ST is there?

All the existing ones do AFAIK is break software compatibility.


All the existing ones do is make software faster. If that is a problem for you, you are the problem.
1040STe, 1040STf

AlexSTE
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:11 pm
Location: California / USA
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby AlexSTE » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:57 am

If I might say something. I just got back into all Atari, Amiga stuff. And I can tell you, first thing I looked at are memory, graphic card upgrades and accelerators. It is essential to have good accelerator for ST or Amiga, they just improve these machines so much, accelerator is a must same as network adapter or extra ram.
Plus all the possibilities with extra speed FreeMint, multitasking... Another thing is graphic cards, 640x400 does not do much these days, even if you want to have comfortable desktop and be able to just browse internet for stuff your Atari needs you need more than just high res on STE for example. You can't do it without accelerator and graphic card.
BTW. Great job on Vampire 2. I am thinking about buying Amiga 600 because of that accelerator.
[b] I am looking for: Atari TT030. Panther2 board, Magnum TTram board[/b]
Currently have: Atari 1040 STF, Atari 1040 STE Ultrasatan, MonSTEr board, Scart with HD to HDMI converter, IDE to CF, IDE DVD in external enclosure. 5 IBM/Lenovo Thinkpads. HP Chromebook. Custom AMD race SIM rig. Custom AMD Hackintosh. Apple Powermac G5 2x2.7GHz watercooled PPC.

User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2287
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: STara Pazova, Serbia
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby calimero » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:59 am

qq1975b wrote:It seems it will add advanced graphics and audio features in the future too. Picasso96 is a standard on gfx cards for Amiga...don't know about the 16 bit audio kipper says.

Maybe they could add and ethernet support? Or they did not bother since Amiga 600 have PCMCIA slot for network cards...?
and Atari would not benefit from SAGA (AGA emulation on Vampire) at all, somebody would need to implement e.g. SuperVidel into Vampire... :D

AlexSTE wrote:Another thing is graphic cards, 640x400 does not do much these days, even if you want to have comfortable desktop and be able to just browse internet for stuff your Atari needs you need more than just high res on STE for example. You can't do it without accelerator and graphic card.

forget browsing internet on Atari. Try browsing todays bloatware internet with Pentium 100MHz; it is same speed as fastest Atari accelerator today (CT63 / 68060 100MHz). Vampire will have roughly same speed at 100MHz simple is not enough for all junk technology that is internet today.

rpineau wrote:And as Alex says, probably better for a Falcon (68060 at high frequency) if their claim of emulating up to the the 68060 is not fake.

Vampire does not emulate 68060 CPU or 68060 instructions! They emulate only 68000 but very, very fast :)
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

AlexSTE
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:11 pm
Location: California / USA
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby AlexSTE » Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:49 pm

Calimero.
I was only talking about simple browsing for Atari, Amiga stuff, not using it for general internet. Like for example if you would want to check this forum on Atari, would you rather have nice high resolution with accelerator or factory low res on stock STE? That's why I think graphic card upgrades and accelerators are awesome.
It's like with SD card adapters or Compact Flash. Sure they are not as fast compare to Mac or PC. But you know what I still rather use them than swapping floppies all day. Same applies to accelerators and graphic card adapters. It's just convenience thing.
[b] I am looking for: Atari TT030. Panther2 board, Magnum TTram board[/b]
Currently have: Atari 1040 STF, Atari 1040 STE Ultrasatan, MonSTEr board, Scart with HD to HDMI converter, IDE to CF, IDE DVD in external enclosure. 5 IBM/Lenovo Thinkpads. HP Chromebook. Custom AMD race SIM rig. Custom AMD Hackintosh. Apple Powermac G5 2x2.7GHz watercooled PPC.

User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2287
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: STara Pazova, Serbia
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby calimero » Sat Jan 02, 2016 5:09 pm

AlexSTE wrote:Calimero.
I was only talking about simple browsing for Atari, Amiga stuff, not using it for general internet. Like for example if you would want to check this forum on Atari, would you rather have nice high resolution with accelerator or factory low res on stock STE? That's why I think graphic card upgrades and accelerators are awesome.

Netsurf on Atari Falcon with SuperVidel graphics card and 68060 at 75MHz, 256MB SD-RAM will take about minute to load this forum.
Acceleration and graphics card are awesome for old computers but today modern internet is simple bloatware that demand GHz class CPU :(
For simple web sites stuff 100MHz could be sufficient.

AlexSTE wrote:It's like with SD card adapters or Compact Flash. Sure they are not as fast compare to Mac or PC.

Good comparison. But keep in mind that Atari programs and games did not grow over time to ten or thousands megabytes in size but rather few MB at most so 5 MB/s is GREAT speed for Atari stuff. Internet technology requirements grown beyond any sane level in last 10-15 years.

Sorry for my rant but I simple want to explain to not expect, from Amiga or Atari with accelerator, to be fast enough for modern web browsing.
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

AlexSTE
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:11 pm
Location: California / USA
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby AlexSTE » Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:11 pm

As I said, "simple browsing". Maybe forum was a bad example. Of course none of modern stuff will work. No JAVA, heavy graphics etc. I thought that was obvious.
I mean seriously, even if you can google something on your atari, access other computer to transfer floppy image, or check news group that's already an achievement. It's actually amazing that you can do it at all.
[b] I am looking for: Atari TT030. Panther2 board, Magnum TTram board[/b]
Currently have: Atari 1040 STF, Atari 1040 STE Ultrasatan, MonSTEr board, Scart with HD to HDMI converter, IDE to CF, IDE DVD in external enclosure. 5 IBM/Lenovo Thinkpads. HP Chromebook. Custom AMD race SIM rig. Custom AMD Hackintosh. Apple Powermac G5 2x2.7GHz watercooled PPC.

vido
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 686
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:39 pm

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby vido » Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:47 am

I dont think browsing on the high end Ataris with NetSurf are that bad. Here you can see an example of browsing with NetSurf on the FireBee.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q6t_Jerv7c
FireBee is still faster as Vampire accelerator but I guess not that much. And latest versions of NetSurf are even a bit faster and renders better as the one in this video. Latest NetSurf also have javascript support but Atari version is compiled without it. We should ask m0n0 if it is possible to make NetSurf compilable with javascript support? I hope he is still willing to work a bit on the NetSurf port.

Anyway ... I wanted to say browsing on the high end Ataris with Netsurf is usable to me. I browse it daily the Atari forums. So if Vampire would be built with faster FPGA it would be aso as much usable or even more.

User avatar
Eero Tamminen
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1951
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:11 pm

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:24 pm

I wouldn't bother with JavaScript. It's slow without good JIT, I doubt there's JIT support for m68k/coldfire, and even if there were, JS + JIT would gobble huge amounts of memory on top of everything else the pages take.

I've been involved in optimizing browsers for phones and 1GB is about minimum amount of RAM for reasonably usable browsing of modern www-pages with JS...

User avatar
shoggoth
Nature
Nature
Posts: 970
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:21 am
Location: Halmstad, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby shoggoth » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:06 pm

My main reason for wanting a fast Atari, is to make my shitty code run fast.
Ain't no space like PeP-space.

joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 4377
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby joska » Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:37 pm

I've had "fast" Ataris since the late 90's. Afterburnered Falcon with graphics card, TT with graphics card, Milan040/060 and finally a Firebee. Forget about using these for mainstream work and entertainment. They are just too slow and not nearly sophisticated enough for this. And you really can't use them for what most people used their Atari for in the first place (games and demos) because almost no games or demos handles anything but stock hardware. I use my "fast" Ataris for coding and some occasional word processing, but have a selection of ST's for gaming, demos, testing etc.

I think the approach used in the Vampire accelerator is very good. It's basically a very fast 68000, so you don't have the compatibility issues that 020-060 (not to mention Coldfire!) machines has. I rarely use my Amigas but I'm seriously thinking about getting a Vampire 2 for my A600 and start using it more. That's the kind of hardware where AmigaOS/Workbench starts showing what it's good for.
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Firebee - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64

vido
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 686
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:39 pm

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby vido » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:46 am

I dont get why compatibility is so important when we are talking about high end Ataris, Amigas, ...?
If you want to play old games and other software which are coded for old and "slow" hardware, you just use old an slow hardware or emulator.
I guess high end Ataris are designed for new of ported software which would take the benefit of faster CPU, better graphics, ... And for that software you have sources so you can compile it for new cpu and graphic.
Sure, there you have old software which can use more CPU power and more RAM as text editor (Papyrus, Callamus, ...) or some rendering software. But for games and some other software ... why?!?

High end Ataris mostly lach the support of community (developers) to be more usable.
The same would be also for the Vampire. Usable to play Doom and other ported software ...

joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 4377
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby joska » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:14 am

vido wrote:High end Ataris mostly lach the support of community (developers) to be more usable.


Correct. The hardware is much to slow, and the OS is not sophisticated and stable enough for modern, ported software.

vido wrote:The same would be also for the Vampire. Usable to play Doom and other ported software ...


Not correct :) An accelerator like this would not suffer from the same compatibility issues as current accelerators/clones, so it would be perfect to run existing, "heavy" software really really fast. E.g. you can compile C-programs faster than on any clone using PureC, and still be able to use the debugger without the annoying little (and often not-so-little) issues you'll experience on a 060. Or 030 for that matter.
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Firebee - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64

User avatar
alexh
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2731
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:52 pm
Location: UK - Oxford
Contact:

Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby alexh » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:47 am

calimero wrote:Vampire does not emulate 68060 CPU or 68060 instructions! They emulate only 68000 but very, very fast :)

That is not true any more they emulate 68EC040 ISA with FPU (i.e. no MMU)

Silly_Pony wrote:All the existing ones [accelerators] do is make software faster. If that is a problem for you, you are the problem.

Exactly. They make them faster. But graphical Atari programs (especially demos and very technical games) are written so the programs sync to the screen. You make the programs faster they don't sync to the screen and you get errors.

DarkLord wrote:almost all the hard drive adapted games from Dbug, Klaz, and PPera work great on my 40mhz, 68030 powered Pak 68/3 board in my STacy.

Interesting. So while adding TT030/Falcon030 compatibility they have added generic compatibility for 030 processors. So if the Apollo core could be configured to be an 030 then it may have a place on the Atari ST.

DarkLord wrote:3D games are much better, example Elite, Elite 2.

Interesting. Most 3D games which are patched for faster processors do not benefit from the extra CPU power. They just spend most of their time waiting.


Social Media

     

Return to “Hardware”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests