Monitor question - modern or authentic?

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Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby AtariLikerMan0 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:51 pm

I ask myself: Switchbox to toggle between mono monitor and colour TV, replacement colour Atari monitor or gubbins to run the ST pictures through my PC's VGA.




Ebay has bits galore, at reasonable prices for any choice. But for your money, which route would you go down and why?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=a ... ur+monitor

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Monitor-Maste ... 1e7285a503

Scroll down a bit for PC options I was looking at: http://www.remix64.com/board/viewtopic. ... 221#p91221




(And I might have one of these as well, while I'm at it: http://pest.atari.org/ )

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby spiny » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:04 am

Original CRT monitor gives the best 'feeling' for me :) I have a real atari mono monitor and a Philips CM8833 for colour stuff.
I also have a scan doubler that works very well, but isn't as 'warm' somehow as using a real screen :D

if space was an issue I'd put the CRTs in storage and stick with a flatscreen.

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby AtariLikerMan0 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:43 pm

I do agree that it looks like a 'real' computer through its hi-res mono monitor. An old real computer, like I used to see at school. And it smells of attics as well.

I'll be going with the VGA, not least because my local Dawsons music shop threw out several quality flatscreens during their renovation. Gotta use 'em!

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby calimero » Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:15 pm

spiny wrote:Original CRT monitor gives the best 'feeling' for me :) I have a real atari mono monitor and a Philips CM8833 for colour stuff.
I also have a scan doubler that works very well, but isn't as 'warm' somehow as using a real screen :D

if space was an issue I'd put the CRTs in storage and stick with a flatscreen.

same here!

...only Commodore 1084 instead of Philips ;)

also try other combination but real thing is real thing :) (even it is blurry after 20 years :D)
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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby thorsten_guenther » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:31 pm

If you are able to find one, some Commodore and Acorn AKF (50?) monitors, along with the Eizo 9060S, NEC Multisync (original, GS, II and 3D) and Mitsubishi EUM models will even display all three resolutions (I use an EUM-1491A on my ST).

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby calimero » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:58 pm

thorsten_guenther wrote:If you are able to find one, some Commodore and Acorn AKF (50?) monitors, along with the Eizo 9060S, NEC Multisync (original, GS, II and 3D) and Mitsubishi EUM models will even display all three resolutions (I use an EUM-1491A on my ST).

how you can get mono resolution on multisync monitor?

so any 15KHz SVGA monitor from this list could display ST High resolution??

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby thorsten_guenther » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:14 pm

Yes, any model capable of syncing from 15 to 30 kHz horizontally and 50 to 72 Hz vertically is cabaple of displaying all three resolutions and run both "PAL" and "NTSC" games. You only need a switchbox with a single input, a single output (OK, additional audio output would be nice) and a switch for "mono detect". These were sold by many manufacturers back in the days, but are easy to manufacture if you can buy a DIN13 plug where you live.

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby calimero » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:57 pm

thanx!

this is also good site to see if monitor support 15KHz - http://www.monitorworld.com/monitors_home.html
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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby MrMaddog » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:48 am

If you feel you want an authentic monitor to match your authentic vintage computer, go for it...

But sure that you're still able to get one not only to buy, but also to replace in case the electronics wear out on it. Still it's amazing that 20 year old ST's can run good while 5 year old PC's crap out...

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby wongck » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:34 am

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby DarkLord » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:58 am

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby AtariLikerMan0 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:38 pm

No mystery really. Ever more complex technology, ever smaller spaces, ever cheaper costs. Three factors which are both problems of, and solutions to, Mankind's unreasonable technical wants. Ever more unreasonable.


You want top-heavy specs at (comparatively) sherbet-dab prices? That's OK, just expect your machine to fall over at some point, especially as it's now the centre of your personal universe. Want to mix that video spectacular on the train? OK, but you'll may as well upgrade the ever-rocketing spec demands in a year or two anyway.


That's why your old crappy Spectrum still sits pretty on your coffee table while your new mega PC suffers executive burnout.


Your solution - get a refurbished office PC. Certainly, they're not quite as warp-drivey as the latest gear but God almighty, fashionable machines of five years ago were still erotically good! And the office ones are the clunkier tanks which'll outlast your flashy sports models by aeons.

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby Shredder11 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:55 pm

I recently bought my first ever laptop, well two to be precise (been looking and waiting since 2004!) but did I buy a brand new glossy £500 Acer model or similar brand? Nope, I got two IBM Thinkpads from Ebay for £70 each, one a x60s 1702-YAB and the other a z61p 9452-3NG. They are both circa 2008 approx and I am blissfully happy with them and what they can do, plus they both knock the shiny glossy new laptops into a tin hat! Sadly they also do not make Thinkpads to this build quality anymore, hence why I went with something older.

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby AtariLikerMan0 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:02 pm

Of course not all new ones are rubbish, just the stock-'em-high kind people usually buy only because the salesman says their old ones are suddenly crap. The brand names with the flashy ad campaigns.


But looked after, a PC can now outlive the old life expectancies. A case in point - maybe 5 years ago I found an eight year-old PC put by the roadside for rubbish collection. It all worked fine and all it had on it was some mother and daughter's Microsoft Office programs and other simple bits. Why would they chuck that out so soon unless they were bullshitted into buying the latest five minute wonder?

2012 and it still works, albeit with a changed case and PSUs. It's great for studio work and I enjoy messing about with it to this day. I do love it when some of them just refuse to die because they were (maybe) accidentally built too well.

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby DarkLord » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:03 pm

Good example.

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby wongck » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:22 pm

The video card of my 6 year old work horse PC died after 3 years 1 month.
So its now on the 2nd garphics card, which is twice as powerful at more than half the price of the 1st one.
It's now very near the 3 years mark.... we see if it too dies soon.

Shredder11 wrote: got two IBM Thinkpads from Ebay for £70 each, one a x60s 1702-YAB and the other a z61p 9452-3NG.

At work, we replaced all our T60/61 and X60 last 2 years ago. :mrgreen:
As they are used at work daily, they sure are very worn out so it's not worth taking. :wink:
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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby AtariLikerMan0 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:15 am

If there is inbuilt obsolescence then you end up winning by upgrading your kit - faster RAM, bigger capacity hard drive, you name it.

But I think part of the reason the manufacturers can get away with flimsy products is also because PCs aren't sold as PCs. PCs are binary controlled engines of various modular systems somehow working in balance. Windows juggles them all for you but they're still a universe of complexity in a beige case. Joe Public's sold them as any other appliance and he expects to behave with them accordingly.

First sign of trouble, your average punter panics because he may not understand just what's happening. A store can mend it for him, selling him needless extras along the way maybe but he still wants a simple and instant fix as he would with his fridge or oven. Computers need sending back, unless out of warranty in which case he needs to fix it himself. Which the average guy usually can't, even if simply a question of re-installing Windows or putting more RAM in for a faster ride. (And if he pays to sort those, he pays.)

So when the next thing goes wrong, like a fragmented hard disk causing trouble, he just says 'stuff it' and goes back to PC World or Dixons, to repeat the whole wretched process again. If something's wrong, change the whole thing.



Image

Still, good for me when finding these PCs at the side of the road - or at least I did before the recession. Hopefully more people aren't so quick to part with their money and solve simple problems instead now.

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby Shredder11 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:08 pm

wongck wrote:
Shredder11 wrote: got two IBM Thinkpads from Ebay for £70 each, one a x60s 1702-YAB and the other a z61p 9452-3NG.

At work, we replaced all our T60/61 and X60 last 2 years ago. :mrgreen:
As they are used at work daily, they sure are very worn out so it's not worth taking. :wink:


My x60s is in almost mint condition with no faded shiny keys or cracks / scratches and the screen is perfect. Cost me £68 all said and done and came with 160GB drive and 2GB RAM and a PSU (just a chinese clone though). My sister shortly after seeing mine, bought an x61s for my mum and that is in even better condition...like new and has the WWAN antenna; fingerprint reader and Bluetooth. However my z61p laptop has had the proverbial poo kicked out of it prior to me buying it, mostly broken casing and worn keys and trackpad; luckily everything works perfectly and performs superbly. It was sods law that a mint looking z61p came on Ebay a week or two later, although it cost £40 more but did have a more powerful CPU (Core 2 Duo T7200...mine has Core Duo T2500).

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby wongck » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:06 pm

Because of the rubberised metallic matt finishing that the T-series and X-series used, they tend to have lots of markings on them.
Most of the issues the workplace faced was actually the LCD screen having vertical lines on it, being the ribbon connector giving way, rather than having cracked LCD nor the casing being cracked. I guess given the proper cleaning solution, the markings on the case top etc can be reconditioned and cleaned.

Great that you got a nice notebook.
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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby AtariLikerMan0 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:15 pm

You don't necessarily need the 'proper' stuff, even for damage. I've fixed up case gashes with a touch of spray paint and turps-soaked tissues a good few times and it always seems to work.

Even the nastier scratches on LCD screens themselves can be repaired with black spray on a cotton bud to line the gauge, before wiping over with the turps tissue, water tissue and a dry one after.

And believe it or not, repairs are seamless and transparent.

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby KLund1 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:53 am

Just a thought, but the subject question is still to be answered.

I would prefer a modern flat-screen that works, and looks like an authentic monitor. Without the weight and depth issues!
One can paint a 4:3 monitor to match. But finding one with buttons to match ST design would be difficult.

But, let's just look at any ANY 4:3 monitor that will work in ST color. By my count, it ZERO (+-1). There have been several attempts to make an easy plug and play adapter, though none have worked, nor available. You can buy a converter, and a lot of conversion cables, but in the end result tends to be fuzzy at best from general known reports here.

So it seems that ST users are stuck in a 12"color world, or big as you want BLACK AND WHITE 1950'S world. Then again, one can live in emulation world where the sky is is the limit. But emulation has had it's limits, so real hardware seems to be the best.

So what are we hobbyist's to do? We have been waiting for a lllllloonnnngggg time for a flat screen solution. STEEM or real with 12"
I'll stick with my Falcon on a 24", but this is not everyone cure. I would like my 520, without a disk drive, to work nicely on a 19" 4:3 flatscreen.

sorry, just a thought...
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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby joska » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:02 am

I don't see the problem. Buy a small flatscreen TV with a SCART-connector and a VGA-connector. Display ST low/med via SCART, and ST-high via VGA. Problem solved :)
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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby Shredder11 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:59 am

True joska but there were some long topics on this back in 2009 with only partial solutions at best.

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby AtariLikerMan0 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:18 pm

Here's my partial solution at best:



This hi-res VGA apparently works flawlessly. I saw a Youtube vid on it and that's all the cast-iron proof I need.

Image

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ATARI-ST-VGA- ... 0526274539



And this VGA converter from the ST lo-res video out does a splendid job in my experience: http://www.mini9ssd.com/product_info.ph ... ucts_id=40



Well I'm game. It wouldn't quite be Steem-level sharpness but that's just in the way lower-res signals present themselves on monitors too good for them. But more than good enough however.


__________________________

Or, if you want something classier, these suggest themselves. I haven't used these though:

RGB-VGA, apparently good for Amiga and Atari: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/15Khz-RGB-YUV ... 484611c041



Image

Amiga VGA: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Commodore-Ami ... 19d5a6647d

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Re: Monitor question - modern or authentic?

Postby Shredder11 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:40 pm

Back in 2009 I bought a Supera Color HD (later added another one), along with a switchbox and a few accessories. The links below show info and photos of this setup with one of my STE machines with the colour modes; I did not show the monochrome modes as they display even better quality than the colour mode, and at the time the challenge was to achieve the same with colour. As you can also see, there is no problem with any black letterbox borders or non-centred images.

http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17488&hilit=Supera+Color+HD&start=25#p156753 *** CTX 19" LCD TFT 4:3 monitor ***

http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17488&hilit=Supera+Color+HD&start=50#p157363 *** CTX 17" CRT 4:3 monitor ***


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