GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

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GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby Anemos » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:53 am

Well.. here is my solution with exactly materials and a little mod on board.. i hope working for all people,s !
The schematic is same but, "exactly type"capacitor is type: (Metal polyester capacitor 0.47 UF,63V) (pic1)
You can found it:
CAP FLM .47UF 63V POLY MKT RAD
like this: http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/157240 ... dq60j.html
(I have to use the type : PHILIPS 0.47/20/63 MKT 344 HQ )

new schem 8220.png


The board mod : bridge the capacitor C33 that seen on (pic2)

bridge c33.jpg


Also, I want to mention that my converter had from the beginning a problem, some pins in the CPU had detached, and stuck with fresh solder using ,solder, cream flex, and copper cable suction for cleaning.(pic 3)
So if you do not work and this mod, maybe you should check thoroughly all the solders of the board.
G/L to all!

resolder chip.jpg
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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby DrCoolZic » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:40 pm

Thanks
What are the reasons for the capacitor strap?
I mean the C33 bridge on the board ;)
Last edited by DrCoolZic on Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby Hippy Dave » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:20 pm

The 0.47uF capacitor creates an AC short-circuit between the
horizontal sync and vertical sync on the Atari computer.
This is Not good.
Here is a link to good information. Read it. Figure it out. Use it.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/scart.htm

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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby Silly_Pony » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:06 am

That capacitor is literally useless. I've got one of these boards + hooked it up to my st and it works no different with or without it.
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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby Methanoid » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:00 pm

So, we use the earlier schematic to make up cable?

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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby Silly_Pony » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:25 pm

You'll need the sync buffer circuit from here:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17153&start=100#p203262

This will make a stable composite sync with no judder/roll or shorting of the atari itself.
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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby DrCoolZic » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:57 am

Silly_Pony wrote:You'll need the sync buffer circuit from here:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17153&start=100#p203262

This will make a stable composite sync with no judder/roll or shorting of the atari itself.


You can avoid this circuitry as the signal is generated in the Atari STE.
If you look at the STE schematic http://info-coach.fr/atari/hardware/video.php#schematic you will see that the composite signal is available in circuit U209A as well as its complement on U211C but unfortunately it is not available on the video connector. :(

The signal on pin 2 is what you need if you have an RF modulator (MC1377 output) but is garbage on a system without RF modulator (it combines vsync and hsync but not the way we want)

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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby 1st1 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:30 pm

Why making composite sync, if both devices have separated vertical and horicontal sync?
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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby 1024MAK » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:16 pm

1st1 wrote:Why making composite sync, if both devices have separated vertical and horicontal sync?

Because the GBS-8200 V4.0 board that I tested did not work when using the separate horizontal and vertical syncs from the Atari - it does not work in this configuration :( See here

It is possible to use separate horizontal and vertical syncs but they still need processing and one of them needs inverting so no improvement over the circuits detailed here, here and here

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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby 1st1 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:54 am

This is a good way to make composite sync from h- and v-sync. Its from 520ST / Mega ST circuit diagram. 15 years back I got a workstation monitor I wanted to use with my PC and a widely programmable graphics card (Miro Magic HR). The main problem was that this monitor was having sync on green. That graphics card only had RGB and C/H-Sync. So I borrowed this circuit from Atari, added a 3rd diode and connected it to green of the VGA connector of that 8514-card. It was working quite nice after programming the correct timing, I had 1280x960 pixels at home...

composite.png
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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby Silly_Pony » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:05 pm

I like how you both come up with alternatives to my suggestion, but they're both more of a pain to do. :roll:
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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby ralcool » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:26 pm

Yes, But if it wasn't for people playing with solutions.. we wouldn't have them. At the very start of the threads.. It didn't work out of the box.
Now it does. .. Do we have to argue which method is the best? (And wow, Three guys came up with different results at different times.....)

Calm down pony. (I know ponies.. I have a 5yr old girl) 8)

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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby 1024MAK » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:19 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby Silly_Pony » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:44 pm

ralcool wrote:(I know ponies.. I have a 5yr old girl) 8)


Watch out everyone, he's got an excuse! :lol:

Anyway, am I unlucky with GBS boards or are they just a bit rubbish? They seem to choke completely on patterns, like desktops... Horrible vertical bands, some areas stretched very slightly horizontally, others squashed very slightly horizontally. I don't think they're really that suitable for using a computer on.

I think something more bespoke is needed. It is interesting that the ST's 640 pixel mode (ST medium) has a visible border around it, but Amiga's 640 mode (PAL high res) fills the entire TV-Safe area... And of course the TV just sees a 625 line signal anyway... Hmm.

I imagine picture quality could be greatly improved if we could guarantee each pixel is exactly doubled/tripled/whatevered, then mapped to a resolution equaling the monitor's native res. 1080p would end up with 640 pixels worth of border, horizontally, after doubling the image. Anything less than 1280x800 and you couldn't scale at all, just add huge borders.

Hmm. I'd say to the Individual Computers technique of an internal scandoubler/flickerfixer would be the way to go, if it wasn't for soldered shifters, STEs, etc...

And 13-Pin DINs of the type STs use basically don't exist anymore. I had to steal a socket from a monitor switchbox just to replace one with a pin broken off in it.

We're in a pickle, aren't we. I wonder about a drop in replacement motherboard with a vga socket... A man can dream.
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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby spiny » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:37 pm

Silly_Pony wrote:
ralcool wrote:(I know ponies.. I have a 5yr old girl) 8)


Watch out everyone, he's got an excuse! :lol:

Anyway, am I unlucky with GBS boards or are they just a bit rubbish? They seem to choke completely on patterns, like desktops... Horrible vertical bands, some areas stretched very slightly horizontally, others squashed very slightly horizontally. I don't think they're really that suitable for using a computer on.

I think something more bespoke is needed. It is interesting that the ST's 640 pixel mode (ST medium) has a visible border around it, but Amiga's 640 mode (PAL high res) fills the entire TV-Safe area... And of course the TV just sees a 625 line signal anyway... Hmm.

I imagine picture quality could be greatly improved if we could guarantee each pixel is exactly doubled/tripled/whatevered, then mapped to a resolution equaling the monitor's native res. 1080p would end up with 640 pixels worth of border, horizontally, after doubling the image. Anything less than 1280x800 and you couldn't scale at all, just add huge borders.

Hmm. I'd say to the Individual Computers technique of an internal scandoubler/flickerfixer would be the way to go, if it wasn't for soldered shifters, STEs, etc...

And 13-Pin DINs of the type STs use basically don't exist anymore. I had to steal a socket from a monitor switchbox just to replace one with a pin broken off in it.

We're in a pickle, aren't we. I wonder about a drop in replacement motherboard with a vga socket... A man can dream.


like i posted in the other thread, mine works perfectly with the 'sync' circuit added.
it's coped with plenty of demos and various desktops and looks just as nice as my CM 8833.

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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby Silly_Pony » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:57 am

I hear it said but I've never seen it on my monitors. Ever. Even when I have heard similar claims and gotten "proof" of them, it's shown the same defects as mine.

Load up some test cards, take some photos.

EDIT: Someone did make a youtube video showing ST LOW, camerawork is shoddy, but, does show how the scaling ruins the image http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6v89LahLc8

Here is a screenshot taken from the above: http://i.imgur.com/PJtvx.png

As you can see it's far from sharp. Text is slightly ghosting. If your CRT is that bad then get it calibrated.
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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby Methanoid » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:27 am

Looks fine to me... in pic and in video...

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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby wongck » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:54 am

Need a eye of a pony.... :megaphone:
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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby Silly_Pony » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:57 am

Methanoid wrote:Looks fine to me... in pic and in video...


You know pixels have corners, right?
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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby DarkLord » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:12 pm

wongck wrote:Need a eye of a pony.... :megaphone:


Does "Eye of the Tiger" music play in the background when you say that? :lol:
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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby wongck » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:24 pm

DarkLord wrote:
wongck wrote:Need a eye of a pony.... :megaphone:

Does "Eye of the Tiger" music play in the background when you say that? :lol:

:lol: :lol: I know we are from the era... cos I was thinking of that song as I typed it.
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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby ralcool » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:21 am

I hadn't bothered to buy one my self.. but now I will just to see the drama.

So to be annoying- instead of resisters in the simple version, why not a pair of signal diodes? It would drop the voltage a bit too as a bonus. 1N4148 or similar.
Then the lines wouldn't been see as a short to the Atari.

Otherwise I'll build the circuit from Mark and compare the image quality to the resister/cap method. For fun. Digital is best.

I haven't used colour in ages. I should do it... mount the GBS above the RF modulator....maybe.

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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby Poobah » Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:52 am

Silly_Pony wrote:Anyway, am I unlucky with GBS boards or are they just a bit rubbish? They seem to choke completely on patterns, like desktops... Horrible vertical bands, some areas stretched very slightly horizontally, others squashed very slightly horizontally. I don't think they're really that suitable for using a computer on.

I think something more bespoke is needed. It is interesting that the ST's 640 pixel mode (ST medium) has a visible border around it, but Amiga's 640 mode (PAL high res) fills the entire TV-Safe area... And of course the TV just sees a 625 line signal anyway... Hmm.

I imagine picture quality could be greatly improved if we could guarantee each pixel is exactly doubled/tripled/whatevered, then mapped to a resolution equaling the monitor's native res. 1080p would end up with 640 pixels worth of border, horizontally, after doubling the image. Anything less than 1280x800 and you couldn't scale at all, just add huge borders.

The GBS is about as good as you can do without replacing shifter, and possibly other stuff.
The ST doesn't fill the screen because the pixel clock is 'wrong', The ST video signal is a mess that's 'almost' standard
The funky pixel clock pretty much guarantees that any off the shelf doubler won't look good.

I should add that the GBS looks best on a CRT (I've got a big ol' Sony Trinitron that it looks pretty good on)

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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby 1024MAK » Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:30 pm

I notice that some sellers now have HD9800/GBS8200 V5.0 boards for sale (see here (UK) and here (USA)).
Anyone got a V5.0 yet? Does it work better?

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Re: GBS-8220 to Atari ST (2012 topic)

Postby dougforpres » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:41 am

Hi Guys,

I recently (within last month) purchased a GBS-8220 and to my utter shock and horror, it did not work with the ST :(
I then spent a number of fruitless hours trying to communicate with the people at Gonbes, but alas it was not to be - they just wanted me to upgrade to the US$400 model of their board.

So I went to work with my scope and Google.

# According to the specs for the board I purchased, the GBS-8220 only supports separate H & V Sync for line rates > 31kHz.
# According to Gonbes, the board fully supports both positive and negative sync.

Both of these appear to be true:
* Regardless of polarity of H & V Sync, I could not get board to display an image (other than the odd random frame) when separate sync pulses were applied.
* Regardless of polarity, a CSYNC signal was correctly interpreted.

My solution was to use a 74HCT00 chip (Quad 2-input NAND) to create a composite sync signal. An AND gate would work just as well.

At its simplest, here is the circuit (courtesy of twobits.com, who published this a while back)
http://www.twobits.com/cga.gif

I've attached a couple of photos (you will need to scroll the images as they are taller than the previews):

#1 - 74HCT00 - the lash-up
74HCT00.jpg

I used the +5V connector from the GBS-8220 board (they even supplied a wire, wasn't that nice!)
The HSYNC and VSYNC signals are connected to pins 1 & 2 of the Quad-NAND (doesn't matter which goes where).
The CSYNC signal was pulled from pin 3 and connected to the CSYNC input on the GBS-8220 (it also seems to work when connected to the HSYNC input).
As noted in the image, I could have easily used the 5 post connector on the edge of the board (I confirmed that CSYNC applied there works fine) - but the GBS-8220 came with the white connector and wires, so that's what I used.

#2 - It lives! A shot of the GEM desktop
Alive.jpg


#3 - Oscilloscope traces showing separate input, plus composite output (inverted)
DSO-Quad.png


The Magenta trace is the incoming VSYNC signal (5V).
The Green trace is the incoming HSYNC signal (5V).
The Cyan trace is the output CSYNC signal (5V).

There are obviously a number of tidy-up items to do, like putting a ceramic cap across the power supply lines to filter noise and maybe some pull-up/down resistors on the input and output pins (including unused inputs). But I thought I'd publish these initial results, as there do indeed seem to be a lot of questions around "will the GBS-8220 board work with my ST/Amiga/<insert 80's computer here>?", and this circuit is a lot safer to the ST than capacitors 'shorting' sync pulses, and has the benefit that at its simplest the component count is 1 :)

The above circuit worked just fine for both Low and Medium resolutions, on both a 1040 STF and a 1040 STFM.

Doug

PS: Thanks to everyone who has posted on this topic, there are a lot of good references.
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