First PAK board attempt...

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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby mdivancic » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:53 am

DarkLord wrote:Well, it does seem to be more stable - it doesn't crash (so far) after
about 2 hours running at 40mhz.

That's quite a performance drop though. :)


So, do you want fast or do you want stable? :-)
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby DarkLord » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:26 am

mdivancic wrote:
DarkLord wrote:Well, it does seem to be more stable - it doesn't crash (so far) after
about 2 hours running at 40mhz.

That's quite a performance drop though. :)


So, do you want fast or do you want stable? :-)


I'm an Atarian - I want it all! :)

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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby DarkLord » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:31 am

alanh wrote:Sure, but if it's only the FPU, then I wouldn't worry, not many applications will use it, and still, 3300% is better than 2000% :-)


Yep, I surely understand that. :)

It's odd - right now I've got the 50mhz FPU in, the 50mhz 68030 in, I'm running at 40mhz (crystal oscillator), with
the new GALs in, and I'm shooting for running tests on it at the 6 hour mark. With this setup, and running Gembench
right after bootup, it occasionally reports %1777 as the increase. :roll:

Do you think the fact that the 50mhz 68030 I'm using is a "C" model, where the 40mhz 68030 is a "B" model has
any significant effects?

I have noticed that the 50mhz 68030, running under spec at 40mhz *is* cooler than the 40mhz 68030
running at 32mhz or 40mhz.

Will report back in about 3 more hours...if you don't hear from me, you'll know that we experienced a local
"China Syndrome"... :lol:
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby ralcool » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:13 am

Try the 40MHz 'B' Model @ 50MHz... Got China Yet?

Motorola was probably shooting for the star anyways at that clock/temp

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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby DarkLord » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:17 am

ralcool wrote:Try the 40MHz 'B' Model @ 50MHz... Got China Yet?


You can't. Or at least if I'm reading the docs right you can't. Both the FPU and CPU
are controlled by the crystal oscillator chip. As far as I can tell, you can't run
the crystal oscillator chip any faster than your FPU and CPU go.

Yes, I do have the 50mhz 68030 - its in the PAK board right now. I'm running it at
40mhz for testing. I still can't run at 50mhz - I just get a white screen, no Atari
logo, and that's it.
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby Nikolas » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:56 am

Maybe fiew placed 470uf 6.3v or 10 volts caps will help to keep main voltage steady and clean :)
If you guys expirience hardware problems.
1. Always remove chips if possible before soldering.
2. Resolder your hardware, check cables too.
3. If problem continue THEN must be faulty software.

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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby DarkLord » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:18 pm

Small update - as mentioned previously, I had a 4 meg memory board from Best that
wasn't working right. No matter what, it would only show 2 of 4 megs as available.

I returned the board to Best (first time I've had to return anything to them in over
20 years of service!) to be checked out and I got it back in the mail today.

Looks like their tech removed the SIMM sockets and soldered the memory directly
to the board. Bottom line is, it works, my STacy now reports the 4 megs as there.

The really, really, really good news? All 4 megs of memory on the board is 80ns!!!

Another step forward, for speed and stability with the PAK board. I'm happy. :)
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby 1024MAK » Tue May 01, 2012 12:48 am

DarkLord wrote:After about 2-3 hours of operation, to where the 68030 is very hot, everything still works good except for GEMBench. GemBench hangs up at the floating math test at 40mhz and the '030 running hot. It doesn't do that at 32mhz.

And then DarkLord wrote:PS Is heat something to worry about? I can't help but notice the 68030 (and even the 68000 alongside it) get *very* hot.

With digital chips, the faster they are clocked, the more power they consume due to losses caused by the transistors in them switching. Each time the transistors switch, for a very short amount of time extra current passes through the transistors. So to enable stable operation, the faster the transistors can actually switch is important (compared to the clock speed they are driven).
Heat causes silicon semiconductor transistors to need less voltage to switch on, so as the input voltage is the same, the transistors are driven harder, causing even more heat!

So for maximum stability, use a higher rated part (e.g. use a 50MHz part but with a lower clock frequency like you are doing :wink: ) and try to provide some extra cooling (a small fan, even a 40mm x 40mm type) will help. If the fan will not fit, put it somewhere else and build an air flow pipe to direct air over the 680x0 MPU's. Small brush-less fans can be bought that run on 5V dc and which only draw a small current. The 40mm 5V dc type typically draws a current of 0.11A. The 12V dc type typically draws a current of 0.08A.

And if you think a chip is too hot, find out if you can hold you finger on the centre of the chip for 3 seconds after the device has been on for a while (e.g. more than one hour). If you can hold your finger on it for three seconds or more, it is not too hot. Of course this test is a bit subjective :mrgreen:

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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby DarkLord » Tue May 01, 2012 9:11 am

1024MAK wrote:With digital chips, the faster they are clocked, the more power they consume due to losses caused by the transistors in them switching. Each time the transistors switch, for a very short amount of time extra current passes through the transistors. So to enable stable operation, the faster the transistors can actually switch is important (compared to the clock speed they are driven).
Heat causes silicon semiconductor transistors to need less voltage to switch on, so as the input voltage is the same, the transistors are driven harder, causing even more heat!


Thanks for the explanation.

1024MAK wrote:So for maximum stability, use a higher rated part (e.g. use a 50MHz part but with a lower clock frequency like you are doing :wink: ) and try to provide some extra cooling (a small fan, even a 40mm x 40mm type) will help. If the fan will not fit, put it somewhere else and build an air flow pipe to direct air over the 680x0 MPU's. Small brush-less fans can be bought that run on 5V dc and which only draw a small current. The 40mm 5V dc type typically draws a current of 0.11A. The 12V dc type typically draws a current of 0.08A.


The way its looking right now, I'll probably try to maximize everything for stability, then run it at 32mhz. :)

1024MAK wrote:And if you think a chip is too hot, find out if you can hold you finger on the centre of the chip for 3 seconds after the device has been on for a while (e.g. more than one hour). If you can hold your finger on it for three seconds or more, it is not too hot. Of course this test is a bit subjective :mrgreen:

Mark


Well, given that it is subjective, I've left it on for 6-8 hours before, doing various things, and I can leave my finger on the chips for longer than 3 seconds. What I was mostly going by was that fact that Gembench will run successfully, including the FPU part, when its first booted up, but after about an hour or
so, it won't pass the FPU part. That's why I was thinking there might be a heat problem.

I'm going to seriously look at seeing what I can do to mount a small 5v fan somewhere and see if that helps.

Thanks!
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby DarkLord » Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:37 am

Well, still waiting on 2 different items before I can close up the STacy for good,
but in the meantime, I reassembled the bottom half to do a "burn" kind of test.

I did make one other change. Previously, I had refloored the battery compartment
after cutting out the original space there. I was thinking about using the new space,
half its original size, for storage. The internal power supply board would sit directly
underneath there, and it was pretty tight - in fact, the P/S was pushing up against
that, so I decided to remove that flooring and leave it open. Gives the P/S a little
more room to "breathe" as well.

PB170001.JPG


PB170002.JPG


PB170003.JPG


PB170004.JPG


PB170005.JPG


PB170006.JPG


PB170007.JPG


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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby DarkLord » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:09 am

PB170008.JPG


Here the reassembled bottom half is, we're hooked up to a cheap VGA monitor via
the RGB adaptor:

P6230002.JPG


Closeup of the bottom half:

P6230003.JPG


Here's a side shot - you can see a gap towards
the back of the case, but it does fit together fine
there - I just don't have the screws in at this point. :)

P6230004.JPG


Here is a closeup shot with the battery compartment cover
removed, and now you can see the relocated P/S board. I'm
using an anti-static bag as a layer between the P/S and the
STacy's motherboard:

P6230007.JPG


P6230008.JPG


Screenshot of my current desktop (deskpic background)

P6230017.JPG


Running for over 6 hours now, at 32mhz, with the bottom half closed up and I'm
getting no errors on any software that I run. So we're pretty solid I think.

Of course, this doesn't cover how reliable it will be over time, but I'll just have
to find the answer to that one down the road, with lots of use... :)
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby DarkLord » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:12 am

Ah, before anyone asks, this is a Best Electronics ST mouse that I modified the
cable on. I just couldn't see any reason to have 4 foot of cord with my STacy. :)

P6230010.JPG


Before its all said and done, I'll paint it to match the STacy.
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby Shredder11 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:56 pm

I think your STacy adventures should be made into a dedicated website, along with a few sections about using, modding and other general advice for other users out there. Good idea?
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby DarkLord » Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:58 am

Shredder11 wrote:I think your STacy adventures should be made into a dedicated website, along with a few sections about using, modding and other general advice for other users out there. Good idea?


When <rolls eyes> I get completely done, that might not be a bad idea at all - probably on www.darkforce.org. Way overdue for an overhaul on it anyway. :)
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby DarkLord » Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:08 am

Well, thanks to Jürgen (aka Athlord), I've got the Lattice GALs, at 15ns and 10ns
where needed, already programmed, complete with the latest PAK JED files.

3 cheers for Jürgen! :cheers:

Other than continuing to experiment a bit with 40mhz and faster speeds, my PAK
68/3 board is now complete, fully operational, and updated.

Here is what the beast looks like now:

P7070009_FINAL.JPG


That's right, now witness the firepower of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL battle
STation! Er...<cough> sorry, got carried away there... :lol:

What started out as a seemingly impossible "wish list" for my STacy now has every
item checked off as *done", except for one. As soon as that one is completed, I
can actually close it up!

So Ralcool <nudge, nudge, wink, wink>, how are you and Holger coming along with
that HD mod? :angel:

Thanks!
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby 1024MAK » Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:20 am

Well done that man!

Never thought I would see such a beast!

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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby wongck » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:38 am

Great job DL !!! [smilie=greencolorz4_pdt_12.gif]
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby ralcool » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:07 pm

DarkLord wrote: As soon as that one is completed, I
can actually close it up!

So Ralcool <nudge, nudge, wink, wink>, how are you and Holger coming along with
that HD mod? :angel:

Thanks!


Cough Cough.. Erm yeah.. Well, I'll bang out a little pcb you can use- and use the early code I've got currently that can do the job.. 32Mhz powered and all that.
I'll have to recontact Holger and get the thing finalised. Auto Step is still untested, but the single drive mode is operational.

I've been working on the wifey's car of late, and things are well behind.

The pcb will be wired in a way that any code changes will be connected and usable to the header pins that link to the GAL.

I'll get busy and do it. :), when some new code happens, you can rewrite the GAL and run the new features.

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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby DarkLord » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:39 pm

Awesome ! :)
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby alanh » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:24 am

Athlord wrote:
alanh wrote:Perfect. Thanks !

Can I ask what the orange link cable is for ?


Look what i wrote to Ron:
Try the PAK on Pupla2.
Therefor is the GAL U4 = V4-50ac on the PAK necessary.
The Jumper on Pupla set to:
J1 out
J2 in
J4 out
J3 from the nearest Pin to the Pupla-Board connect a short wire to PAK U1 PIN20 over a 68Ohm resistor (solder the resistor on PIN 20)


Any chance we can get a picture of the topside of your PluPla/2 - Athlord ?
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby DarkLord » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:04 pm

Don't know if this will help any or not Alan, but here is a picture of mine, plus some
downloaded pictures.

pupla2.jpg


PC210007.JPG


PC210011.JPG


pupla.jpg
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby alanh » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:48 am

Yeah, I've seen these before and you can notice that the 68000 socket is soldered into different places on the top and middle picture. Weird. But I think the top one is wrong, and I found the picture on wrsonline to coincide with the middle picture.

Still, Athlord's top of his PluPla/2 would help as it'd be good to see how he soldered the 68 Ohm resistor onto JP3.
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby DarkLord » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:47 am

Athlord usually follows this thread pretty close, he should respond soon.

BTW, the middle and bottom pictures were my board. The top picture was a
download. I started to say PuPLa 1 vs 2, but they all are 2's, I think. Different
revisions maybe?
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby artik-wroc » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:47 pm

alanh wrote:...But I think the top one is wrong...


Yes, it's true. My mistake, I had to fix it.
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Re: First PAK board attempt...

Postby DarkLord » Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:38 pm

artik-wroc wrote:
alanh wrote:...But I think the top one is wrong...


Yes, it's true. My mistake, I had to fix it.


Ah, well there's the explanation then - thanks for posting! :cheers:
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