Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby Solarricht » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:48 pm

SofiST wrote:
Solarricht wrote:... I just tried setting the IDs of Ultrasatan again and it still wont boot via Adscsi+ adapter. Its encouraging to hear it can be done. Wondering, do you boot from another scsi disc or ultrasatan. My scsi interface isnt connected to any other devices yet (awaiting cable to attach sampler) so USD the only one. Using IDcheck it doesnt get recognised, just hangs on the ID forever. Ive got STe connected to AdSCSI input, and Usatan on AdSCSI+ output. It works & boots from megafile. I wonder where im going wrong...


I think that US + ICD combo works better when connect them parallel (with splitter) than connecting US via ICD . Still, I say that it is unreliable - according to my tests. And no driver which can help in that, so not the latest Hddriver too.


Just purchased HDDriver & so far no luck (ouch)! Where can i get a splitter? I contacted Zaxon who sold me the USdisc, he thought a splitter was bad idea. Id be up for trying out a splitter if i can get one.

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby DrCoolZic » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:02 pm

SofiST wrote:
Solarricht wrote:... I just tried setting the IDs of Ultrasatan again and it still wont boot via Adscsi+ adapter. Its encouraging to hear it can be done. Wondering, do you boot from another scsi disc or ultrasatan. My scsi interface isnt connected to any other devices yet (awaiting cable to attach sampler) so USD the only one. Using IDcheck it doesnt get recognised, just hangs on the ID forever. Ive got STe connected to AdSCSI input, and Usatan on AdSCSI+ output. It works & boots from megafile. I wonder where im going wrong...


I think that US + ICD combo works better when connect them parallel (with splitter) than connecting US via ICD . Still, I say that it is unreliable - according to my tests. And no driver which can help in that, so not the latest Hddriver too.

Things to know (ultra-simplified explanations): UltraSatan/SD uses tri-state bus drivers where "standard" ASCI controllers (as defined by Atari) uses bidir TS buffer. This implies that you can put several SD/USD on ASCI bus without problem. But as soon as you use any other ASCI controller the SD/USD MUST be connected to the ASCI out of this controller.
For example I have tried with a Megafile 20 in that case the connection must be: Atari -> Megafile ASCI input -> Megafile ASCI output -> SD/USD
It works well with ICD driver and actually in the case of a megafile 20 the HDDriver does not work (it does not work even with a megafile alone! I can go in more detail if there is interest).

I have not performed test with the ICD adapter (my original ICD adapter was half-broken) but it should work : Atari --> ICD ASCI input --> ICD ASCI output --> SD/USD and ICD SCSI to sampler.
Also remember main diff between ASCI and SCSI : ASCI only master is Atari all others controller are slaves where SCSI is multimaster any device can request beeing master. In case of disk (or sampler) this is not an issue as disk would not request to be master on bus ....

I am very interested in connecting a sampler to Atari with SCSI. I have an Akai S1000 with SCSI I/F and I have never succeded to transfer data between Atari and Akai using the ICD adapter (tried several sw without success) ?!? Did someone knows how to make it work (with or without SD).

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby Solarricht » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:11 pm

Things to know (ultra-simplified explanations): UltraSatan/SD uses tri-state bus drivers where "standard" ASCI controllers (as defined by Atari) uses bidir TS buffer. This implies that you can put several SD/USD on ASCI bus without problem. But as soon as you use any other ASCI controller the SD/USD MUST be connected to the ASCI out of this controller.
For example I have tried with a Megafile 20 in that case the connection must be: Atari -> Megafile ASCI input -> Megafile ASCI output -> SD/USD
It works well with ICD driver and actually in the case of a megafile 20 the HDDriver does not work (it does not work even with a megafile alone! I can go in more detail if there is interest).

I have not performed test with the ICD adapter (my original ICD adapter was half-broken) but it should work : Atari --> ICD ASCI input --> ICD ASCI output --> SD/USD and ICD SCSI to sampler.
Also remember main diff between ASCI and SCSI : ASCI only master is Atari all others controller are slaves where SCSI is multimaster any device can request beeing master. In case of disk (or sampler) this is not an issue as disk would not request to be master on bus ....



I am very interested in connecting a sampler to Atari with SCSI. I have an Akai S1000 with SCSI I/F and I have never succeded to transfer data between Atari and Akai using the ICD adapter (tried several sw without success) ?!? Did someone knows how to make it work (with or without SD).[/quote]
Thanks for more info...
I have tried connecting as you say, icd adscsi+st adapter input -Atari , icd output- Ultrasatan, Doesn't work.
I've tried both icd & HDdriver software, neither get it to work
I've tried setting device IDs in various configurations (but so they don't clash), none work
It's not a termination issue as I've got a hard disc that boots ok on scsi bus
If ICD adapter has a bug that won't allow Atari to see Ultrasatan through icd adapter, then maybe a mega ste internal scsi board will work instead as it would definitely be made to Atari standards (and my ultrasatan is recognised through the Atari megafile output). I would be interested in buying one of these internal mega ste scsi boards if anyone has one to part with.
I have resorted to buying scsi card reader which will work like Ultrasatan on scsi chain and give me several slots so I can use a different slot as hard disc for my sampler (differently formatted card). Not arrived yet.
Would still like ultrasatan in the chain! So I will pursue this seemingly impossible mission.
When I get the Atari & sampler working (still awaiting cable) I hope to be able to give details on how to do this. Read akai manual today, & it seems the sampler has a local ID for the akai controller, and a separate one to set for using with a hard disc (this needs to match the scsi hd ID). Then I'll be onto using Avalon or replay16 software...

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby SofiST » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:04 pm

Well, the explanation for problems - when Satan is connected via ICD is more than likely: the signal delays occured by passing thru ICD chips.
ICD has some nice solutions as no need for setting target ID on self - the logic passes set ID on SCSI devices to ACSI port (to say so). But it surely causes some signal delay and even glitches - as I noticed with logic analysator. Modern devices as Satan are very siensitive on short pulses and not time aligned signals.

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby frank.lukas » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:59 pm

... exist some of the JED Files from the ICD Hostadapter GALs/PALs ?
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby ijor » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:27 pm

frank.lukas wrote:... exist some of the JED Files from the ICD Hostadapter GALs/PALs ?


Not that I am aware. I actually never heard about any kind of confidential information or data about any ICD product being ever released. Schematics, software or firmware sources, PAL/PLD programming files, nothing, nada :(

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby siriushardware » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:12 pm

That's a pity, as I have a broken ICD host adaptor which I am fairly certain has a damaged GAL / PAL in it. All the standard logic ICs have been lifted and tested in a dedicated TTL chip tester.

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby ijor » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:24 am

siriushardware wrote:That's a pity, as I have a broken ICD host adaptor which I am fairly certain has a damaged GAL / PAL in it.


Well ... it is possible to reverse engineer a PAL (or GAL for that matter). Some chinese companies can do it pretty quickly. It is just an issue of money. I don't know how much they charge. But I suspect it is more or less affordable.

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby frank.lukas » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:06 am

May be collect some Money ... ?

I will donate some.
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby czietz » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:14 am

ijor wrote:Not that I am aware. I actually never heard about any kind of confidential information or data about any ICD product being ever released. Schematics, software or firmware sources, PAL/PLD programming files, nothing, nada :(


While finding out how to best add initiator ID capability to my ICD AdSCSI plus (not ICD Link!), I reverse-engineered one or two of the PALs. The resulting files were tested successfully in my host adapter.

@siriushardware: Which ICD host adapter do you have?

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby DrCoolZic » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:49 am

Long ago I did a schematic of one of the icd adapter but I lost the file
I beleive I still have a paper output I will try to find it

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:45 pm

Sorry to interject into this thread, but I've always wanted to hook up my scsi cd-rom drive in parallel with my ultrasatan using the Link.

Is it possible or is the consensus that it would be unreliable even with a splitter?

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby ijor » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:10 pm

Btw, did anybody ever open an ICD Link (I or II)? I assume it is based on a CPLD. But would be nice to see a picture of the board.

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby czietz » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:50 pm

In this video (I think it's an ICD Link I) you can see that indeed there is a MACH110 CPLD inside:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqFtKQKb2Ao

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby mikro » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:31 pm

czietz wrote:In this video (I think it's an ICD Link I) you can see that indeed there is a MACH110 CPLD inside:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqFtKQKb2Ao

Indeed:
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby ijor » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:49 pm

Thanks a lot to both.

The first one must be Link I because the Link II supports parity already. I wonder what is the other small chip at the left of the Link I on the video. What it does that it couldn't be implemented in the CPLD? Analog logic? Or may be some very fast logic that required a TTL device?

@mikro: Is that and ICD Link, or a Link 9X? I would guess it is the latter.

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby mikro » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:20 pm

ijor wrote:@mikro: Is that and ICD Link, or a Link 9X? I would guess it is the latter.

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I didn't realise those are different. It's Link 96, in its MegaSTE variation.

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby ijor » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:22 pm

mikro wrote:I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I didn't realise those are different. It's Link 96, in its MegaSTE variation.


Thanks. Btw, somebody knows the story of the company that sold those Link 96/97? Did they have some kind of agreement or license with ICD?

And again, I am curious about those extra small chips with the labels erased. Why they would need to protect the design if the CPLD code is already protected? Or the protection is because they reused the original ICD Link II CPLD ???

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby siriushardware » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:50 pm

czietz wrote:
While finding out how to best add initiator ID capability to my ICD AdSCSI plus (not ICD Link!), I reverse-engineered one or two of the PALs. The resulting files were tested successfully in my host adapter.

@siriushardware: Which ICD host adapter do you have?


It's not quite within reach at the moment: I will fish the PCB out the next time I am where it is for some other reason, and take a photo. The name brand / model 'AdSCSI' or 'AdSCSI PLUS' does spring to mind. The Drive unit (ICD Host adaptor and drive in an enclosure) was a Power Computing PC900.

Fortunately the actual SCSI drive in the drive unit was OK - I put it in a Linux PC equipped with a SCSI card and used DD to image it to a file, and from there successfully used it as a HDD image in Hatari (Linux), and also re-imaged it to an SD card which works in an Ultrasatan. But it would be good to fix the original drive unit, which served me well for about 30 years. I don't feel like throwing it away just yet.

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby czietz » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:05 pm

siriushardware wrote:It's not quite within reach at the moment: I will fish the PCB out the next time I am where it is for some other reason, and take a photo. The name brand / model 'AdSCSI' or 'AdSCSI PLUS' does spring to mind.


If it's an AdSCSI plus, I'll go search for those JEDEC files that I made back then. If you're lucky it just the one or two PALs that I reverse-engineered/recreated as GALs.

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby ijor » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:32 pm

siriushardware wrote:It's not quite within reach at the moment: I will fish the PCB out the next time I am where it is for some other reason, and take a photo. The name brand / model 'AdSCSI' or 'AdSCSI PLUS' does spring to mind.


The AdSCSI PLUS has a battery backed real time clock, the non PLUS model does not. But note that there is an even earlier model that it wasn't called ADSCSI at all. That first ICD host adapter did have a real time clock but it didn't support the extended ICD command set, so it was limited to 1GB.

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:25 pm

First I found the paper copy of the reverse engineered schematic of AdSCSI plus I did 11 years ago. Unfortunately, I lost the schematic file. If any interest, I can redo the schematic. As far as I remember this schematic must be almost correct and complete. Here is a copy (sorry bad quality)


You have to know that there has been a lot of revision of the ICD products (You can still find a short description of ICD products at http://www.icd.com/atari/index.html#link2).
The AdSCSI Plus has a lot of different versions. As Ijor mentioned I own a very early version of it that do not support extended ICD command and does not have parity.


I have been able to find 4 AdSCSI Plus boards in my collection (don’t know where are the others). Three of the boards are installed in chassis with power supply, SCSI HD drives, and one with SCSI CD drive. I also found an AdSCSI board and an ICD Link.


Two of the boards have the standard AdSCSI-Plus ST inscription, one board has Advantage-Plus ST inscription, and one board (the old one) has ICD ST Hard Drive Adapter BC

AdSCSI Plus.JPG

IMG_20180802_093242055.jpg

DSC03467.JPG

icd adscsi plus sch.JPG


I did try to move PAL from board to board and it NEVER worked. Seems like there has been lots of different version probably tied to specific revision. Therefore I am very skeptical that you can use PAL from existing board unles you are sure it is same revision?
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:57 pm

For those interested I also found an old document that I have written in 2007 about connecting SCSI devices.
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby siriushardware » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:38 pm

OK, I didn't lay hands on my broken ICD interface yet but from DrCoolZic's Pictures and the knowledge that mine did not have a battery backed clock, I can say that mine is some version of the AdSCSI. It looks very like the one in the middle of DrCoolZic's second picture a couple of posts ago.

Unfortunately I guess that means that I can't take advantage of Czeitz's kind offer of the JEDEC files. I'm certain that one pin / element of one of the original GALs is blown, so I don't imagine there would be any way to recover the internal code.

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:44 pm

TheNameOfTheGame wrote:Sorry to interject into this thread, but I've always wanted to hook up my scsi cd-rom drive in parallel with my ultrasatan using the Link.

Is it possible or is the consensus that it would be unreliable even with a splitter?


Guess this got lost in the conversation, but can anyone speak to this?


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