Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Troubles with your machine? Just want to speak about the latest improvements? This is the place!

Moderators: Mug UK, Zorro 2, spiny, Greenious, Moderator Team

User avatar
DrCoolZic
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2188
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:03 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby DrCoolZic » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:45 am

SofiST wrote:Original idea was to hit 2 flies at once: getting PAL logics, so can repair now very old ICD adapters. + making replicas.
Now we are smarter, for sure. I think at moment that doing AdSCSI ST replica now is not the best idea. It is not so fast as could be - at least not my exemplar. It is possible to do faster ACSI-SCSI adapter with some GALs or with CPLD. But question is, is it now interesting in era of Flash cards ?

True and this is why I did not push too hard on Jookie :wink: However I still have many SCSI devices (HD, CD/DVD, Tape) and I wanted to use them. Now that I have been able to buy 2 AdSCSI boards I feel safe on the subject. But it took me about 5 years to get them at reasonable price :D

DrCoolZic: I think that you are wrong considering usage of 3-state by ICD. It is elementary if want that your device/design work together with some other on ACSI bus. Data lines of inactive device must be in high-Z state. And regular bidirectional drivers all have that state. The problems (device conflicts) appear usually with IDs. If IDs are not problem, then inperfect signal decodings, noise, short glitches are culprits. Or overloaded bus/lines.

I did not want to go into details but here are my thoughts:
The Satan/UltraSatan uses the ASCI/DMA bus by connecting themselves in parallel (if you prefer Y connection). Therefore on idle everybody is listening and when selected (after address decode) only one device will be "on the bus" while other stay 3-states.
Atari original devices uses daisy chaining: one device input is connected to previous device output. Between input and output connector of each devices you find a bidir-TS LS245 type buffer (see daisy chaining devices section of page 15 of ASCI/DMA integration guide). In idle mode direction is set from in to out and no TS. So data goes from DMA to all devices. Now lets assume we have three devices and that device two has been selected through a command of the DMA. In that case device three must be set in TS so that data from device 2 drive the bus between 3 and 2 (through LS240 with ICD adapter). But device 1 is not set in TS so that data from device 2 can be transfered to DMA. This is a short explanation for more detail see page 42-48 of the guide that describe in details a ASCI adapter and in particular the SCD SIO and SMSG signals.
NOTE: This explain why YOU MUST PLACE your Satan/UltraSatan device at the END of a daisy chain using Atari ASCI devices.

I hope this make more sense, and control logic is not not difficult to do. Again original spec is for up to 4 controllers daisy chained (page 9 & 14), and buffered with LS244 or equivalent (page 15).

SofiST
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:25 pm

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby SofiST » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:40 am

Hmm... I understand roughly daisy-chain concept. It is good as does some separation and signal amplifying. But adds delays - so may decrease speed. In any case, it is partially 3-state :D For devices with short cables, as Satan, better is parallel way, I guess. But I don't see why you talk about Satan as parallel - when there no any splitter or pass-through.
From own experience, parallel connection must work if devices fit some minimal requirements:
Not loading bus when inactive - 3-state of course
Respond only if their set ID is called - or ID in correct area - in case of simplified adapters as ACSI-CF .
Signals INT (IRQ) and DRQ must be 3-state or open collector - because they are shared outputs.
Not generating noise, glitches - this is hard to achieve.

I guess that DRQ on AdSCSI is not 'shared', and therefore DMA fails in case of AdSCSI parallel with Satan or ACSI-CF.
I will test it soon, very simple : just by adding one diode in order :D

User avatar
DrCoolZic
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2188
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:03 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby DrCoolZic » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:00 pm

SofiST wrote:But I don't see why you talk about Satan as parallel - when there no any splitter or pass-through.

May be you are not familiar with the Satan/UltraSatan "B cable" the splitter/parallel Cable as shown on the photo!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

SofiST
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:25 pm

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby SofiST » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:09 pm

I see. But as usual, I needed to make self cables, splitters - and saw was main tool :lol:

I tried mentioned diode adding with AsSCSI, but it worked not. Disconnecting INT line of AdSCSI made that Sandisk partitions were detected, but work was very unreliable ( in DMA mode ). I guess that there was too much noise on data lines. Note that bytewise transfer worked with AdSCSI, only much faster DMA not.

User avatar
DrCoolZic
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2188
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:03 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby DrCoolZic » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:55 pm

I need to redo test of UltraSatan with AdSCSI. I did them about one yaer ago but the ICD board I had at this time was not working properly. :(
But I did successful test of UltraSatan with Satan and UltraSatan with Megafile 20 (in this case USD needs to be on output connector of Megafile :)

macman
Atarian
Atarian
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:13 pm

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby macman » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:25 pm

Hi,
I'm the seller of the IDE to SCSI adapters mentioned in this thread. I never saw the true potential of these when I bought them (and had the opportunity to buy 500 more...but passed) I just wanted to put a cheap disk in an older Mac. I only have a handful of these left and have discovered another very cheap option for putting newer disks in these older machines. Basically, you need to locate a SCA SCSI server hard drive (18GB drives can be found for less than $20), then you get a 80pin to 50pin adapter for around $5 and the machine will happily run with that (I did that with 2 of my Macs). Some discs may not work with some of the adapters (SE mode or something), but if anyone wants more info on this option, let me know.

Solarricht
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:30 pm

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby Solarricht » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:45 pm

I was hopong to use an ICD AdScsi plus adapter to link my ultrasatan, Akai sampler to the STe, however it turns out US wont work with AdScsi plus as different bus handling.
Have just spotted this post about ultrasatan Cable B splitter! Is this the answer to my prayers? Where can i get one? Thanks.

SofiST
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:25 pm

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby SofiST » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:04 pm

Solarricht wrote:I was hopong to use an ICD AdScsi plus adapter to link my ultrasatan, Akai sampler to the STe, however it turns out US wont work with AdScsi plus as different bus handling.
Have just spotted this post about ultrasatan Cable B splitter! Is this the answer to my prayers? Where can i get one? Thanks.


Splitter will not solve US-ICD problems. The problem is of deeper nature. I'm not saying that it is not possible to make some special device which solves US-ICD cowork. But almost sure it will be never made - too complicated and not much unterest, + price .
I think that using instead ICD and old, big SCSI is better to go on something more up to date. As ACSI-CF adapter.

Solarricht
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:30 pm

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby Solarricht » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:05 pm

SofiST wrote:
Solarricht wrote:I was hopong to use an ICD AdScsi plus adapter to link my ultrasatan, Akai sampler to the STe, however it turns out US wont work with AdScsi plus as different bus handling

Splitter will not solve US-ICD problems. The problem is of deeper nature. I'm not saying that it is not possible to make some special device which solves US-ICD cowork. But almost sure it will be never made - too complicated and not much unterest, + price .
I think that using instead ICD and old, big SCSI is better to go on something more up to date. As ACSI-CF adapter.


I dont need the US to comunicate with ICD adscsi adapter as just using this board to send samples back and forth from STe to akai sampler. But i need the STe to boot & run using US. I figured cable B will allow me to use US & add the scsi adapter board to dma chain to comunicate with sampler. Or does the adscsi board get in the way somehow?

Solarricht
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:30 pm

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby Solarricht » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:36 pm

simbo wrote:the link cables have there limit
i can sell you a adscsi + as i have two
i use it together with usd fine

usd is id0 ,2 and i use id1 for the ide cdrw via adapter to scsi and id3 for scsi hdd , id4 as ide hdd via scsi ide adapter
the one to avoid is id6 and id7 they are used for the clock addition on the +

pm me if your in need of this card as its spare

i think the link cables arent so good but should still work fine with usd set as 0 and 2
as long as you use the right cable from jookie it works fine

So someones had success using Ultrasatan with AdScsi+! Will try changing the IDs again just in case i can get this show on the road...

SofiST
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:25 pm

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby SofiST » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:30 pm

Solarricht wrote:I dont need the US to comunicate with ICD adscsi adapter as just using this board to send samples back and forth from STe to akai sampler. But i need the STe to boot & run using US. I figured cable B will allow me to use US & add the scsi adapter board to dma chain to comunicate with sampler. Or does the adscsi board get in the way somehow?


It works not like that. US never communicates with ICD. Only computer (Atari STE) communicates with ICD or US, and never in same time. You may ask how then that we have problems. It is because they are all on same bus, use same lines. And some glitches on signals are always present.

Considering that someone had success : It may work, but is very unreliable. That's the problem. If you are very lucky even may work well. But it is very rare case

Solarricht
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:30 pm

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby Solarricht » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:34 pm

SofiST wrote:
Solarricht wrote:I dont need the US to comunicate with ICD adscsi adapter as just using this board to send samples back and forth from STe to akai sampler. But i need the STe to boot & run using US. I figured cable B will allow me to use US & add the scsi adapter board to dma chain to comunicate with sampler. Or does the adscsi board get in the way somehow?


It works not like that. US never communicates with ICD. Only computer (Atari STE) communicates with ICD or US, and never in same time. You may ask how then that we have problems. It is because they are all on same bus, use same lines. And some glitches on signals are always present.

Considering that someone had success : It may work, but is very unreliable. That's the problem. If you are very lucky even may work well. But it is very rare case

Thankyou for helping me understand this. Im on a steep learning curve! It seems then, there's no solution for getting ultrasatan to work with scsi interface. Wondering if CF adapter on the scsi chain would be better, & ditch the ultrasatan ( which is crazy coz i love ultrasatan! If anyone finds a working solution please post it! :-)

User avatar
alexh
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2706
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:52 pm
Location: UK - Oxford
Contact:

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby alexh » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:14 pm

Think of it this way.

Atari ST(e) has ACSI bus.

ICD Link adapter is ACSI->SCSI host adapter.

UltraSatan is ACSI->SD adapter.

It is not possible to run two host adapters on one ACSI bus.

Sell your ultrasatan and buy one of these :

http://a4000t.com/store/index.php?main_ ... cts_id=184

Solarricht
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:30 pm

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby Solarricht » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:42 pm

alexh wrote:Think of it this way.

Atari ST(e) has ACSI bus.

ICD Link adapter is ACSI->SCSI host adapter.

UltraSatan is ACSI->SD adapter.

It is not possible to run two host adapters on one ACSI bus.

Sell your ultrasatan and buy one of these :

http://a4000t.com/store/index.php?main_ ... cts_id=184

Awsome! Thanks for the info & link. Looks like just the job. Seems a shame to move away from ultrasatan for now. But this is closest to the solution ive been looking for. :-)

User avatar
alexh
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2706
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:52 pm
Location: UK - Oxford
Contact:

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby alexh » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:58 pm

Remember it will need power, so you will require a floppy power extender or external SCSI enclosure or something.

User avatar
wongck
Ultimate Atarian
Ultimate Atarian
Posts: 12489
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 2:09 pm
Location: Far East
Contact:

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby wongck » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:02 am

If I am not wrong, I think these devices contains several SCSI LUN per SCSI-ID.
So you need also the latest HDDRiver 8.40 to use all of the interface.
I guess (really guessing here as I don't have one) they also work with older HDdriver versions but you get not all the interfaces.
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63/CTPCI+ATI+RTL8139+USB 512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
Shared SCSI Bus:ScsiLink ethernet, 9GB HDD,SD-reader @ http://phsw.atari.org
My Atari stuff for sale - click here for list

SofiST
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:25 pm

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby SofiST » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:37 pm

alexh wrote:Think of it this way.

Atari ST(e) has ACSI bus.

ICD Link adapter is ACSI->SCSI host adapter.

UltraSatan is ACSI->SD adapter.

It is not possible to run two host adapters on one ACSI bus.

Sell your ultrasatan and buy one of these :

http://a4000t.com/store/index.php?main_ ... cts_id=184


This is not correct - especially this part is confusing : "It is not possible to run two host adapters on one ACSI bus." . Satandisk or ICD aren't hosts. They look for ACSI port in fact as ACSI devices. Of course condition is that devices must have different target ID set.

Examples of well working combinations: Mega STE internal ACSI-SCSI adapter with Satan or UltraSatan on ACSI connector. Mega STE internal with ACSI-CF by PP. Satandisk or UltraSatan with ACSI-CF by PP - connected with simple passive splitter to external ACSI connector.

SofiST
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:25 pm

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby SofiST » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:43 pm

wongck wrote:If I am not wrong, I think these devices contains several SCSI LUN per SCSI-ID.
So you need also the latest HDDRiver 8.40 to use all of the interface.
I guess (really guessing here as I don't have one) they also work with older HDdriver versions but you get not all the interfaces.


Satandisk and UltraSatan have no multiple LUN support, only for 0 . And in fact, I think that ICD may support multiple LUNs, but hard drives are usually always LUN 0.
I successfully ran via ICD adapter: SCSI hard disk and CD Writer - but they were set as 2 different targets, not LUNs .

Solarricht
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:30 pm

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby Solarricht » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:48 pm

SofiST wrote:
wongck wrote:If I am not wrong, I think these devices contains several SCSI LUN per SCSI-ID.
So you need also the latest HDDRiver 8.40 to use all of the interface.
I guess (really guessing here as I don't have one) they also work with older HDdriver versions but you get not all the interfaces.


Satandisk and UltraSatan have no multiple LUN support, only for 0 . And in fact, I think that ICD may support multiple LUNs, but hard drives are usually always LUN 0.
I successfully ran via ICD adapter: SCSI hard disk and CD Writer - but they were set as 2 different targets, not LUNs .

Thats a releif to hear! I just tried setting the IDs of Ultrasatan again and it still wont boot via Adscsi+ adapter. Its encouraging to hear it can be done. Wondering, do you boot from another scsi disc or ultrasatan. My scsi interface isnt connected to any other devices yet (awaiting cable to attach sampler) so USD the only one. Using IDcheck it doesnt get recognised, just hangs on the ID forever. Ive got STe connected to AdSCSI input, and Usatan on AdSCSI+ output. It works & boots from megafile. I wonder where im going wrong...

jd
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:38 pm
Location: Ruislip, UK

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby jd » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:58 pm

Basically if you get the latest HDDRIVER you can run them all together on the basis you have unique ID's set.

Using ICD software and any other and you will get alot of pain.

I spent weeks trying different software/hardware combos for my SD, US, megafiles and ICD adaptors, painful but fun!!

all worked in the end :D

Solarricht
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:30 pm

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby Solarricht » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:10 pm

jd wrote:Basically if you get the latest HDDRIVER you can run them all together on the basis you have unique ID's set.

Using ICD software and any other and you will get alot of pain.

I spent weeks trying different software/hardware combos for my SD, US, megafiles and ICD adaptors, painful but fun!!

all worked in the end :D

Thats must be where im going wrong! Using ICD drivers. OK time to invest in HDDriver at last a good reason for me. Hope it works- will report back... :-)

User avatar
DarkLord
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4253
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:06 pm
Location: Prestonsburg, KY - USA
Contact:

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby DarkLord » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:24 pm

Umm, I'm pretty sure you can set the card ID's on the Ultrasatan. Here's a quote from Jookie's FAQ page:

http://joo.kie.sk/ultrasatan/faq.html

Q: I got an internal SCSI hard drive and ICD ADSCI Micro Host adapter still fitted in my Atari Mega 4 (SCSI Unit ID: 0). Do I need to remove these first or will the UltraSatan handle being parallel connected albeit via the external hard drive port?
A: it would be best to configure the UltraSatan first to use some other IDs as 0 (i.e. set it to 1 to 7). It shouldn't break when connected to ST with other devices with the same IDs, but you couldn't configure it to new IDs either, because they would 'talk' one through the other (both will respond to the same requests) and the result will be that the ST won't 'understand' none of the devices. So the best would be to configure it on other computer (i.e. on other ST) and then connect it to the Mega ST 4.

There is a program in the downloads section to do this:

http://joo.kie.sk/ultrasatan/download/

Hope this helps.
Welcome To DarkForce! http://www.darkforce.org "The Fuji Lives.!"
Atari SW/HW based BBS - Telnet:darkforce-bbs.dyndns.org 520

User avatar
wongck
Ultimate Atarian
Ultimate Atarian
Posts: 12489
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 2:09 pm
Location: Far East
Contact:

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby wongck » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:26 am

SofiST wrote:
wongck wrote:If I am not wrong, I think these devices contains several SCSI LUN per SCSI-ID.
So you need also the latest HDDRiver 8.40 to use all of the interface.
I guess (really guessing here as I don't have one) they also work with older HDdriver versions but you get not all the interfaces.


Satandisk and UltraSatan have no multiple LUN support, only for 0 . And in fact, I think that ICD may support multiple LUNs, but hard drives are usually always LUN 0.
I successfully ran via ICD adapter: SCSI hard disk and CD Writer - but they were set as 2 different targets, not LUNs .


Sorry for not quoting my reply.
I was referring to this device : http://a4000t.com/store/index.php?main_ ... cts_id=184 (but closer inspection now it says it does not.)
not the Satandisk or Ultrasatan.
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63/CTPCI+ATI+RTL8139+USB 512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
Shared SCSI Bus:ScsiLink ethernet, 9GB HDD,SD-reader @ http://phsw.atari.org
My Atari stuff for sale - click here for list

User avatar
wongck
Ultimate Atarian
Ultimate Atarian
Posts: 12489
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 2:09 pm
Location: Far East
Contact:

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby wongck » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:43 am

Solarricht wrote:Thats a releif to hear! I just tried setting the IDs of Ultrasatan again and it still wont boot via Adscsi+ adapter. Its encouraging to hear it can be done. Wondering, do you boot from another scsi disc or ultrasatan. My scsi interface isnt connected to any other devices yet (awaiting cable to attach sampler) so USD the only one. Using IDcheck it doesnt get recognised, just hangs on the ID forever. Ive got STe connected to AdSCSI input, and Usatan on AdSCSI+ output. It works & boots from megafile. I wonder where im going wrong...


Could it be an terminators issue?
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63/CTPCI+ATI+RTL8139+USB 512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
Shared SCSI Bus:ScsiLink ethernet, 9GB HDD,SD-reader @ http://phsw.atari.org
My Atari stuff for sale - click here for list

SofiST
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:25 pm

Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby SofiST » Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:57 am

Solarricht wrote:... I just tried setting the IDs of Ultrasatan again and it still wont boot via Adscsi+ adapter. Its encouraging to hear it can be done. Wondering, do you boot from another scsi disc or ultrasatan. My scsi interface isnt connected to any other devices yet (awaiting cable to attach sampler) so USD the only one. Using IDcheck it doesnt get recognised, just hangs on the ID forever. Ive got STe connected to AdSCSI input, and Usatan on AdSCSI+ output. It works & boots from megafile. I wonder where im going wrong...


I think that US + ICD combo works better when connect them parallel (with splitter) than connecting US via ICD . Still, I say that it is unreliable - according to my tests. And no driver which can help in that, so not the latest Hddriver too.


Social Media

     

Return to “Hardware”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests