Modified ST hassles

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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:57 pm

DarkLord wrote:
Will try to figure out if its changing or not - but either way, it shouldn't cause the mouse to lockup
should it?

EDIT: Okay, just for the fun of it I hooked my Ultrasatan back up and copied the step program into its
AUTO folder. Now it doesn't rely on being run from any floppy drive. I know you said it was good as long
as it ran from anywhere but I was just experimenting. :)

Makes no difference though, as expected. Booting from the Ultrasatan, step prg in the AUTO folder, mod
in place, 1.44 drive, 720k floppy, boots up. Pop the 720k floppy out, and immediately the mouse freezes.

All of the above except removing the mod and using the paperclip bridge, pop the floppy out, mouse does
not freeze, but it (of course) doesn't recognize a 1.44 floppy.

Okay, ready for the next round... :)


Hmm, Still thinking about your problem.....

One detail is, with this version of the mod, anytime a disc IS NOT in the drive, the WD1772 is recieving 16mhz.
It stays at 16mhz with a HD disc, and drops to 8mhz when a DD disc is inserted.

You said just the act of removing a DD disk locks up the mouse- and this is likely why.

So, if the WD is sending corrupted data to the DMA, then maybe it can lock the ST.

Hum...... Maybe your electronics mate can check everything, perhaps resolder things... take a look.

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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:40 pm

Yep, still waiting to get the better multimeter. When I do, gonna go back
over your previous posts about testing and give it all another run.

*Not* giving up. :)
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:08 pm

Had to make a post...

Today marks my wife and I, our 10th year anniversary married.

You guys were there when we had our second daughter..... 23Jun10.

Gave her (wifey) a half finished new bathroom this week....... t'hehe...ooops.

Feeling very chuffed.... Hot Air Balloon ride coming soon.. :)

Love ya's

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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:14 pm

Awesome! Congratulations to you and yours.

Enjoy the hot-air balloon ride. I wouldn't mind doing that sometime. I
went parasailing on our honeymoon in the Caribbean, it was awesome.
Also went for a submarine ride, and that was pretty cool.

Couldn't get the wife to do the parasailing though, she stayed on the
beach, checking my insurance policy. :roll:

Here I am, just taking off. With the conditions that day, they took me up
to around 700 feet. They said under better conditions, they had gone as
high as 1000.

Para-sailing2.jpg


This is the submarine we rode on.

img04.jpg


Here's a pic of me and the better half. Yes, I had a mullet then. :)

img26a.jpg
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby wongck » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:49 am

Congratulations Ralcool :D

DL, I will be going on a cruise this Dec. I think it docking somewhere in Thailand, hope the flood will settle by then but hey I on a ship :lol:
I guess no para-sailing for me, need a floor on my feet if I'm flying.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:48 am

wongck wrote:Congratulations Ralcool :D

DL, I will be going on a cruise this Dec. I think it docking somewhere in Thailand, hope the flood will settle by then but hey I on a ship :lol:
I guess no para-sailing for me, need a floor on my feet if I'm flying.


You're gonna have a great time. We sure did. About the flying, you sound like
my wife. :)
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby 1024MAK » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:26 am

DarkLord wrote:Also went for a submarine ride, and that was pretty cool.

For a moment I had the strange thought that you had connected an Atari up to the control system of a boomer... 8O :roll: :lol: :wink:
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby 1024MAK » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:34 am

ralcool wrote:Had to make a post...
Today marks my wife and I, our 10th year anniversary married.
You guys were there when we had our second daughter..... 23Jun10.
Gave her (wifey) a half finished new bathroom this week....... t'hehe...ooops.
Feeling very chuffed.... Hot Air Balloon ride coming soon.. :)
Love ya's
ST.

Not sure if congratulations are in order, but as long as you are happy, then life is good 8)
Amazingly, I have never been up in a hot air balloon, but working in Bristol, I do get to see lots of them as there is a big ballooning event near the city every year. As long as the weather is suitable for flying, about 40 to 50 go up in the morning and in the afternoon/evening :D
Enjoy
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:39 am

1024MAK wrote:
DarkLord wrote:Also went for a submarine ride, and that was pretty cool.

For a moment I had the strange thought that you had connected an Atari up to the control system of a boomer... 8O :roll: :lol: :wink:
Mark


Hahaha, that would be a riot! We'd have to put the original mushroom clouds back in for the cherry
bombs when it crashed. :)
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby wongck » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:20 am

1024MAK wrote:For a moment I had the strange thought that you had connected an Atari up to the control system of a boomer... 8O :roll: :lol: :wink:

May be they are used in some of them.... the older subs., knowing how reliable the ST are, still running after over 20 years.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:47 am

Small update:

Reason I've been taking a bit of time is I sent my STacy's motherboard
off to Alex Yu at ATY Computers. The CPU on my STacy was already socketed
and I had Alex socket the WD1772 and the Yamaha chips. So now, every
chip involved in your HD mod is socketed. Kinda takes the pressure off. If
I destroy a chip, its easily replaceable now.

Also, since the old WD1772 is destroyed when they put in a new socket, I
just went ahead and replaced it with the Ajax chip since they are plug and
play compatible.

Now...I decided to go all the way back to ground zero and start over. I removed
everything involved with the mod, and set my STacy back up to stock unit again.
Did this for a couple of reasons, mostly to make sure that the new chips and
sockets were OK and everything was working right before I started making
changes again.

Well, lo and behold, I encountered a problem right away. I couldn't get the stock
setup to format a 720k floppy correctly. It would go through and report that this
disk has 0#%7 bytes available. Those might not be the exact characters it showed,
but you get the idea. So I formatted a floppy on my Mega ST4, and put some files
on it. Took it to the STacy and it would open up the floppy disk but show nothing on
it. So I took a new, fresh formatted 720k floppy and put in the STacy's drive. Opened
it, and saved the desktop. Oddly enough, it worked - it put the desktop.inf file right
there just fine and saved the changes? I'm scratching my head at this point. I went
back, made sure I had all the chips correctly inserted, no bent or missing pins, etc.

Now it was at this point that I realised I hadn't reversed one small change. I had not
reconnected line2 on the floppy drive cable. I thought that, while used by the HD mod,
it wasn't used by the ST for anything else so I left it disconnected. I hooked it back up,
and all the problems went away. Formatted a floppy just fine, read all the disks I threw
at it just fine, etc.

Okay, now I'm back to ground zero. Everything working stock. So I'm ready to start
again, but before I do, I just wanted to ask what difference, if any, the Ajax chip will
make, and if you know what the heck is going on with line2? :)

Thanks man!

PS one more thing. Brad Coda at Best Electronics insists that the STacy version of
TOS 1.04 is different than TOS 1.04 on any other Atari model. Does anyone else
know any details about that? Thanks.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:54 am

Hi there. :)

Ok, Well the only difference I am aware of with the Ajax is its claimed to be a late production part -since WD's were obselete by the time the TT/Falcon were made.
It is said to be improved and can handle as high as 32mhz operation.... 8O (Think 2.88Mb drives that never took off)

As for whether TOS 1.04 is any different- a ROM dump and compare would reveal the truth. I'll have to dig about for the program I used.....

Line 2 does connect to the circuitry within the FDD - so anything is possible. Timings, syncing to index pluses... who knows. Reconnecting in the Stacy likely grounded it.

Before reinstalling the mod. Format a floppy disk like usual- and then do it again after running Step6m.prg.

The drive HAS to sound different.... running a longer step pulse of 6ms instead of 3ms. IF the TOS is somehow different and the patch isn't working- it will prevent
the mod working.

Cheers, :cheers:

ST.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:06 pm

Okay, will be a bit though - Got a bunch of (non-Atari) stuff to do today,
and have my weekly Dungeons & Dragons gaming session tonight with
"the guys". (wife is working nights, in case anyone is wondering how I
get away with that!)... :)

I might have that ROM dump program laying around. I'll look for it. I'll
post results in the next couple of days.

Also, I wound up with a newer multimeter - its supposed to do freq., but
its a digital readout - its not an oscilloscope looking screen which I
usually see posted. Will that be okay for the tests we need to try to do?

One way or another bro, we're gonna nail this sucker down. Because you're
good, and I don't give easily. :D
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:16 am

Found it...

Here is the dump program file I gave Spiny when we discovered his TOS 1.04 was somehow different to normal.

tosdump.zip


I then altered his TOS for native 6ms support based of his code, split into 6 parts with ppera's utility, burnt and sent him a new ROM.

ST. :cheers:

PS, I would still LOVE someone with TOS 2.08 from an ST book to dump it for our archives.....

PPS, That new multimeter is exactly what we need... just a frequency counter that says 'xxx Mhz ' ....Lovely.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:28 am

Alright, grabbed that, thanks.

Here is the dump!

STacy_tos.zip
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:01 am

Okay, I'm feeling real good at the moment!

After reinstalling your mod, my STacy was able to read
this floppy disk:

PB140003.JPG


Then, I double-checked, read and formatted a 720k floppy,
as well as formatting a 1.44m floppy. Note this was using the
PPera TOS 2.06 loader you had linked to in the message thread,
I had given up on the Elco HD mod software - couldn't get it to
do anything but double-density:

PB140005.JPG


No crashes, no mouse lockups, no errors reading any files
from the floppys, or during any file copys, moves, or deletions.

I went back and looked at the pictures from the first installation
attempt I made and I can't see any difference in what I did at all.

My guess...hunch really, is the only thing that is different now is
that I'm actually using an Ajax chip instead of the original WD1772.

I'm gonna play with it some more over the next couple of days, but
right now, she's looking awfully good. Thanks for hanging in there
and supporting me!

PS Darn it, and here I never got to use my new multimeter! :roll:

PSS If you're using TOS 2.06, do you have to use the 6ms steprate
program?
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:32 am

Sweeeet... Most excellent. :cheers:

I guess there is a bit of truth in the statement that not all WD's can handle HD operation.

Did you use Soft-loaded TOS 2.06 for that 1.44Mb format? Looks like it.... pale green background...
edit: I reread your post... yes you did.

Interestingly, I have done a quick compare of your Stacy 1.04 with the normal 1.04... and the STacy has more blank areas?!!!
Definately different.

Reading raw hex is basically impossible so I can't tell you what/why is different. But the FDD step rate code is in the same place.

Love a good result. Goodjob Ron. Support is essential for people willing to take risks. You clearly have taken your STacy beyond
factory spec. Would be most cool if you get the T28 or PAK in there too!! (Or at least the basic 16mhz hybrid thing I've got installed)

How did your new backlight workout?

Keep up the great work.

ST.

PS, I'm fairly sure softloaded 2.06 doesn't need the 6ms step program. Certainly with the real ROMs I don't.

PPS, Also this means all 4 HD mods I've sent out are working. There are two more left. Complete with modded Sony drives.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby wongck » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:17 pm

DarkLord wrote:My guess...hunch really, is the only thing that is different now is
that I'm actually using an Ajax chip instead of the original WD1772.


Was the original WD1772 a WD1772PH02-02 ?
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:33 pm

Yeah, Page 19, Darklord posted a pic showing it certainly was.

Strange eh.. the 02-02 is supposed to be the better type.

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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:56 pm

ralcool wrote:Sweeeet... Most excellent. :cheers:

I guess there is a bit of truth in the statement that not all WD's can handle HD operation.


Apparently. I had read various posts from other peoples experience with this chips, and
it certainly seems hit or miss. You did read the part where Ajax chips are supposedly just
WD1772s that survived a stress test, right?

ralcool wrote:Did you use Soft-loaded TOS 2.06 for that 1.44Mb format? Looks like it.... pale green background...
edit: I reread your post... yes you did.


Yep. I ran it from a floppy. Didn't try running it from the AUTO folder yet. I was using the version
that PPera made for you.

ralcool wrote:Interestingly, I have done a quick compare of your Stacy 1.04 with the normal 1.04... and the STacy has more blank areas?!!! Definitely different.

Reading raw hex is basically impossible so I can't tell you what/why is different. But the FDD step rate code is in the same place.


I guess Brad at Best Electronics was right then. He told me it was different. It came up when I was asking him about installing one of those TOS 2.06 adaptor boards in my STacy. He said while it would work with all the other ST models, it wouldn't work with a STacy, and that was partly because of the STacy's odd TOS version.

ralcool wrote:Love a good result. Good job Ron. Support is essential for people willing to take risks. You clearly have taken your STacy beyond factory spec. Would be most cool if you get the T28 or PAK in there too!! (Or at least the basic 16mhz hybrid thing I've got installed)


Thanks! I'm working on the T-accelerator. I honestly think I've just about got it licked. I'll have to see about the PAK when it gets here. What kind of shape its in, what's missing, and what it takes to install it. One nice thing is that the steps I've already taken to get the STacy ready for the T-board is pretty much what I would have to do to install the PAK so that's out of the way (moving the power supply).

ralcool wrote:How did your new backlight workout?

Keep up the great work.

ST.


Well, my initial "power on" tests looked good. Won't really know until I actually
get it all reassembled, but I think this part is gonna be fine.

ralcool wrote:PS, I'm fairly sure softloaded 2.06 doesn't need the 6ms step program. Certainly with the real ROMs I don't.


Okay, cool. One less thing to have to fool with. :)

ralcool wrote:PPS, Also this means all 4 HD mods I've sent out are working. There are two more left. Complete with modded Sony drives.


Absolutely, someone needs to jump all over these - great mod, high quality work, and better tech support than any large company I've ever dealt with! :)

Thanks again.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:02 pm

wongck wrote:
DarkLord wrote:My guess...hunch really, is the only thing that is different now is
that I'm actually using an Ajax chip instead of the original WD1772.


Was the original WD1772 a WD1772PH02-02 ?


Yes, another reason why it was puzzling that it didn't work
the first time around.

By all rights, it should have.

Ah, no worries though - its working now - I'm happy. :)
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:04 pm

ralcool wrote:Yeah, Page 19, Darklord posted a pic showing it certainly was.

Strange eh.. the 02-02 is supposed to be the better type.

ST.


Yep, it was the 02-02, and like you, I'd always heard it was the "good one".

What would be interesting, since that chip is socketed now, and if I had some
more 1772's lying around, would be to swap them out and see which ones
worked and which ones didn't.

Just for the fun of it. :)
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby wongck » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:39 pm

ralcool wrote:Yeah, Page 19, Darklord posted a pic showing it certainly was.
Strange eh.. the 02-02 is supposed to be the better type.
ST.


Silly me... I did a word search for WD1772PH02-02 before asking.
Obviously it can't search a photo :mrgreen:

Guess the Ajax are high-end 02-02 that tested to work at the higher speed.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:07 am

Heres here's a few bits I'm thinking about..

For Starters, If SoftLoaded 2.06 can run on a STacy- I can't see why the real ROMs won't. Only a test would tell......

Ajax chips are as far as I've ever read, are based on the WD design- but with at least two different part numbers.
I assume from two different sources outside of Western Digital... I'm guessing with perhaps a better silicon process,
reduced mask size... who really knows... but I've heard good for 32mhz.

I could burn the modified Ppera 2.06 to real roms.... I have it in my ST... along with the twisted IDE code too.
It contains the permanant HD format menu he hacked... (well actually I then took his modification, then applied it to 'SuperTOS 2.06')
Installed the Twisted IDE patch as well to create.... Super Dooper TOS 2.06 (Full window dragging, plus whatever other
fixes were done to it as well!)

Then you only need an address decoder board to run it. I have my old 68000 mounted retail 'kit', but there wouldn't be
enough room in the STacy for it under a T28 as well.

Darklord- You did say your CPU in the STacy was socketed?... or at least a socket fitted above it? (You'll need one for the T28 anyway...)
Want to try my old CPU mounted TOS 2.06 board..?.. just for fun right......? The thing should still work.....You plug it in, and run a TOS switch
program to enable it... or it can be hard wired 'ON'.... (Fitted with Super Dooper TOS 2.06 ROMs)... I'm not sure I want to actually sell it...
but just to try. :D

Now you only need the 'full' 4Mb of RAM and that beast is fully loaded! Atari bow your head. Portable MegaSTE nearly!

Interesting stuff...

:cheers:

edit:
Oh, PS... Reading the PAK 030 manual... Jumper J7 is for Rom disabling.... Maybe SoftTOS 2.06 will suffice.....
BUUUTTT, Although the manual is vague, I reckon, Installing Two chip 2.06 would look like,

Chip OO (LOL) in U13, and EO (LOH) in U12.

Socket U13 Does D0 - D7 datalines
Socket U12 Does D8 - D15.

2.06 is a 16bit TOS, so it makes some kind of sense. TT roms use all 32bits.

Hope this might help.

And Holy PPS... This thread/blog has nearly hit 9000 views.... I never planned on this..... I'd love to know who else is watching...
I appreciate it goes a bit off topic, or quiet sometimes, and maybe even hard to follow... but I don't mind. Help is never far away.

Peace and love guys!!! :cheers: Just here to help, but hey, you've helped me too!!!!! Seriously.

The 8/32Mhz overclock mod is fighting me endlessly... there is a logic fault I'm trying to pin down.... I'll get it eventually. Much fun.... ! :lol:
Then I plan to attempt the Joska 10mhz main board clock mod.... :twisted: , although I expect the video shifter to have a major complaint.....
Display distortions et al..... ( I already know to disable the 16mhz overclock {with my cool software switch .. hehe} before running AT-Speed C16...
otherwise major crashes result)

I DO wonder if 'Flai's ' STE problems are also WD1772 related.... We know his mod works on his STfm.... with the clock divider etc...
Damn. Such a minor detail really. Maybe we should stock up on Ajax chips for failed installations. Shredder11 are you listening?

Yes, Ian- I'll post you the prototype combo 16mhz overclock/ HD FDD, STE version mod- but I seriously can't do much to help you install it. You've seen how
easy things go wrong. (Tell me to send it... it will be in the post the next day, with a modified Sony drive- No charge other than postage- just make it work)
I just do not have an STE to validate the design..... Yes it works on my STFM... But Flai is proof nothing goes to plan.

Remember people... take 'baby' steps.... unlike Mark..(3 mods at once)... brave soul there..... Good work too mate. Most impressed. :)
He demonstrates confidence in cutting our beloved STs.

ST.
4160STFM, (Blitter, 4Mb RAM 72pin, 16Mhz OC, IDE, HD FDD, Quad TOS, LaScan, DS1216E Clock, AT-Speed C16, Tom Kirk PS2 mouse, MegaST Keyboard)
What Intel giveth, Microsoft taketh away
Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy
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ralcool
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:46 pm

ralcool wrote:Heres here's a few bits I'm thinking about..

For Starters, If SoftLoaded 2.06 can run on a STacy- I can't see why the real ROMs won't. Only a test would tell......


Agreed. I guess you'd have to disable the onboard 1.04 ROMs someway though? Maybe the problem is because the ROMs on the STacy are mounted on the BIOS board, same one that holds the RAM.

stacy_ram.jpg


ralcool wrote:Ajax chips are as far as I've ever read, are based on the WD design- but with at least two different part numbers.
I assume from two different sources outside of Western Digital... I'm guessing with perhaps a better silicon process,
reduced mask size... who really knows... but I've heard good for 32mhz.


http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/custom-i.htm (scroll down almost all the way to the bottom)

Here is a small excerpt (very interesting history!):

"Atari Japan Engineering challenge was to upgrade existing Atari TT Computers to the HD 1.44 Floppy Mechs without major circuit changes to the TT motherboards or major chip changes to on the TT Motherboards. What was finally decided, was to use hand selected / tested WD1772 chips and over clock them (run them at a faster chip clock speed 8Mhz to 16Mhz). The WD1772 chips were not originally designed run at the faster 16Mhz internal clock speed, but thru testing, some were found be able to run at the fast clock speed required for HD 1.44 Floppy operation. With some TT TOS Operating System upgrades (New version TT TOS), New 1.44 HD TT Floppy Disk mechs and the Hand selected / Tested WD1772 chips, Atari was able to upgrade all older / early 16Mhz Atari TT’s and Newer 32Mhz TT’s computers to the HD 1.44 Floppy Disk standard. "

<snip>

ralcool wrote:Darklord- You did say your CPU in the STacy was socketed?... or at least a socket fitted above it? (You'll need one for the T28 anyway...)
Want to try my old CPU mounted TOS 2.06 board..?.. just for fun right......? The thing should still work.....You plug it in, and run a TOS switch
program to enable it... or it can be hard wired 'ON'.... (Fitted with Super Dooper TOS 2.06 ROMs)... I'm not sure I want to actually sell it...
but just to try. :D

Now you only need the 'full' 4Mb of RAM and that beast is fully loaded! Atari bow your head. Portable MegaSTE nearly!

Interesting stuff...


Yep, the CPU is socketed. Most of the major chips on my STacy are socketed now. Its the way all ST's *should* have come from the factory!

It would be interesting to see what would happen with a TOS 2.06 board, but I'm probably just gonna soft-load TOS 2.06, since it seems to work.

Oh, I've got 4 megs of RAM. :)

ralcool wrote:edit:
Oh, PS... Reading the PAK 030 manual... Jumper J7 is for Rom disabling.... Maybe SoftTOS 2.06 will suffice.....
BUUUTTT, Although the manual is vague, I reckon, Installing Two chip 2.06 would look like,

Chip OO (LOL) in U13, and EO (LOH) in U12.

Socket U13 Does D0 - D7 datalines
Socket U12 Does D8 - D15.

2.06 is a 16bit TOS, so it makes some kind of sense. TT roms use all 32bits.

Hope this might help.


Absolutely. Can you read German? I guess you saw the thread where I "sort of" tried to translate
the German PDF...

ralcool wrote:And Holy PPS... This thread/blog has nearly hit 9000 views.... I never planned on this..... I'd love to know who else is watching...
I appreciate it goes a bit off topic, or quiet sometimes, and maybe even hard to follow... but I don't mind. Help is never far away.

Peace and love guys!!! :cheers: Just here to help, but hey, you've helped me too!!!!! Seriously.

The 8/32Mhz overclock mod is fighting me endlessly... there is a logic fault I'm trying to pin down.... I'll get it eventually. Much fun.... ! :lol:
Then I plan to attempt the Joska 10mhz main board clock mod.... :twisted: , although I expect the video shifter to have a major complaint.....
Display distortions et al.....

I DO wonder if 'Flai's ' STE problems are also WD1772 related.... We know his mod works on his STfm.... with the clock divider etc...
Damn. Such a minor detail really. Maybe we should stock up on Ajax chips for failed installations. Shredder11 are you listening?

ST.


Are you kidding? This has been one of the best threads ever on these forums. Fun, entertaining, and educational to boot! :)

BTW, Best Electronics has the Ajax chip on sale for $29.95 new, right now. Regularly $40.

Thanks as always! :)
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