Modified ST hassles

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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:07 pm

ralcool wrote:Hi guys, yes I do drop in.

Sounds like the HD detect line is playing up. I would first quickly restore the 8mhz signal back to the fdd controller and check it runs a normal drive first.

Or using a MM that measures frequency, see what is delivered to the clock input to the WD1772 with the HD drive fitted. DD vs HD disks.

Some pics of the install might help see any errors.

Unless something silly was cut or something- nothing too bad will have gone wrong.

ST.


Okay, so re-attach the pin leg that was cut on the WD1772, then use the original 720k drive to see if its working?

I've got a multimeter - honestly not too familiar with it - what should I look for?

Don't have a working camera right now - will see if I can borrow one and get some pics here asap.

Have to work tonight - will try to get back here in the next couple of days.

Thanks! :)
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby nativ » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:06 pm

Hi,

Is there a 1.44HD kit available for an STe running 2.06?

I have some PCee 1.44hd drives knocking about what else do I need?

Cheers

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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:04 pm

nativ wrote:Hi,

Is there a 1.44HD kit available for an STe running 2.06?

I have some PCee 1.44hd drives knocking about what else do I need?

Cheers

nativ


In an earlier post, Ralcool said he didn't care to make kits on demand.

Umm, as far as I know, this actually works better with TOS 2.06, because
of its included 1.44 support.

About the drives, they have to be set a certain way (go through this message
thread, you'll see where he discussed it at length).
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:08 am

Nice to be missed :)

@Darklord. A good recent meter will have a Hz function. Fair chance yours won't. So we can check instead the signals going to the mod.

From Pin 2 of the floppy cable connected to the mod we will see 5v or gnd. The drives' job is to select this. DD vs HD.

As long as the 8mhz input is being passed to the WD1772 when pin2 is grounded the original drive should work.

Otherwise yes, restoring the cut also provides 8mhz.

Checking the Pins on the Mod.
HDD1 will be gnd (pin 9 of the chip), if unconnected/no HD external drive.
HDD0 will gnd (pin 10) with a DD disk, 5v with a HD disk. Thus 8mhz for DD and 16mhz for HD.
DS1 will be 5v (pin 11) For A: drive use, unless B: drive is accessed when it will switch low. (gnd)

This logic controls the LS151 to pass the correct operating frequency.

A meter with a Hz (frequency) function could finally show us what / if any signal (8 or 16mhz) is getting to the WD1772, and when.
From the mod output pin 5.

Its only logic. We can work it out. Sounds like we're stuck in 16mhz and we can't load the driver yet. Getting control from the drive is key.

Assuming everything is correctly attached and working. Load a DD disk with the 6ms step driver in an auto folder, let it boot- or run manually. Now HD should work.

The T25 board is unreleated to this problem.

@nativ
I have two more 1.44Mb premodded drives and HD boards. You still need a mod board for STe.

Having TOS 2.06 is a bonus. Step rate is already taken care of.

I know a 16mhz clock signal is present on the motherboard from pin2 of the GSTMCU, but it is strangley little/never used by aftermarket. Some say it is weak.
It appears to enter pin 52 of the GSTShifter. Interestingly, Pin 53 recieves the main 32mhz clock.

At this time, I still don't have an STe to test with to prove mods. Like my Combo 16mhz OC + HD fdd mod. Uses easy 32mhz supply instead.

All the best.

ST.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:51 am

Okay, got to thinking about something else - don't know if it makes a difference or
not...I used stranded wiring, not solid. Would that affect the delivered signal or affect
it in any way, like impedance or? It was all I had handy around the house.

Now...something else. Also probably makes no difference whatsoever but, just to
cover all bases...The STacy was originally setup so that it could have -2- internal
floppy drives (one drive took the place of the space that the hard drive normally
occupied). Because of this, the floppy drive cable has -2- headers on it. Would
that make a difference? The 2nd header has a twisted pair of wires in the cable
going to it.

Dang, I really need to get a good camera.

Thanks.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:09 am

Okay, I removed hdd0 from pin2 of the floppy header cable. I temporarily reconnected
this wire, leaving hdd0 loose.

Attempting to boot up like this gives the same results as before. The access light on
the 1.44 mech comes on, kicks likes its opening the shutter on the floppy disk, then
no other sound. About a minute or 2 goes by, then the desktop comes up with the
usual Drive A and Drive B icons. Dbl-clicking either icon gives a "Drive X not responding
..." error message. Access light never goes off.

Now doing exactly the same as above, but with the stock 720k mech installed, the
floppy access light comes on, it the shutter sounds like its being opened, and the
drive actually sounds like its reading from the AUTO folder. However, it immediately
goes to a desktop with -no- Drive A or B icon. Access light does go off, and thats it.

Checked my multimeter - doesn't have freq. - I'll see if I can borrow one from a friend.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:40 am

Hmm.

Stranded wire is fine, I tend to use lots of old torn up IDE cables for various mods and crap.
Cheap and plentyful.

I'm wondering slightly if the STacy is wired for DS0 and not DS1 like most Ataris... (despite your modified cable.

Otherwise it would be interesting to know if the WD1772 is recieving a clock signal.

The original drive not working is a reasonable sign it isn't.

Leave HDD0 loose would result in the mod selecting 8mhz / normal operation.

Check again 8mhz is connected to the correct DMA chip clock (pin 39) of 8mhz?


Hope this helps.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:14 am

Okay, I ordered a digital camera, but in the meantime I borrowed a friend's Samsung.

I took pictures of everything that seemed to be relevant. Hope this can help you
figure out whats wrong.

Thanks! :)

SAM_1527.JPG


SAM_1529.JPG


SAM_1530.JPG


SAM_1531.JPG
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:34 am

Righty then.

Nice shots, easy to see the connections are in the right looking spots on the ICs.

What is tricky lacking is a wide angle view to check myself a pair of same coloured wires weren't crossed.

Is the 8mhz connnection on the DMA ok?. Looks a bit odd in the shot.

The mod was tested before being sent. So we should be ok.

Obviously you know which connector is for A: . And assume you tried both anyway.

(Slim possibility the original STacy FDD is actually set to DS1 like a PC.
I modded your Sony drive to DS0 so the other connector would 'fix' this change.

Have you check pin2 of the FDC at the join for voltage selection 0v DD / 5v HD?

Keep the clock lines as short as possible. I just wish you could test the clock entering the 1772.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:44 am

ralcool wrote:Righty then.

Nice shots, easy to see the connections are in the right looking spots on the ICs.

What is tricky lacking is a wide angle view to check myself a pair of same coloured wires weren't crossed.


Unfortunately, I was only able to borrow my friends Samsung for 1 night. I do have an Olympus ordered
from Tigerdirect - should be here this week and I'll take some wide angle shots with it laid out so you
can see the big picture.

ralcool wrote:Is the 8mhz connnection on the DMA ok?. Looks a bit odd in the shot.


I looked at it, seemed to be okay but I redid it anyways just in case. Didn't make any difference.

ralcool wrote:The mod was tested before being sent. So we should be ok.


Honestly, I just don't think that's the problem either.

ralcool wrote:Obviously you know which connector is for A: . And assume you tried both anyway.

(Slim possibility the original STacy FDD is actually set to DS1 like a PC.
I modded your Sony drive to DS0 so the other connector would 'fix' this change.


I switched HD0 and HD1 out to see what effect it had. It didn't work but does show
different behavior.

With HD0 hooked up, the shutter opens like its reading the drive, the drive light comes
on, stays on, never goes off. It eventually times out to the desktop with Drive A and B
icons showing. Clicking on these results in a "Drive X not responding" message.

With HD1 hooked up, the shutter opens like its reading the drive, the drive light comes
on, stays on, never goes off. It goes to a white screen and never progresses any further.

This is with a 1.44 floppy disk and a 720k Atari disk with the step program in the AUTO
folder. Don't think the step program gets to do anything though, because on either its
not really being read.

I also tried all the above combo's with the 2nd header on the FDC. No difference.

ralcool wrote:Have you check pin2 of the FDC at the join for voltage selection 0v DD / 5v HD?
Keep the clock lines as short as possible. I just wish you could test the clock entering the 1772.

Hope this helps.

ST.


No, I've not - can I do that with the bare multimeter I have? Give me a step by step rundown on
how to do it and I'll try.

I can shorten up the clock lines from what they are. What would be the symptoms if they were
too long?

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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:20 am

Well, we have to tackle this in stages using what you do have, and might scrounge.

First a decent paper clip we can cut/mod to make into a solid bridge wire.

Then,
We can short the 8mhz and clk output wires on the plug to restore 8mhz.

That is your green and white looking wires next to the red one.
Just make vitally sure they are correctly connected.

(You green is either 16mhz or 8mhz easy to see- but you have 3 white... triple check)

You will notice my pin out 'overlay' diagram in the instructions reflect this.

Then the original FDD should finally return to normal operation.

It has to- this mod board we're putting in is only to select a clock. Those other wires are going nowhere now
with it removed. We've restored our 8mhz signal/cut.

No need to do anything other than unplug the mod board and attempt to get the 720k FDD working
by restoring the 8mhz clock through the added wiring via a jumper.

Leave pin2 connected and such. No affect in this situation.

At this stage it should be back to normal. Try the new FDD too. If DS0 jumpering is ok.

Success?, We could perform another test. (Leave the jumper in place)

I'd leave the now connected? 1.44MB drive, still without the mod connected.

I would clip on lead of the MM in DC mode to the exposed and twisted pin 2 wire, and the other to gnd.

Power up the ST.

Expect to see about 5v immediately with no or a HD disc inserted. Then basically gnd or 0v with a DD disk. (Maybe a few mV)

Try again with the mod connected. (Why because its' pull down resisters load the pin2 line)... obviously remove the jumper.

Now we will know if the switching signal is working. (We're not even trying to really boot here- just testing)

Check again at pin 10 of the chip, hi/lo changing as the DD disk is loaded and unloaded.

Is pin 9 at Gnd?... should be- its unused HDD1.... Also DS1 Pin 11 needs to be 5v at all times too. Unless B: is used.

Additionally, check power is getting to the mod, 5v at pin 16. And even a minor check across the chip to its gnd at pin 8.

8Mhz clock input is checkable by testing pins 2,3,4 & 14 for about 1.8-2.1v (They are all joined together- but all must work)
16Mhz clock is on pins 12,13,15 & 1. And much the same voltage suprisingly.

When checking my own mod here for output frequency voltage on pin 5, (from inserting or removing a DD disk) I notice about 0.1v change.
Enough to notice.

These checks would show 99% of likely causes. Outside of static damage, and overheated soldering. (Both highly unlikely)

I'll offer :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: - for luck.

ST.

Oh, and PS..... A reminder- counting pins on the chip.... look for the dot/notch at one end. Consider the notch the top.

The pin to its left is pin 1, and we count anticlockwise down around and up, the chip. 16 pins on the LS151.

1 * 16
2 15
3 14
4 13
5 12
6 11
7 10
8 9
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:37 am

Okay, got another day off work and had a chance to try some of this stuff.

I didn't get around to everything you listed, apologies for that, but I figure what
I did find should help proceed a bit further.

Using the paperclip to jumper the clock (white) and 8mhz (green), then booting
up with the original 720k drive, resulted in everything working perfectly. No problems,
straight to the desktop - able to access the floppy.

Powering down, switching from the 720k floppy to the 1.44 floppy. With a 1.44 floppy
disk in, with a 720k disk in (step prg in AUTO folder), and no floppy in. Same result on
all 3 tests - shutter sounds like its opening, no further sound from drive, access light
comes on and stays on, never goes off. White screen, finally times out to a TOS desktop
with a Drive A and Drive B icon. Clicking on them results in a "Drive x not responding"
error message. (same behavior as with the mod plugged in, from the start).

Okay, now with the 1.44 floppy drive in place, and the jumper still in place of the mod, I
tried to use the multimeter to do a few of the simpler tests you posted. If I'm reading
it right, with the ground lead from the MM to the gnd wire/position on the internal P/S,
and the red lead touching the exposed pin2 wire from the FDC, I got zilch. Zero. No
reading whatsoever. I tried it with a 1.44 floppy disk, a 720k floppy disk and no disk.

Then I removed the jumper and reinstalled the mod. Tried it again with all the above.
Still nothing - zero on the multimeter.

Next, I checked pin 11 and pin 16 on the mod - both show what seems to be 5v on the
multimeter, assuming I'm reading it right.

That's all the tests I did for now - I figured you could look at these results and tell me
what you want me to try next.

Thanks!
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:02 am

Good then.

We have some useful progress. And the STacy is restorable. :)

Not getting power from Pin2 is bit puzzling. Regardless of mod connection.

This is a function of the modified drive.

Aside from that- did you try the 1.44Mb drive on the alternate FDC connector? Just to riddle me the DS0/1 setting.
While the jumper is is place ... ala no mod. To check DD booting from the new drive.

By rights, that new drive should run as a drop in replacement even without the mod.

I wonder if the STacy is different on the media detect line. I tweaked that in the new drive too. And easily un- doable. Cut/remove a link on the CTin switch.
IMG_1602Z.jpg


I didn't get an image of your drive, but it should look identical. Maybe also move pin2 detect directly to SW3 HDin. But later.

Its OK. We want to see DD booting first.

Cheers,

ST.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:18 am

As a little OT note... just Installed a 4 port USB3 VLI VL800 card in the ole P43 motherboard Q6600 last week.

Wow... external HDD speeds are -well, just like they were inside on Sata2. max 95MB/sec reads from a 2.5" 1TB Buffalo unit.

Cheap way to bring fast external connectivity. If only the home ethernet system was as quick!

I also bought a SATA6g controller for fun, but even my 2TB WD can't use up even SATA2 bandwidth to even need it.
(Nor can the PCIe x1 1.0 lanes off an ICH9/10 etc controller keep it, or the USB3 chip properly fed with data anyway)

As much as I'd love a true SSD, I'll wait until 1TB+ hybrids are on the market. (Like its hard to make- c'mon Seagate desktops need lovin' too!)
The brilliant Hybrid XT 2.5" has been around for a year now!

Just playing around. :)

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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:50 pm

Okay, I pulled the mod and added the paperclip bridge back to the green and white
wire (8mhz and clock).

I hooked the 1.44 meg floppy drive back up, first to the 1st header on the FDC, then
to the 2nd header on the FDC. In both cases, using either the 1.44 floppy disk or the
720k floppy disk, doesn't work. However, its behavior is a little bit different with the
mod out and the paperclip in. The 1.44 floppy drive makes a sound with the 1.44
floppy disk in, almost like the head is trying to read the disk (this is beyond the shutter
opening sound). Also, it does not make this reading kind of sound with the 720k disk,
only the 1.44 one.

I used the multimeter and checked gnd and pin2 on the FDC with the paperclip bridge
and the 1.44 floppy disk drive in place. I got zero readings again. I also checked it with
the drive plugged into both headers on the floppy drive cable. Same result, zero volts
reading.

I guess I should have took a picture of the bottom of my 720k floppy disk drive when I
had my friends camera here. Dang...sorry. The camera I ordered should be here soon.

I've got an idea - you can tell me if it will do any good or not. I've got a fully working
Mega ST that runs my BBS. I could try a couple of things. I could take the STacy's stock
720k floppy disk drive and put in the Mega ST just to see if it would work with other
ST's floppy setup. Then, I could take the 1.44 floppy disk drive you sent, and try it with
the Mega ST just to see if it would function as a drop-in 720k replacement.

Would this help?

I'll have to wait until my son wakes up (he works nightshift). The Mega ST is on a desk
in his room.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:58 am

Okay, just a follow up to my last post.

I took my Mega ST apart, removed the stock 720k floppy drive and installed the
720k floppy drive from my STacy. Booted up, read the disk, straight to the desktop.
No problems, no errors.

Took the STacy 720k floppy drive back out of the Mega ST, installed the 1.44 floppy
drive you sent me. Booted up - exhibited same behavior and problems as it did on
my STacy. In other words, access light comes on, stays on, never goes off, acts like
its trying to read the floppy disk but never does, finally times out to a TOS desktop
with the Drive A and Drive B icons that when clicked, gives the error message, "Drive
x not responding".

So...do I need to change the settings that you had made to the 1.44 floppy drive? If
so, give me detailed instructions on what to do and I'll take a shot at it.

Can't help but feel we're narrowing this problem down now. :)

PS I've got the 1.44 floppy drive apart (outer case removed) so I can see the ct-in
link. I think that's what you wanted me to break, but I'll wait until you tell me for
sure, now that we tried the 1.44 floppy drive in my Mega ST.

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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:04 am

At the very worst- I'll post you another drive. Well pretested. Doesn't bother me.

Ok, so the new 1.44Mb drive isn't working. Hmm.

So, yes... undo the CTin link. See if anything changes. Try to undo some changes on the drive.

Either cut it, or add some heat and lift it off. Easy.

Give it a test. Maybe just before then we'll recheck the DS0/1 jumpers. You'll see where I resoldered 'Sel0', instead of 'Sel1'

Should be on Sel0 as supplied. Modded so its just like an ST.

If it still fails after test. Then perhaps we might remove the Pin 2 jumper. And maybe alter it to feed from SW3 directly.

Heck I'll buy you a new Multimeter off ebay if I have too.

Got your back man. We'll hack, check, and mod this crap until it works.



ST.
Last edited by ralcool on Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:11 am

Okay, I did try them. So do you think I should sever the ct-in link on the 1.44 floppy
disk drive?

Thanks!
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:14 am

Hey, we're live here... got Skype?

I don't really think CTin will make a difference- but easy to try.

Live chat would make a great feature to the forum!
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:28 am

ralcool wrote:Hey, we're live here... got Skype?

I don't really think CTin will make a difference- but easy to try.

Live chat would make a great feature to the forum!


Sorry, don't have Skype - I do have a teamspeak2 server up, running on my 'Nix
box. We use it for our Guild in Guild Wars. :)

I agree, talking live via the forum would be awesome!

Okay, back to the drive. Hmm, so you don't think ct-in is the problem? Then what
do you think the reason is that it won't work with the Mega ST?

Thanks! :)
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:40 am

Honestly Ron, I dunno. It should.

Don't have teamspeak2 or any other version. Have a quick check of the sel0 link could you?
4160STFM, (Blitter, 4Mb RAM 72pin, 16Mhz OC, IDE, HD FDD, Quad TOS, LaScan, DS1216E Clock, AT-Speed C16, Tom Kirk PS2 mouse, MegaST Keyboard)
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Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:43 am

ralcool wrote:Honestly Ron, I dunno. It should.

Don't have teamspeak2 or any other version. Have a quick check of the sel0 link could you?


Okay, I'm (trying) to look at sel0. What should I be looking for? Dang these tired old eyes, that's so
tiny I'm gonna have to rummage up a magnifying glass just to see what it is.

Thanks.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:59 am

Checkout the pic I posted a bit earlier.

Right hand side, circled in red. Second down.
4160STFM, (Blitter, 4Mb RAM 72pin, 16Mhz OC, IDE, HD FDD, Quad TOS, LaScan, DS1216E Clock, AT-Speed C16, Tom Kirk PS2 mouse, MegaST Keyboard)
What Intel giveth, Microsoft taketh away
Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy
Don't let post count or join date fool you as to who is a newbie, and who knows what's what
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:03 pm

ralcool wrote:Checkout the pic I posted a bit earlier.

Right hand side, circled in red. Second down.


Okay, it looks like there is a small link (resistor?) there, at JC30?
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:27 pm

yeah, thats it. My attempt to setup the drive for ST use.

If you've cut CTin, then last is to remove the pin2 mod. Just remove that wire.

Attempt to use the drive as DD 720k.

Otherwise,,, its a pure PITA.

PS, edit... just thinking, use the ohm mode of you MM and ensure that JC30 link is working.
4160STFM, (Blitter, 4Mb RAM 72pin, 16Mhz OC, IDE, HD FDD, Quad TOS, LaScan, DS1216E Clock, AT-Speed C16, Tom Kirk PS2 mouse, MegaST Keyboard)
What Intel giveth, Microsoft taketh away
Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy
Don't let post count or join date fool you as to who is a newbie, and who knows what's what
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