Modified ST hassles

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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby 1024MAK » Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:16 pm

1024MAK wrote:At no point does Aly say why or how this works :( . As the Atari does not use pin 1, I can only presume that the drive does.

On part of a datasheet that I have for a Panasonic/Siemens drive (a second label {Siemens} is stuck over another label on the actual drive, the datasheet has the Panasonic name on it), model number JU-363, pin 1 is shown as an input "DISK CHANGE RESET". Alas, I do not have the whole document so I don't know much more :cry: . But on the datasheets for some other drives, pin 1 is not used for this function.


Well, I've had a look at two Sony MPF920 FDD's, which have PCB's just like that pictured in Aly's post / on her web site. On both pin one of the signal connector is not connected to any circuitry.
So I am now a bit confused :?
Was she routing a signal from the "CTIN" Cartridge In switch to pin 1, and then back to some extra circuitry elsewhere (like in the Atari) maybe? :?:
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby Shredder11 » Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:01 pm

I've read those other topics before and I quite like the idea of having MagiC in EPROM.

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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:02 am

1024MAK wrote:
1024MAK wrote:At no point does Aly say why or how this works :( . As the Atari does not use pin 1, I can only presume that the drive does.

On part of a datasheet that I have for a Panasonic/Siemens drive (a second label {Siemens} is stuck over another label on the actual drive, the datasheet has the Panasonic name on it), model number JU-363, pin 1 is shown as an input "DISK CHANGE RESET". Alas, I do not have the whole document so I don't know much more :cry: . But on the datasheets for some other drives, pin 1 is not used for this function.


Well, I've had a look at two Sony MPF920 FDD's, which have PCB's just like that pictured in Aly's post / on her web site. On both pin one of the signal connector is not connected to any circuitry.
So I am now a bit confused :?
Was she routing a signal from the "CTIN" Cartridge In switch to pin 1, and then back to some extra circuitry elsewhere (like in the Atari) maybe? :?:


I've been checking here too, Pin 1 of the floppy cable definately goes to gnd in the Atari... this mod shouldn't work. :?.. I just now collected a drive in the post.... I'll know more tonight.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:08 am

Hmmm.... Heres a work in progress bloggy thing while I'm having a smoke and a think.

You know its a little odd. So far the Sony drive I have is a MPF920.. not the '-E'... version.

The SH1 jumper ALWAYS has 5v on the unconnected pad- away from the pin 2 trace. (Regardless of the disk type inserted) So jumpering it only allows HD mode to work. 5v to pin 2 of the FDD socket.
Unconnected the ST just see 0v, and its in DD mode.

If I connect the HDD switch instead direct to the pin2... I have a small but correctable problem.. using 2.2 or 4.7k pull down resisters on the HDD board results in the voltage as low as 1.5v when it should be much higher. (Much like my Alps drive)... I use a 1Meg resister for it.. and now also for the Sony.. then its 4.8v in HD.. 0v in DD..... smaller pull downs suck to much current and the voltage suffers.

Ok. When I ordered the drives, I noticed some '-E' models, and a plain MPF920 for sale... I got both for tests.. the '-E' hasn't arrived yet.. So I'm interested to see what happens on it.
1024MAKs drive was a '-E' and the jumper worked.. so we have a minor difference here apparently.

My internal Pansonic drive only operates with the 2.2k or 4.7k resisters, with the drive modifed in a simlar way... switch direct to pin2. The 1Meg resister on it behaves in a way that DD mode won't work, it won't go low enough.

So there is a compromise value I need to find.... maybe 470k...

As far as the disk change is concerned... getting to it. I'm running the new Sony externally right now... and Pin 1 isn't even used on my cable- can't possibly do anything.
But disk change detect isn't operating correctly.

If I insert a disk on my internal drive and open A:... up comes the window afer a disk read. Close window, change disk... double click again, drive operates and NEW content appears on the new window.
Seems ok.

Do the same on either my external ALPs or the Sony drive, I need to press ESC to update the window contents. Otherwise it reopens the same. This is on my external cable, so I'll try again internally to see if results vary. TOS2.06 has some minor bugs with external drive access apparently, so maybe adding to the issue.

HOWEVER, IF I use the WP switch and set to to protected, it operates correctly like A:, the Atari sees the change.. so ppera drive mod NANDing the two signals would probably work.

I can say that the CTIN switch Ali wired to/uses, is 5v without a disk, and 0v no disk... but sending that to the ST whose pin 1 is just grounded doesn't make ANY sense.

More testing.... (still externally btw)

Ok,
Here's the crazy reality... IF I SHORT the CTin switch (much like wiring it to pin1).. disk change somehow operates in software mode, and functions CORRECTLY! There you are.
In reality the switch pulls low the signal when a disk is in... we've stopped it going back to 5v when the disk is removed.

If I DON'T remove the disk, the window reappears after clicking without a disk read... remove and reinsert- it does... Wonder why... but there it is..! Solved but strange eh!

Ali was right, but the wiring method threw us a red herring.
Last edited by ralcool on Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:47 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby Shredder11 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:19 am

Mine are the E and Z revision models; both fully enclosed so not sure of what the boards are like without opening up. The label on the Z model does not show MPF920-Z just MPF920 with the Z shown at the top of the label. The other drive clearly shows MPF920-E as one model description on one line.

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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:34 am

By that description.. mines a Z model... top of label 'Z/131'

Interesting... drive is functioning perfectly now... using 1meg resister on the HD mod, and the shorted CTin switch.

I'll be further interested to see how the older E model operates the SH1 jumper.

ps, Sorry for all the editing up there.. I'm just getting the wording right... :oops:

IMG_1551s.jpg


This drive hasn't had the DS0/1 jumper shifted.. my cables are set to DS1... but they would be for anyone else for proper 'internal' use.

You can see the short on the CTin pins, and the wire from the HD switch to Pin 2 of the connector.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby 1024MAK » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:13 am

This guy shorted the "SW2 CTIN" and "SW3 HDIN" switches - viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1515

Sony MPF920
Hm, in my efforts to work out what worked and what didn't (I had three drives I was playing with), I plain forgot to try a DD disk in the Sony MPF920 after I had soldered the SH1 pad! Since then I have only been using HD disks with it (having a DD external drive plugged in, I copied anything I needed from the DD disks, then returned the DD disks back to the computer room upstairs, the modified Atari is in the "electronics workshop" room next to the garage).
For the programs that I needed from the PC, I now of course used HD disks (oh how people forget how nice it is to have preformatted floppy disks).
Needless to say, I have just tested my Sony MPF920 with a DD disk, and guess what, the HD signal stays high :evil: .
I should say that I should have thought of this before, but hey, that's life :lol:

Another FDD drive that I got does the exact same thing. I will post pictures later...
Last edited by 1024MAK on Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:25 am

You'd only short the HDin SW3 switch if you only wanted 720k mode.... and use HD disks as DD without covering the hole.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:35 am

So Mark, alter the resisters on the HD mod to 1Meg, and add the wire like I showed. And remove the jumper.

Everything will be fine... (I wondered if you retested DD mode)

But yes, I usually only use 1.44Mb now! (Unless I'm writing *.msa, *.st images on the PC with floimage to DD disks for copying to the Atari..)
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby 1024MAK » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:00 am

Okay, here are the pictures...
FDD front view.jpg
FDD rear view.jpg
FDD inside view.jpg
FDD PCB.jpg


This drive came from http://www.ST-Freakz.co.uk (atarifreakz on ebay). It was already modified for DS0. There is no PCB "jumper" pad to enable a signal on pin 2, BUT this signal stays high all the time, with, or without a disk in the drive/ with or without a DD disk in the drive. I forget now what other tests I did (on another STFM it works fine with DD disks).
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:16 am

We can blame a lack of standards here... only one drive I ever had operated pin2 correctly.. an old High Density Teac FD-235 as recommended by the Elco kit... and even this required jumpering!

Since then, on either the Elco GAL based mod or this 74LS151 version, I have had to mod every drive to use that pin properly. Now I'm discovering further differences, and how to connect it.

At least if I make these HD boards, we can use a common drive (Sony)- and support it correctly.
I've been testing this Sony drive now for nearly 5hours, and its working perfectly.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby 1024MAK » Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:39 pm

HD signalling
What I find strange is why drive manufactures bother to provide a signal from a IC if it stays high all the time. If you've going to do this, a simple pull up resistor to the +5V line would do.
The other possible answer, is that this HD signal is actually an input, but with a pull up circuit (normally in the IC). The signal staying high then makes more sense. Indeed, on the datasheets that I have for some HD drives pin 2 is a input, and can be used to select which HD mode to use. Note that I don't have all the drives that these datasheets relate to.
Most datasheets give the input impedance as 1KΩ.
On the Sony MPF920 measuring the resistance between the +5V connection and the SH1 pad on the IC side (with the drive unconnected) gives a resistance of 1KΩ.

If you have a look at download/file.php?id=3988, you will see that both systems are used. So pin 2 could be N/C, HD Density Select (input to drive) or HD OUT output to controller (computer)!

SAMSUNG SFD-321B
Pin 2 - Density Select (input to drive)
This signal is used to distinguish between 1.6MB and 2MB Mode.
The interface pin No.2 can be used as Density Select Input signal by
attaching 0 Ω resistor onto "OPA" short plug when the High density media
is inserted. The "HIGH" level designates 2MB Mode and the "LOW" level
designates 1.6MB Mode. FDD can tell whether the inserted media is high
or Low density by checking the signal coming from mechanical switch which
detects the density selecting hole on the media.

No Media / Density output signal is provided.

CITIZEN Model: Z1DA-78A
Pin 4 - MEDIA (HD) (output from drive)
Media
This signal is changed by Media Type as follows;
2.0MB Media (HD Media): LOW
1.0MB Media (DD Media): HIGH

Pins 1, 2, 6, 14 are all shown as RESERVED.

TEAC FD-235HF-A429
Strange one this. The datasheet talks about a HD OUT output, but the drive does not have a pin on the connector with this signal!
Pins 1, 2, 4, 6, 10, 14, NC (no connection)

Datasheet says this
Disk Change - LOW (TRUE) when Power on and the disk is removed.
Signal returns to FALSE when a disk has been installed and a STEP command is received when the DS signal is TRUE.

Input/Output signals for density mode setting (HD OUT)
Every FDD model, there are any basic methods for setting the density mode of the FDD as shown in the following.
Use the applicable method for the FDD in contents shown below.
(1) Method A without using any interface signal (OPEN)
(a) Interface signal is not used between the FDD and host-controller.
Density mode of the FDD and host system are determined independently.
(b) Density mode of the FDD is automatically set by discriminating the HD hole of an installed disk. If the density mode of the FDD is not coincident with that of the host controller, data errors always occur at read operation.
(2) Method B using HD OUT output signal
(a) Density mode of the FDD is automatically set by discriminating the HD hole of an installed disk.
(b) HIGH or LOW level of the HD OUT signal from the FDD is used to inform host controller which type of disk is installed in the FDD. And the density mode of the host is automatically determined according to this signal.


Code: Select all

Signal name    Logic level      LOW LEVEL at HIGH DENSITY
HD OUT         HIGH             2DD disk
               LOW              2HD disk
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:43 am

Its no wonder the makers of my original 'Elco HD' mod specified not all drive would work... :evil:

That Alps drive is basically identical to the one I using here. (Got it working too, just wired to a point on the pcb labeled HD2- cut also the trace previously going to pin2, and used a 1Meg resister on the HD board)

Pic
IMG_1565s.jpg
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:14 am

Nothing exciting to report, other than today I managed to format a 85track, 22 sector HD disk at 1.9Mb capacity from the Sony drive! Works well... the current internal Panasonic drive has fits trying to achieve this....Doesn't like running at 22 sectors.....Thus the Sony is better.?!

ps, The other Sony drives I ordered still haven't arrived.. but tomorrow (Mon) is a new day.
As soon as they turn up, I can mod the drives, and ship the current two orders.
Ala Zack, and Darklord.

Out of interest, I did create some 29F010 roms for 2chip TOS 1.4 use- modified/wired like Kym suggested... works nice. (But pin 1 not required for connecting to Vcc when flash roms are used..)
Zacksworld will recieve a set for his HD kit... Hopefully we'll get some further feedback when he manages to install it.

Otherwise i haven't done any exciting Atari mod stuff of late.. been busy with the kids and another project.... Custom Guitar Amplifier for a mate. Many hours spent there. Nearly finished.

Soon I hope to install the 16mhz cpu and experiment with running an 8/32mhz overclock on it :D .. just removing the motherboad- to remove the cpu is unnerving task. And requires further removing /un-socketing the now quite stable / latest mods to achieve it. I plan to solder the new cpu direct to the motherboard for clearance reasons, and then add a socket again on top- like it has now- to mount things like the C16 and other cpu mounted type goodies. (Like my address line adapter)

Golly. 8O, I just haven't been in the mood. :mrgreen:

ps, I've also being TRYING to source long pin 40pin sockets to make some 72pin shifter mounted ram upgrades available... and also to finalise the 'combo' HD/16mhz upgrade board for ST/STE use... the prototype is tested and done with some high speed type 74AC74 chips for the clock circuit... but I'm having some family related delays getting much else done. Sorry guys. :(
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby Shredder11 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:15 pm

Custom guitar amp? What stuff did he want it to do? I'm curious as I am a guitar player with my own rackmount setup and 4x12 cab; been playing since 1991.

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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:52 am

Nothing fancy... its a rebuild of an existing previously homebuilt unit. The circuit inside were 'kits' released in around '73... no documentation, not working- and I can't get replacement op-amps.

So, I got a hold of some new kits ... A nice recently designed ~200w class AB amp stage, and a proper guitar preamp board with tone controls etc. Could yet get the optional 'digital reverb' pcb too.

So far its nearly built, no hum- clean and powerful.... just have to fit the pots to the front panel for the controls.

Cheaper than a 'pro' unit, and has a MASSIVE pair of speakers in the equally massive box. Bloody musos!

.....

The 4 Sony drives arrived today... I'll mod them up tonight, and post some pics of the finished 'package'.

Happy days.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby zackworld » Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:27 am

ralcool wrote:
Out of interest, I did create some 29F010 roms for 2chip TOS 1.4 use- modified/wired like Kym suggested... works nice. (But pin 1 not required for connecting to Vcc when flash roms are used..)
Zacksworld will recieve a set for his HD kit... Hopefully we'll get some further feedback when he manages to install it.



You Betcha :D

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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:10 pm

Sorry.. been busy researching an important old/new project with fresh inspiring unexpected input... And dividing my time as usual.... No this project isn't Atari related but important to many- and perhaps might finally be the end of 15years searching & experimentation. At least one person here may know what I'm talking about...Mr Shredder.

Don't worry, I'm still hanging around- but I have to get busy in the other part of my workshop, and start using the tools again. (plus call in a few favours) And set myself up for another new, expensive, unknown result- but done much differently. Ask me later what I'm doing... I still don't want / can't answer that- only a basic plan for now. (Now THATS a project/teaser..hehe, lets just say all this making of pcbs is practicing for something much different) Don't blame me, I'm obsessively compulsive when it comes to useful open source hardware designs...maybe you've noticed. :mrgreen:

In the past months, I achieved more than I expected with my ST, its faster, and running hardware I dreamed of years ago. (IDE, and finally again Overscan), Now I have my new mouse, and the improved TOS. Repairs to the machine have been successful.... Woot.. :D

While I still have some unfinished plans, they might take longer than originally realised. I will continue to experiment.. but I don't want to hurt the old girl- cutting up much more of the motherboard!
The cpu will be swapped eventually, and I'll play with 32mhz operation. But not much else is really wanted. (Working MiNT would be nice, and perhaps internet via CAB for the fun of it)
..........

The Sony drives are modified, tested, and ready to ship. Only four, and two are already spoken for. And enough HD kits to run them.

I'll post them out on Monday and look forward to how everything works out. Thats you Zack and Darklord....!

Forever yours, Sean.

PS. Again, I'm not leaving...just announcing my change of tack plans... This is normal for me, and great results like we have experienced- gives me momentum to do new things or retry old things in a fresh mind. I have lots of projects sitting on the boil, and the rare opportunity of time to achieve them. (I love my 'Boss' - an understanding individual who can afford me such privileges).

PPS. If I go quiet don't be too suprised. I'll let you know whats happening. Much luv. :cheers:
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:19 am

Ok, sounds good - just lemme know the total and I'll get it to ya - Paypal ok
or did you want different arrangements?

Thanks much ! :)
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:31 pm

OK, some pics... E model Sony drives vs Z.

'E' version
Image

'Z' version
Image

They behave the same. The mods work equally well.

Save these pics for future use. Higher res available if you need it.

Short CTin for disk change detection, shift the DS0/1 jumper to 0-for normal ST use, and wire pin2 to either the switch or the point shown on the pcb for HD disk detect in 'output' mode.
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:28 pm

For info, here is the basic HD kit.


Image

A Sony pre-modified drive, perhaps a modded TOS 1.2 or 1.4 Lo-0 rom for 6ms steprate for 6chip TOS (or even a complete altered 6ms steprate 2chip modifed 32pin 29F010 TOS1.4 set) , and the actual mod circuit/pcb, plus instructions.

Two left to go. More if demand askes for it. ( Parts enough for another 3 HD boards, and also able to create 2 x 16mhz overclock circuits, and still 1x Lascan board available)

:cheers:
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ralcool
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby ralcool » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:39 am

Out of morning boredom. I decided to Google where I live to see what is said about the place

Found this nice little webpage- I thought I'd show you too.

http://www.lavershillanddistrict.org/default.htm

Welcome to my tiny Town. Remote, Quiet, and above all Peaceful.

We have a school, a post office, a pub, and about 190 residents- many you never see. Being a junction on the Great Ocean Road we see a lot of people/tourists passing by. Some days its a ghost town.
At 1500ft ASL, some (many) days we sit in cloud and can barely see anything for the 'fog'. Reminds me of that PS1 game Silent Hill.

And at 1900mm of annual rainfall, your feet are always wet :) There is no 'town' water... everyone has a tank/dam.

:cheers:
4160STFM, (Blitter, 4Mb RAM 72pin, 16Mhz OC, IDE, HD FDD, Quad TOS, LaScan, DS1216E Clock, AT-Speed C16, Tom Kirk PS2 mouse, MegaST Keyboard)
What Intel giveth, Microsoft taketh away
Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy
Don't let post count or join date fool you as to who is a newbie, and who knows what's what

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wongck
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby wongck » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:45 am

ralcool wrote:At 1500ft ASL, some (many) days we sit in cloud and can barely see anything for the 'fog'. Reminds me of that PS1 game Silent Hill.


Ahhh .... I wish to be at 1500 ft, ought to be cool temperature.... nice.... :thumbs:
I'm stuck at sea level in a concrete jungle.... choke on bus fumes.... :(
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1024MAK
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby 1024MAK » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:37 pm

Getting wet (normal British summer!), being baked (only when the British weather decides to actually have a summer), "enjoying" traffic fumes, walking along loose stone formations in the city, town and countryside.
At night in the dark winter freezing when outside, then inside sweating as my mates have the heating on max because its cold.
Having just worked a long night turn and watching the sun come up over the horizon while attempting to say awake...
Ghost town? Yep not many people about at 05:00 (local time) on Christmas morning no mater where we are...
Or maybe you like being all alone in a damp cutting in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night?
But better than a horse/cow sneaking up behind you and then snorting - scared the life out of me and my two mates! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Best of all, enjoying my time off. Bit of a change of pace. Nice and lazy if I want.
Ah the joys of life :D
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Re: Modified ST hassles

Postby DarkLord » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:01 pm

View from one of our lakes "over here" (Jenny Wiley - you can google for who she was).

Jenny Wiley Lake01.jpg


Jenny Wiley Lake02.jpg


Sorry if this all went a bit offtopic. :)
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