Atari st series computers conversion PC

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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby joska » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:36 pm

bob1969 wrote:Hi,

I just have another idea.

I will try to connect raw and colunns to row and columns of an old IBM PC keyboard controler
and remap with a remapping software


Been there, done that :) I did it to a Stacy keyboard several years ago. It's a lot of work and having to remap the keyboard is a pain.
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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby wongck » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:49 pm

bid wrote:its a great ST to PC conversion!! :D

yeap it's great. I want to do the same to my STFM. :mrgreen:
That's what they are talking about here.
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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby AxelG » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:42 am

Hi!

@Bit, @Fred: This whole fred is about a proven, simple and working ST keyboard conversion (hence an ST PC conversion follows), using just Joskas fast and simple micro controller (Arduino/Teensy) adapter. :coffe: :lol:

Fast, cheap and working. And much less work than any wire based solution.

Just my 2 cents,
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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby bid » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:09 pm

wongck wrote:
bid wrote:its a great ST to PC conversion!! :D

yeap it's great. I want to do the same to my STFM. :mrgreen:
That's what they are talking about here.


Ahh. I had not read the 10 pages of thread, but saw the title, and thought that people should know about the Atari Turkye design, as its the best I have seen.

AxelG wrote:@Bit, @Fred: This whole fred is about a proven, simple and working ST keyboard conversion (hence an ST PC conversion follows), using just Joskas fast and simple micro controller (Arduino/Teensy) adapter. :coffe: :lol:
Fast, cheap and working. And much less work than any wire based solution.
Just my 2 cents,


IMHO, your 2 cents are correct. I understand little about the Teensy. But the Arduino, I think, although far more powerful than required, is the ideal board for the job. And I will tell (bore) you why:- (ahem)

1. The Arduino is very popular, and can be ordered pre-assembled and complete for a very low price.
2. Even the most technology adverse and non-programmer/electronics-ist (is that a word?) person, could download the Arduino 'Sketch' (the actual microcontroller code) and flash it to the built in chip. How? Well its easy. The Audiuno is designed to program from USB of your main PC, and its as simple as loading the sketch into the free and open-source software for your PC, and then plugging in the Audiuno with the supplied USB cable, and selecting the program button. Simples!
3. There are a range of low-cost "Shields" for the device here http://shieldlist.org/ that I am sure would make connection of the required connections easier, IF, there was needed say a PS2 connector, or another connector that was felt necessary, there are shields with 'standard' connectors or even "screw down terminal blocks (so just the wire colour instructions are needed to connect the ST keyboard"), or maybe .... and I am just looking at a unencased standard ST keyboard now ... the connector on it looks like it will go straight onto the PCB header on the basic Auduino board... maybe the power line needs to be clipped and removed, but thats all!
4. The basic Auduino has a USB port, but it would possible to either
i) program a standard Microsoft compliant driver for USB into the Auduino (harder, unless sketch can be nicked from elsewhere) - or -
ii) read and convert the signals generated from the Atari keyboard and translate to the serial code used in PS2 connections (which is a very basic code used in IMB contemptables, and Intels since the 8086 I think!!)

This would certainly help to make a very faithful Atari ST to PC upgrade possible, and open it up to anyone who wants one just by uploading the sketch, and one or two simple and easy to follow wiring diagrams. I appoligise if I am repeating anything, but I only had enough patience/time to read through the first 4 pages of this looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong thread. 8)
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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby joska » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:34 pm

bid wrote:IMHO, your 2 cents are correct. I understand little about the Teensy. But the Arduino, I think, although far more powerful than required, is the ideal board for the job. And I will tell (bore) you why:- (ahem)


The Arduino doesn't have proper USB, only a USB->serial chip. So you'll have a hard time emulating USB HID devices. On the Teensy (google "Teensyduino" for more info) you have everything an Arduino has and even more. It has proper USB and you get a lot of stuff for free. It has more memory, more I/O pins and it's cheaper. So if you want to convert a ST/TT-keyboard to USB, you can do it easily with a $14 Teensy.
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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby bid » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:06 pm

joska wrote:The Arduino doesn't have proper USB, only a USB->serial chip. So you'll have a hard time emulating USB HID devices. On the Teensy (google "Teensyduino" for more info) you have everything an Arduino has and even more. It has proper USB and you get a lot of stuff for free. It has more memory, more I/O pins and it's cheaper. So if you want to convert a ST/TT-keyboard to USB, you can do it easily with a $14 Teensy.


Cool. I have just had a look at it. What a great little board! ... It does look ideal for this, and more so than Arduino in this particular application.

I am a little sad, as it looks like its not as designed for the absoloute hobbiest, like the Auduino, so I doubt that I would be able to program it for example. But then looking again, they have a so called Teensyduino http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/teensyduino.html , so maybe there is something for a interested tinkerer also.

Wow, its so great that we have these all-in-one development boards now. I bet these are really getting people interested in electronics. I would love to learn more about this, and its beyond belief what can be done with these things. The whole development world has really opened up for everyone, and I think that this is a really interesting and inspiring technology revolution.

What would you suggest writing this in? Would you use C or the simplified 'wiring' language?
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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby joska » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:13 pm

bid wrote:I am a little sad, as it looks like its not as designed for the absoloute hobbiest, like the Auduino, so I doubt that I would be able to program it for example. But then looking again, they have a so called Teensyduino http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/teensyduino.html , so maybe there is something for a interested tinkerer also.


If you use the Teensyduino add-on, you will be able to program it almost exactly like an Arduino. You're even using the Arduino IDE.

bid wrote:What would you suggest writing this in? Would you use C or the simplified 'wiring' language?


The Teensy is usually - like the Ardunio - programmed in C and C++. The "simplified" language is nothing but C and C++ and the Arduino library. I prefer to use the Arduino/Teensyduino-stuff, as it allows for faster development. But for some things I'm bypassing the Arduino/Teensyduino libraries.
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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby bid » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:23 pm

.... Oh man... And on a separate topic all together... This has given me a great idea for a product that EVERYONE will love. Using the same product, but not for making a PC, something else. And dead easy to programme. It will probably only take me 6-12 months lol. But I'm gonna make it. I'll tell you what it is when im done!! (or if I get stuck!). 8O
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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby gilles504 » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:11 am

Hello,
I needed a enclosure for my new low power web server & I remembered this thread.
I found a dead yellowed 520STF somewhere in my stock
I dremeled a bit (not easy on this plastic that tend to melt at low temperature...).
Now I'm here:


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The motherboard is a very small 1.1GHz VIA with a CF underneath and that can boot from usb for OS installation.

Even if it's not very important for this project (It will mostly be a web server). I want to use original keyboard and mouse. I already have a teensy 1.0 but it is probably too small for the firmware. I'll buy a teensy ++ if needed but I now need the firmware itself ;) May I have it?

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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby joska » Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:19 pm

gilles504 wrote:Even if it's not very important for this project (It will mostly be a web server). I want to use original keyboard and mouse. I already have a teensy 1.0 but it is probably too small for the firmware. I'll buy a teensy ++ if needed but I now need the firmware itself ;) May I have it?


If the Teensy 1.0 can act as a USB keyboard then it will do. The firmware is quite small. See attachment. You will need the Teensyduino software to compile it, for some reason my Teensyduino setup broke when I upgraded Ubuntu to 11.10 so I can't compile it myself right now.

ST_tastatur_USB.zip
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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby gilles504 » Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:32 pm

teensy 1.0 (and clones, mine is a dealextreme clone) are based on avr 90usb162. They also can act as keyboard + mouse but are limited to 16kb for the flash memory (and 512b for sram I think).
at first glance I think this firmware will work on teensy 1.0. If not I'll try to adapt and send it back.
Many thanks, I'll try tomorrow :) (or tonight if I can)

With my ubuntu 11.x I must be root to use the teensy loader and use command line tool (just made it blink for now). Even if the udev is correctly defined. I did not tried yet the arduino + teensyduino under 11.x.

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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby joska » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:41 pm

I just checked the specs myself and it does indeed only have 512 bytes of SRAM. That's too little for the current implementation of my firmware. Maybe it will work if you move the scancode lookup-table to flash.

Btw the problem with Teensyduino under Ubuntu 11.10 is related to the compiler and not the loader. Teensyduino-code won't compile.

Edit: is this your "Teensy"? http://www.dealextreme.com/p/designer-s-teensy-usb-development-board-for-ps3-47609 It's more expensive than an original Teensy 2.0 from PJRC...
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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby gilles504 » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:56 pm

shiping for pjrc is 6.98$ with a teensy 2.0 at 16$ while DX is free for a teensy 1.0 at 16.80$ .
but now I would probably buy directly to pjrc, at that time I used DX because I bought some other devices to them (mostly nintendo DS parts).

[edit]
I compiled and flashed the teensy 1.0 with no (apparent) error. I'll try to wire tomorrow.
The graphical teensyloader does not work for me but command line is ok. (must stop graphical teensyloader to avoid flash errors).
Same on my 2 ubuntu boxes (one 11.x and one 10.10)

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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby gilles504 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:26 pm

Works out of the box with teensy 1.0 for keyboard 8)
I'm now typing with my old "saw detachable" 520 STF keyboard (ok not glad about the sawcut :oops: but I was young when it happened)
Mouse partly works but with weird moves and it crashes the whole after a while (need to unplug usb).
Maybe the RAM size is a problem ?
anyway a PS2 mouse will do the job for this project.

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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby joska » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:33 pm

That's cool :) The mouse problem is not related to lack of memory, it behaves the same on a Teensy 2. It's a buffer overrun on the serial port, and I haven't figured out how to avoid it.
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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby gilles504 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:56 pm

maybe you could get infos from ST and add/truncate them and only send to usb every 1/50 sec ?

more photos, project almost complete:

Holes were filed with plastic (from a box of surimi :lol: ) hotglued as an ST should be ;)

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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby gilles504 » Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:40 am

This PC/Atari is now my little (silent) web server with a debian 5
It hosts 3 joomla sites + svn repository (for my micro business + hobbies)

http://alternative-system.dyndns.org
http://www.precise-data.fr

I also installed and tested Hatari, works fine (could also work with the original monitor since this card can even boot in 15KHz)

My keyboard is a bit erratic but it's a keyboard defect, if I push the 6301 it works again for a while.

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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby Scottinnh » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:57 am

joska wrote:
bid wrote:IMHO, your 2 cents are correct. I understand little about the Teensy. But the Arduino, I think, although far more powerful than required, is the ideal board for the job. And I will tell (bore) you why:- (ahem)


The Arduino doesn't have proper USB, only a USB->serial chip. So you'll have a hard time emulating USB HID devices. On the Teensy (google "Teensyduino" for more info) you have everything an Arduino has and even more. It has proper USB and you get a lot of stuff for free. It has more memory, more I/O pins and it's cheaper. So if you want to convert a ST/TT-keyboard to USB, you can do it easily with a $14 Teensy.


Hi Joska,

About USB->serial, your Arduino information is outdated. It's true the older Arduino's used a FTDI chip preprogrammed to act as a USB Serial chip.
The new Arduinos (such as the Uno) REPLACES the FTDI chip with a re-programmable ATMega8U2.

This all means - yes - you can make any Uno appear as any USB device, such as a USB game controller, flash drive, USB MIDI, etc. not just a serial port device.
See here: http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardUno
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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby joska » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:42 am

Scottinnh wrote:About USB->serial, your Arduino information is outdated. It's true the older Arduino's used a FTDI chip preprogrammed to act as a USB Serial chip.
The new Arduinos (such as the Uno) REPLACES the FTDI chip with a re-programmable ATMega8U2.

This all means - yes - you can make any Uno appear as any USB device, such as a USB game controller, flash drive, USB MIDI, etc. not just a serial port device.
See here: http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardUno


You are both right and wrong. True, the new Ardunio Uno has a more flexible USB chip. But it's a separate chip with it's own firmware that can't be programmed using the Arduino IDE, and it can't be programmed from the Atmega. Also, the Uno still has an Atmega328 which talks to the USB-chip through serial. And there's no simple, ready-made USB-solution besides the serial conversion.

So the Teensy is still a much better solution if you want to do USB-stuff. It's fully supported by the LUFA library (Google it), and it comes with very easy to use libraries for keyboard, mouse, joystick and mass storage devices. The USB is integrated in the controller itself, so it can manage 12Mbit/s while the Arduino Uno is still limited by the serial connection between the Atmega and the USB controller.

Also, the Teensy has more RAM, more flash, more interrupt-pins and more analog input pins. And it costs about the same as a cheap Arduino-clone on eBay.

The downside is the pin arrangement, which makes it less breadboard-friendly than the Arduino Nano. But I still prefer the Teensy.
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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby spiny » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:50 am

right, i've finally got round to ordering a 'teeny' from the states (from pjrc.com) so hopefully in the next few weeks I can get my Mega keyboard USB'd and connected to my PC :)

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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby gilles504 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:51 am

spiny wrote:right, i've finally got round to ordering a 'teeny' from the states (from pjrc.com) so hopefully in the next few weeks I can get my Mega keyboard USB'd and connected to my PC :)

The delay was around 3weeks for France. I now have real teensy (2.0 and ++ with pins) ;)
Note that the custom information is correct (and the item is not the traditionnal chinese "Gift" or "Commercial sample" with 0€ value).

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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby spiny » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:08 am

neat, the kit turned up today :D time to get re-reading this thread ... expect questions !

cheers :)

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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby spiny » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:57 pm

ok, i've been playing with this tonight and got all the tutorials working (leds etc) and have just tried joskas .hex firmware and now i'm stuck.

I have the wires like this:

teensy.png


the keyboard lights up, so i'm assuming the 5v and gnd are right at least ... but i see no keypresses.
I'm on Win7 and in control panel i see a new 'usb HID keyboard device'

I have also tried swapping the Tx and Rx over, but still nothing, what am I missing ? :)
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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby spiny » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:10 am

heh, fixed :D

I compiled the source that joska posted up there ^ and i'm now typing on my st keyboard :D

awesome !

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Re: Atari st series computers conversion PC

Postby spiny » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:42 pm

does anyone have a diagram for the pinout of the Mega keyboard lead ?

cheers :)


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