Another failed ST -> vga experiment for me :)

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simbo

Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby simbo » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:52 pm

i can do this for you as its not too hard
ill make the pcb for a couple of cost $ and post ill run off 5 for now incase others want one
you get the bits localy from digikey there is a list on the site
and its a nice solder job ..!!! easy using a pencil tip iron and an eye loop if needed {i use one}
the rest is clear
the problem is i need the stacy schematic to advice where to connect it inside
fine if you have the rgb section
or its back to using the port

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Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby Poobah » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:53 pm

You will get the 'dancing pixels' problem with the AD724/725

The ST sync signals don't have all the parts that the AD needs to properly maintain accurate timing when operating asynchronously.

You'd need to divide down the shifter clock to the appropriate NTSC or PAL frequency (fc for the 724, 4fc for the 725) to maintain timing.

simbo

Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby simbo » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:15 am

ye i remember now why i deleted the board i made up before from the ad things
thats why i cant find it in my archives....

anyway

here is a picture of the kit i made if you would like one
it contains all the correct bits you need except the crystal and filter bpf
for the usa stacy you would need two different ones however i know exactly where to find it
i still have i think four pcbs left


http://uk.geocities.com/vsmlibs/ATARI_S ... ECODER.zip
and dont unpack it on the desktop
move it to the root dir of the drive and right click choose extract here
youll also need if you want to view schematics and layouts a copy
of proteus vsm demo from the labcenter.co.uk site

here is the design i made to accoumplish this in 2007
posted and got shot down
i still have a few of the boards i made using the mc13077p big brother of the 1377p has separate outputs
quite a rare chip i still have i think four left and two more made up boards
i made over 100 of these for many machines that use non interlaced video for a certain museum video wall drive setup
take a look at the project files download ~1.2MB
contains tools pcb designs schematics theory etc etc etc details

it does im sad to sad however work perfectly to provide component svideo and composite

for three sets of outputs you can just stick it in a box externaly add three 75R termination resistors to RGB in
and bingo
it needs nothing special inside the atari
for the stacy youll need the schematic and maybe also an Xor gate to give csync
{clean the sync up and add hsync vsync together} to drive this ic much as the mc1377 needs

if i thought there was a market for it i would make them up again
i still have in total about 20 ic laying in the supplier i can use maybe 6 here and this one and pcb;s are easy to make
lots of pal crystals and chokes bpf just no u/s ones left i did have 25 of each sadly all used up

i dont think the stacy will have a 14.318 180 MHz. crystal internal to it {maybe} if it does you wont need a crystal
and you can use this subcarrier signal as the boards referance also {better by far as they lock together}
just leaves the band pass filter
TOKO H286BAlS–6276DAD bpf
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simbo

Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby simbo » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:05 am

so to recap on the topic in hand

darklord

you need a 7in satnav link above {i saw it cheep $30 less on ebay}
you need one of these boards with added correct crystal {if needed} and bpf
you need a stacy schematic

this i feel is a great upgrade providing some actual features injections to the good old stacy unit..!!

once you appreciate these little unit features your all gona want to sink a 7" satnav into your atari today

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Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby DarkLord » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:10 am

Simbo, thank you for all the time and effort in trying to help. Sadly, I don't think I have
the technical skills to make something like this. I surely wish I did. :(

On another note - I was looking at the link to the 7" Satnav...

in the description, it says its resolution is this:

480 x 234

Does that mean it would -not- be able to do ST Medium resolution?

Thanks.
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simbo

Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby simbo » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:53 am

screen resolution is always independant of system resolution using svideo
{the lcd will deal with the avalible picture sync to scale and fill the screen area avalible }
avalible means what gets used
as atari desktop uses less than a game most ofter
for many reasons too much to delve into

it will display it but med res will be scalled to size this is never a big issue!!!
becouse most digital Tv's lcd's do this anyway
the resolution of the satnav's lcd is fixed at that resolution ...
one thing we all overlook is the boarders
im sure the driver ic on the stacy will remove them for the panel to show full size

if you cant build it i can help but... not fit it im affraid?? im at a loss to understand how your going to replace the lcd
you must use rgb or svideo signals for colour so this will involve routing either a single mini coax up
thru to the screen lid or rgb signals {5 wires} this is easy using an old laptop cable {very thin these days}
most colour lcd that accept ttl {like cga vga etc} rgb sadly dont allow sub carrier itterated pal/ntsc encoded rgb

some will accept direct svideo pal actual straight to the panel so
no need for support electronics just a screen
this is the way the car and plane train ones work
so keep looking
but youll still need svideo either way .. sorry man.,..

i am sure 100% the lcd fitted to the stacy has a propriotory driver chip
that is on the stacys main board and also two lcd controllers on the panel
this is the usual arrangement

and will not easly interface to a colour or more modern one
without rgb signals
as the data rate /protocol etc of the driver chip is for mono addressing the lcd screen
it is usualy built from two controllers and most of these stacys will show two halfs of a picture
on the lcd bottom and top


i can build it i cant test it i dont have ntsc stuff
but i can help you fit it on msn !!! or skype
thats why the good old web cam is a great pal...

but the schematic is needed!!

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Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby Anemos » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:56 am

so.. i have also one of this converter a few days before..
the first think is bad,same problem black screen on everything to connect on it!
the second .. after to checking everything for faults (caps,smd,ect..) from first looking all looks fine.. but! one random moment i pressing with my fingers the CPU and the board start to display colors on the monitor!! :mrgreen:
so.. i found 3 of pins in central CPU (perhaps the RGB lines) near to R39 smd ! i re-soldering with my super thin point soldering gun,and all working perfect! PS3 via component ,my camera via component (HDMI) .
Now, testing my Amiga and AtariST ,and i have screen via RGB,and composite,but not stable.. the screen has little flicker and some times flashing..
I have test also via RGB HV, but the board not lock the signal,only if i change the screen resolution via menu showing but whit wrong and soft colors (like more red-white),im on it and i continue the tests..
Atari 1040 STE - 4mb - TOS 1.62
Atari 1040 STF - 1mb - TOS 1.00

simbo

Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby simbo » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:47 am

ok

there is a few issues with this board
first is the rgb vh signals
and second is cga

the rgb S {cga} inputs are TTL levels however the atari is analogue video levels but will cope with 15khz
the rgb hv input is analogue {.7vp-p) however wont cope with the 15khz sync ataris produce in lower resolutions
{hence the black picture but solid sync .7v aint much if your expecting 0-5v}


so
what you need to do is use a NOR gate to get mixed sync from h and v sync outputs from the atari
use the cga
but convert the video levels with a video level converter from analogue to ttl
as 0v =black {not hard to do}

then this card will work fine
it does for me however medium resolution has an issue as the cga input seems a little tempremental
if you change resolution you must auto scan again

its a good card if you have an old jamma board say asteroids or something {ebay 10-50 quid}
and what to use it


oh and another thing atari video expects a terminated load however the inputs on these boards
dont have termination so the colours will look washed out
if you add three 75R resistors one to each colour input at the board
then connect the other end to ground this will clean up the poor colour saturation

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Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby DarkLord » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:24 am

Okey-dokey...

Simbo I finally got around to buying that other power supply that you so kindly
provided a link to for this board.

I got it in, hooked it up, and tried it out. There is a red light that comes on
the board itself, but my monitor says "no signal".

Playing with the buttons, I can get the (chinese) menu to come up on the monitor.

I can make the yellow arrow move up and down - but don't know how to select any
thing. I tried pressing Auto over and over but nothing comes up - just a black screen.

I tried adjusting the pots, no difference either. I dunno, maybe it just doesn't like me. :)

This is on my STacy, which works fine hooked up to the same monitor, using the Avery
VGA to RGB converter (for low rez it works fine that is, med rez has all kinds of problems).

Well, that's my report/update for now. :)
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Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby Anemos » Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:35 pm

As with the Amiga this converter is wayward and Atari, and generally to video signals of home-micros.
I managed to finally show a fairly good picture but having a little flickering (in games do not seem so ..)

youtube:>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6v89LahLc8

schematic
Image
Atari 1040 STE - 4mb - TOS 1.62
Atari 1040 STF - 1mb - TOS 1.00

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Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby Hippy Dave » Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:02 pm

Do not place the 1uF capacitor between the horizontal sync and vertical sync, as this makes an a.c. short circuit between them and loads the "glue" ic which can cause further problems.

simbo

Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby simbo » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:43 pm

you can use a sync combiner like a exor gate and another one of its gates after it to invert back
the circuit below springs to mind and may cure your remaining flicker also some sort of shielded box and grounding will help

the cap isnt a good idea for the above reason


i tried that method using mixed sync by removing the video carrier from the composite output
as above cut a resistor use the composite pin
however it flickers terrible worse than a tv by far worse than scart
maybe i missed something
im using an ibm square lcd and a asus widescreen type for tests

ill give your method a go
cheers!! :cheers:

after a small think
ive never tried just adding something like 510R in series with hsync and vsync inputs to that board
and dont use the mixed sync
GND>>>>GND
Vsync>>res510R>>>Vsyncin>>
Hsync>>res510R>>>Hsyncin>>
R>>R
G>>G
B>>B

looking at the spec for the board i see it only requires .7v sync
however the atari provides 1.7v or more sync level
so maybe over drives the inputs to the chipset on the board
and also maybe loads the sync providers in the atari
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Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby Anemos » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:37 am

simbo wrote:
and dont use the mixed sync
GND>>>>GND
Vsync>>res510R>>>Vsyncin>>
Hsync>>res510R>>>Hsyncin>>
R>>R
G>>G
B>>B



hi simbo
i have try more to 50 choice with out mixed sync, resistors,caps,on Hs & Vs but not result.
so, what type of compatible gates can i use for mixed sync?
Atari 1040 STE - 4mb - TOS 1.62
Atari 1040 STF - 1mb - TOS 1.00

simbo

Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby simbo » Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:35 am

74LS86 there is one in an atari anyway
youll pick up mixed sync at i think pin2 of the mc1377p
or if you cut one resistor the composite pin will output mixed sync only at its pin on the video plug
this is what i did and added a jumper

i think the levels are very crytical if you have a scope you could measure the sync level volts
see whats going on with the working example and this is a good indication whats needed
ill try to duplicate your results this evening and use the scope i have here

AHHHH i see where im going wrong with just cutting the resistor with the ste

there is a section of the board in the schematic has a transistor and two diodes etc
to provide sync at the composite pin of the video socket
however these parts are only there if there is no modulator fitted {ste}

so try to get sync from pin2 mc1377
ive tried this before
not sure how the level is it comes from an inverter so i think it will be TTL level of sync
and youll need to attenuate it
using a T pad of three resistors

looking further you can if you like do this mod to reuse one of the spare gates in the chip on the ste

you need to cut and lift pins 4 and 5 of u209 chip 74ls86
connect pin4 to pin 3
this routes the mixed sync to our spare gate pin
now connect pin 5 to +5v vcc

and youll get a fresh TTL level mixed sync at pin 6

pin 6 isnt connected to anything but test its not grounded
it says its not in the schematic


you can fit a small socket to the rear or reuse one of the video connector pins
and output it via a Tpad

using something like 3X470R forming a T or you maybe should use 1 variable 470R or something
the gounding resistor in the T is the target for a pot to be added to trim the output
im sure you can use a LCD multimeter set to AC volts to measure the sync level
this will give you the RMS voltage level to multiply the figure by 1.414 to get peek to peek voltage


in T out
...^ ground

for the stfm
inside the modulator can is ic2 the 74LS86
it will have spare gates at 1,2 in 3 out 4,5in 6 out
you can reuse one
this avoids loading the drive to the modulator
i cant see in the schematics if its spare in pins are grounded
so just cut and lift up pins 1 and 2 and connect pin1 to pin 11
pin 2 to vcc and get the ttl level mixed sync at pin 3
again via a T pad etc to a socket

for the ST machine {no modulator or 74ls86}
youll need to apply the circuit i propose above
adding a small bypass capacitor close to pin 14{vcc } and connected to pin 7 also {ground}
i forgot to add one to the design 100nF is fine

simbo

Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby simbo » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:54 am

i have one of these very cheep boards

its worth buying

ive not had a few day's to get it right for all stX
i recon
three resistors and one ic
is needed to add the sync

ill do this tomorrow
hence bringing it to the top

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Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby DrCoolZic » Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:12 pm

I am about to try the GBS-8220 see ebay 250593772430 (description speak of CH-6220 but contacted vendor and behind is the same) 35$ + 7$ shipping to france

What is the status concerning usage of GBS-8220 ?

Anemos did you succeed with this board ?

Simbo information refer to usage of signal from MC1377. However I do not have system with RF modulator and therefore this section of the board is not populated?
Is there a viable solution without MC1377?

see also http://www.preromanbritain.com/gwem/mar ... y/conv.htm
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17488&start=125#p162523
http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/14 ... 0003e45369

simbo

Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby simbo » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:23 pm

ok so

if you look in unstuffed modulator version
this is replaced by composite pin2 becomes mixed sync only
and outputs at about 1vp-p
however TTL sync is 5v \ 2 = 2.5v so will go from .74 to 3.2v or more...
so will be if decoupled via a ceramic cap 3.2 - .74 (float) or 2.3vp-p too much
and over drives the units sync input

so this is why i think the ste with no modulator and the bits stuff to replace it
maybe works the same as the st

so a small pcb that mixes sync using a small singal npn transistor and some in914 diodes etc is
a way yo achieve both good ste fix and st machines protection of there glue chip
{i dont think fitting a 1uf cap accross both sync is a good idea }


and is negative going {i think}
i think this is the issue between st and st appart from pal secam and ntsc slight differance

im working just now on a stx fix for this
just needed some time to break out the scope and some tests

first thing is duplicate the sucess using an st
i have 3 different revisitons so ill give it a try later tonight and see whats working

ive already had animated frames using the gbs card with ste
however not very stable so ill work on using the scope and see whats going on

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Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby DrCoolZic » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:50 pm

Thanks Simbo this is interesting information. Seems like the sync signals from Atari and the usage of even number of scan lines is causing lots of trouble for converters...
Not to mention non standard output voltages!

I am considering to add the missing MC1377 and associated logic on an STE board to output s-video components. I did not considered it initially because I thought it would be difficult to find the inductors (and may be the MC1377?). However it looks like we do not need the inductors as explained by ppera in http://ppera.07x.net/atari/stvid.php. This is a more "standard" usage of the MC1377 to get the luma and chroma outputs directly from the chips and therefore have a s-video output suppose to be better than a composite video.
I first need to look carefully to the PCB to see how hard it is to be done

I do not know if it is still possible to get a MC1377 circuit at a reasonable price?

simbo

Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby simbo » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:56 pm

mixed sync from vsync and hsync at the video socket of st or ste
with a modulator
without you get this anyway at pin2 {gpoutput or mixed sync only if no modulator fitted}
here is a schematic and layout on pcb 17mm by 15.5mm
{print and size }

very easy to make using a pen and a bit of board
or vero

its the circuit from the ste

ill make one tomorrow
as it seems to have the right rotation and level needed to drive mixed sync

i think this adapter needs from what i read .7vp-p as a sync level
the ste outputs about 1v p-p
so i think may overdrive the sync input at the gbs
looking at the board the hsync {mixed sync } pin
goes direct to an i/o on the scaller {i think the i/o will be set as a-d mode???}

so i added a 75R resistor between the output of this circuit and ground
to divide 1 by .75
a bc182 is 350mw same thing as the ones used in atari 2n3904

...

i think its more too do with negative and positive going sync


adding a 75 ohm resistor between the output side of the 100R resistor in the schematic
and ground will then allow only .75vpp for 1v in to it
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Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby DrCoolZic » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:01 am

For people having STE without modulator we already have the composite sync. Right
In that case does the GBS works? Just need to put a 75 ohm resistor to gnd to divide tension ?

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Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby wongck » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:21 pm

IIRM, there's a composite from my 520STFM and I was using it to run my green monitor.
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Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby DrCoolZic » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:40 pm

simbo wrote:in the ste is another mod you can do simply cut R439
this will deliver mixed sync compsite polarity to the video socket pin 2 composite out

Actually if you have an R439 on your board that means that you have an STE with modulator and therefore this imply that you do NOT have the circuitry for delivering the composite sync (Q406 and related). So in that case cutting R439 will result in no signals at all on pin2.

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Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby DrCoolZic » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:44 pm

atarian90 wrote:Darklord,

It looks like we are both on the same quest. 8)

It looks like I have the same board, but it's from a different vendor. My guess is that there is a OEM manufacturer who builds them and then licenses it out. My board is red instead of green, but otherwise, looks exactly the same. The specs and manual look exactly the same too.

Unfortunately, my results are not good. :( This is what I got.

IMG_8000.JPG


IMG_7996.JPG


IMG_7997.JPG


IMG_8001.JPG


The funny thing is that the board detects a combined sync coming out of the ST. It displays a pattern of solid colors and other garbage. Once in a while, you can see the desktop, but it too is skewed and full of garbage as seen in the picture directly above.

I next switch the input to separate sync output (which is what the ST normally outputs), and here, the picture is either all red or green and keeps rolling top to bottom. In addition, the screen is not stable as you can see in the middle two pictures above.

I've checked my soldering and pin connections to make sure I didn't make a mistake, but it looks good to me. I actually made two cables - one connected to the white internal header, and the other to the D-Sub 15 pin input port. Both yielded the same result.

I don't know what else to do. :cry:


Unfortunately I am getting exactly the same results :(
For the sync I have tried to use Vsync & HSync or HSync or CSync (composite sync) and none works.
I have also noticed that the video displayed seems to be frozen?

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Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby DrCoolZic » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:50 pm

simbo wrote:if you notice it wont support 15.75khz so its no use for atari st machines
or mega ste or mega st without graphics addons
..............................ST High.......ST Low/Medium
Vertical refresh rate.....72 Hz........50 or 60 Hz
Horizontal refresh rate..31.5 Khz.....15.75 Khz

Are you sure I thought that High resolution was HRR=35.7KHz and VRR=71.2Hz


however i simply doubled the hsync pulses and got a resonable picture
and a good frame lock

Can you elaborate on how you did that

it pisses me off that each time i turn it on the menus are again in chinese etc..
seems to have no nvram for settings

This is strange on my unit it remembers all the setting (language, resolution,...)
Does your board says rev 3.0 Jan 2010

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Re: Another failed ST -> vga experiement for me :)

Postby DrCoolZic » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:59 pm

Anemos wrote:As with the Amiga this converter is wayward and Atari, and generally to video signals of home-micros.
I managed to finally show a fairly good picture but having a little flickering (in games do not seem so ..)

youtube:>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6v89LahLc8

schematic
Image

Do you have an Atari with RF modulator?
If not you should have a composite sync signal on pin 2 that must be close to what you describe above.
How did you came to 510 Ohms resistor ? experiment.
I am connecting the composite sync (Atari DIN pin 2) to the Sync of the GBS8220 but the system does not synchronize


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