Yamaha SCSI-IDE on Mega STE

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Yamaha SCSI-IDE on Mega STE

Postby ppera » Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:10 am

Here was mentioned in some threads that people successfully use some Yamaha SCSI-IDE adapters on some Atari machines.

I bothered yesterday with one Yamaha (nice shielded) adapter, and thing worked not.
I tried it with 3 disks - 128MB IDE-FLASH, CF via adapter and normal hard disk. In all cases it detected drive model, but detected not (all) partitions. Data transfer was not possible - it froze after some half second.
Hddriver complained that can not get drive's capacity, other prog. get some weird values.
And there is of course 1GB limit with built in (Atari) ACSI-SCSI adapter.

All it looks that it is not usable on Mega STE, because of it's limited ACSI-SCSI adapter...

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Postby alexh » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:36 am

I've never tried to use the Yamaha one, but which model was it?

The V769970??

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Postby PaulB » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:44 am

My one's work great. I had to limit the 2.5' hard drives total partition capacity to 1gb though because of the limits of the internal host. I use the other one externally with the Link on a cdrw but I also tried it once with a dual layer dvd-rw and it also worked fine. Never tried burning to the dvd/cd rw though.

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Postby Fujiyama » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:46 am

The problem might be with the ACSI to SCSI adapter inside the MegaSTe.
Do you have a Link 96 or Link 97 you could try it with?

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Postby Fujiyama » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:51 am

PaulB wrote:My one's work great. I had to limit the 2.5' hard drives total partition capacity to 1gb though because of the limits of the internal host. I use the other one externally with the Link on a cdrw but I also tried it once with a dual layer dvd-rw and it also worked fine. Never tried burning to the dvd/cd rw though.


Great stuff!
Could you post some more details about your setup please?

- software/drivers for hard drive and DVD/CD-ROM drives
- brand & model of CD-RW and DVD-RW drives
- type of SCSI host adapter

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Postby PaulB » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:12 am

Mega STE using standard Atari internal host. TOS 2.06. 4Mb.
Yamaha SCSI-IDE converter model V769970.
3.5" to 2.5" IDE adapter.
Fujitsu MHK2060AT 2.5" 6gb hard drive.

For the hard disk driver I'm using ICD Pro 6.5.5 . I remember why I used that now instead of HD Driver. It was because I could partition the whole 6gb of the drive and ICD Pro has the ability to effectively swap the partition that's currently in use so I can access every partition on the drive, just as long as the total space used at one time dosen't exceeed 1gb.

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For the CDRW driver I'm using Extendos Gold 3.2 connected externally via a Link 1 host connected to an external box with another Yamaha convertor plugged into the back of an LG GCE-8160B IDE CDRW.

I tried the DVD burner on the Atari when I first bought it (just to read a dvd movie disk). After finding out that it works I promptly placed it into my PC. It's a Phillips Lightscribe dual layer model. Can't really be bothered to open the case to find out the model number but if it's really important to anyone I will :D

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Postby Mug UK » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:32 am

Today's project is to connect my external Yamaha boxed CD-writer (SCSI) to the back of SatanDisk and get Extendos to recognise it :)

Photo's (if successful) to follow :)
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ppera

Postby ppera » Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:07 pm

alexh wrote:I've never tried to use the Yamaha one, but which model was it?

The V769970??


Yes, it is exactly same model.
I concluded that data transfer on SCSI line is unreliable. It can succesfully copy shorter files from couple hunders bytes, by longer freezes (with all drivers). Interesting is that putting/removing termination jumper changes nothing...

I tried even to attach hard disk on end of SCSI cable (because of termination) . nothing changed. Then tried with very short, some 6cm long SCSI cable - same.

Is my Mega STE with some crappy adapter? - but hard disks work fine.

Would grounding case of Yamaha adapter with thicker wire make it better?

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Postby alexh » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:20 pm

If it makes any difference I have checked and I too have ICD Pro 6.5.5 with my ACARD SCSI->IDE adapter.

ppera

Postby ppera » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:49 pm

I tested it little more on PC. With Flash cards (Transcend IDE-Flash and Sandisk CF) it is same bad work. But 40GB Maxtor, 'normal' works flawless. Speed is some 16MB/sec in Win XP. CD/DVD is recognised as Yamaha CDR, but appears not in XP. That drive has first partition over 2GB, what is likely reason why detected not it on Mega ST and it's limited to 1GB adapter.

So, it looks that is good only for regular hard disks, with DISKS...

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Postby mikro » Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:08 pm

ppera: that's funny some amiga guy had on the other side feeling it works only with cd drives ;-)

i'm reaplying to this since I bought the same model (v769970) and it behaves strange. I didn't do many tests but for some really strange reason hddriver 8.20 couldn't detect any partitions on my 40 GB IDE harddisk.

it detects capacity, don't complain about anything but I can't try to partition it since on that hdd is all my coding stuff ;-)

did you make any progress with this? my testing machine is (for the moment) tt030. i'll try to make another tests but I'd very interested about the other's experiences.

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Postby jens » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:37 pm

mikro wrote:i'm reaplying to this since I bought the same model (v769970) and it behaves strange. I didn't do many tests but for some really strange reason hddriver 8.20 couldn't detect any partitions on my 40 GB IDE harddisk.

I had problems with HdDriver recognizing my new 120 gig Toshiba drive on the Falcon.
So I first installed Scsitool (Hushi), then went on with HdDriver, and everything's fine now.
Greetings, Jens

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Postby mikro » Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:21 am

hmm, at least I solved one strange thing, i.e. that incompatibility with IDE drives.

it seems this yamaha coverter swap byte order! That means if I partition IDE drive in Falcon's IDE interface with "swap bytes" option and then plug it into scsi->ide converter, i see that parititions.

question is, how to deal with this? i mean, i can't use byte-swapped partitions under normal atari IDE setup, can i?

another thing I observed -- under MegaSTE, with Link96, HD Driver tells me there's nothing more than 1 GB space on whole disk (with 2 GB CF card).

previous posts mentioned this, too, but it was given as a cause of incomplete scsi implementation in mega ste's original adapter.

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Postby jens » Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:00 am

Hmmm - I know of people who had more than one gig attached to STs via a Link 9x adapter.
Maybe even via an old ICD adapter, but I'm not too certain about that.
Maybe that's due to the difference between TOS 2.06 Mega/STe and TOS 2.06 ST.
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ppera

Postby ppera » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:11 pm

mikro wrote:hmm, at least I solved one strange thing, i.e. that incompatibility with IDE drives.

it seems this yamaha coverter swap byte order! That means if I partition IDE drive in Falcon's IDE interface with "swap bytes" option and then plug it into scsi->ide converter, i see that parititions.

question is, how to deal with this? i mean, i can't use byte-swapped partitions under normal atari IDE setup, can i?

another thing I observed -- under MegaSTE, with Link96, HD Driver tells me there's nothing more than 1 GB space on whole disk (with 2 GB CF card).

previous posts mentioned this, too, but it was given as a cause of incomplete scsi implementation in mega ste's original adapter.


Hddriver will work with byte-swapped partitions well. I made driver for byte-swapped partitions (to read PC disks on ST, Falcon). I don't think that converter swaps bytes - because it works well on PCs too.
But, such, swapped disks should have DOS partition table, not AHDI one.

ACSI in original uses only 21 bits for sector address (LBA), therefore is limitation. But it is often hardware limit to, because many ACSI/SCSI adapters can not work with extended addressing. Mega STE's adapter is one of such limited.
Last edited by ppera on Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby PaulB » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:53 pm

Using ICD Pro I partitioned the whole of my 6gb ide drive connected to the Yamamha convertor but as Ppera says only 1gb is usable at any one time in my MegaSTE. Using ICD's desktop program I can swap the partitions that are in use and that way access the whole 6gb. I tried to partition the drive with Hddriver but the values it came up with were 1gb. It's just a shame that SatanDisk seems to be incompatible with other driver software.

Hopefully Ppera's new driver will sort this out.

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Re: Yamaha SCSI-IDE on Mega STE

Postby Crash » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:09 pm

Greetings,

I am trying to use one of these Yamaha V769970 50 Pin SCSI to IDE Converters inside a MegaSTE, but cannot get it to work. I have tried a variety of jumper setting combinations (termination, partity, and block size). I am trying to use an IDE to Compact Flash adapter and a card that is known to be compatible.

With the block size jumper on, HDDriver 8.16 recognizes the board as a Yamaha CD-DRV, but no partitions are found and attempts to partition fail due to the inability to determine the size of the media attached. ICD Pro Utilities 6.5.5 sees the same, and also no partitions and cannot partition the drive. Without the block size jumper, neither utility identifies this adapter or the connected drive.

Can anyone verify their working jumper settings? Also, are there any known firmware updates for this device?

Thanks

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Re: Yamaha SCSI-IDE on Mega STE

Postby Crash » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:20 am

Update:

It seems the problem may be specific to certain Compact Flash cards in combination with the Yamaha and MSTE. For example:

Sandisk Ultra II 1gb - not visible
Sandisk 512mb - will boot if previously partitioned and configured, but cannot be written to or repartitioned
Transcend 1gb - visible but cannot be partitioned (cannot write to administration sectors)
Transcend 2gb - can be partitioned (under 1gb capacity) and will autoboot and seems to function properly

Any insight? I guess I can use 2gb cards with this, it is just very strange that 512mb and 1gb cards appear to be incompatible.

Thanks

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Re:

Postby DarkLord » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:24 am

jens wrote:Hmmm - I know of people who had more than one gig attached to STs via a Link 9x adapter.
Maybe even via an old ICD adapter, but I'm not too certain about that.
Maybe that's due to the difference between TOS 2.06 Mega/STe and TOS 2.06 ST.


Actually, I think, (IIRC) the difference is the SCSI board on the Mega STe itself. It limits the
top end to 1 gig drives, if no mods (like ppera's) are done. Same for the STacy, which has
the same controller board.

I know my Mega ST4, with TOS 1.04, using a Link2 does a 4 gig drive nicely, Its what runs
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Re: Yamaha SCSI-IDE on Mega STE

Postby wongck » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:15 am

Crash wrote:Update:
Any insight? I guess I can use 2gb cards with this, it is just very strange that 512mb and 1gb cards appear to be incompatible.
Thanks


Something to do with the protocol between the CF card and the CF adapter. Most likely it's some UDMA access vs PIO access thingy.
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Re: Yamaha SCSI-IDE on Mega STE

Postby alexh » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:51 pm

It is possibly the FIXED : REMOVABLE attribute of the CF card. Try using an IDE hard drive and see if that works first.

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Re: Yamaha SCSI-IDE on Mega STE

Postby Crash » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:49 pm

As I mentioned, some removable CF cards seem to work fine, specifically the 2gb cards I have tested, while the 1gb version of the same brand and series does not work. An IDE hard drive will work, but the entire purpose of this effort is to get away from moving parts, and I'm fairly confident that new 1gb IDE hard drives are not going to be easy to find nor reliable, while 1gb compact flash cards are plentiful.

I had hoped that these things were standardized, but since that is not the case, I would like to find a brand and model of 1gb CF card that is compatible. So far Sandisk and Transcend cards are not.

Thanks

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Re: Yamaha SCSI-IDE on Mega STE

Postby alexh » Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:00 am

They are standardised. It's just the standard has moved on since the SCSI->IDE bridges were created.

CF cards are not true IDE devices. They normally function in "removable" mode, where they use a modified set of IDE commands and are prepared for hot plugging and removal (dependent on host software support). Some hardware/software/firmware requires the use of "fixed disk" mode, where the card instead uses standard IDE commands, at the expense of some features specific to the format. However not all cards can be switched to FIXED. (Most cannot!)

AFAIK Transcend 133X/266X/300X cards all identify themselves as FIXED. (or they used to)

SanDisk Extreme come shipped as REMOVABLE but there is a software util to convert to FIXED. You will need to boot DOS and run it with the CF configured as either the master on the primary IDE interface or the master on the secondary interface. It will not work if the drive is attached as a slave or to any other interfaces. To set a SanDisk Extreme adapter attached to the primary IDE interface to Fixed disk the program command is ATCFWCHG.COM /P /F

I am not saying this is the problem with this IDE->SCSI bridge you have. It is just one possible problem. But it is quite likely.

One company made an active CF->IDE adapter which converted all CF cards into FIXED. However that adapter is roughly 10x the price of passive adapters at €40.

http://www.jschoenfeld.com/products/trueide_e.htm

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Re: Yamaha SCSI-IDE on Mega STE

Postby Crash » Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:20 am

This is extremely helpful.

Is there any way to identify if a card is set as Fixed or Removable, with Windows for example?

Thanks

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Re: Yamaha SCSI-IDE on Mega STE

Postby Crash » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:49 am

FYI, the 1gb Transcend Compact Flash disk that I tested (that failed) is a 133x.


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