Extra PSG sound chip?

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Extra PSG sound chip?

Postby unseenmenace » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:45 am

Did I imagine this or is there a hardware mod to add a second YM2149 sound chip on an ST? I know there is a simple mod to allow stereo output from the PSG which I am thinking of doing but wondered what other mods were out there.
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Postby Greenious » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:28 pm

Afaik there is no such mod.

Although it would be easy to add an extra PSG. There is no software supporting it. Not that I know of anyway.

Personally, and also from what has been voiced from other people, I'd prefer a different soundchip as a second soundsource, not just another psg. With the revival of old school chip music, it would be cool having something else, like the YM-2151, which was used in many arcades.

But additional soundchips, and other potentially fun additions such as DSP, graphiccards etc makes little sense without software developers & users that are enthusiastic about it.
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Postby ppera » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:40 pm

I think that DMA in STE is much better than some another PSG (whatever type).
Not to mention DSP :D

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Postby MiggyMog » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:17 pm

IIRC TAO has few six channel tunes, maybe that's where thought came from?
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Postby bullis1 » Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:59 pm

I've never heard of anyone adding a second YM2149. Various D/As and DMA, sure, but not YM2149. I'd love to have a second YM2149, expecially if you could just plug it into the cartridge port or something.

Oh wait, I just remembered that I have used a second YM chip. It was because I controlled a second ST with Minimoo, via MIDI cable.

Anyway, I generally don't recommend making chiptunes that require extra hardware. Most people won't be able to listen to them then. If you plan on using it in a recording, rather than a pure chiptune, then It's great.

The best soundchip ever is definately the YMF262, aka the Yamaha OPL3. It's a pure FM masterpiece. Sorry for the derail.

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Postby mouse_master » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:57 pm

I don't know if you might be confusing this with a mod for the Atari 8-Bit to add a second pokey chip....

Just a thought

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Postby unseenmenace » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:22 pm

mouse_master wrote:I don't know if you might be confusing this with a mod for the Atari 8-Bit to add a second pokey chip....

The daft thing is I have a feeling I might be confusing it with the mod to add a second video shifter LOL. I was just going through some old notes regarding sound routine ideas I had and thought it would be cool to have more channels. Anyone ever considered trying to add a SID to an ST?
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Postby bullis1 » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:49 pm

unseenmenace wrote:Anyone ever considered trying to add a SID to an ST?


Maybe, but what the hell would you do with it? I know, It'd be great if you coded a SID player that uses it, but at that point I'd suggest using a SID player on a C64, since you know, the easiest and cheapest way to obtain a SID chip is by ripping it out of a C64 in the first place. There is a SID emulator for Atari ST though, and many trackers can do "SID" voices nowadays on the good old YM2149.

I guess my post doesn't really help answer your question, but sure that nobody has actually done this. Maybe they've thought about it though.

Once again, my advice would be to control it with MIDI. Get a Prophet64 cartridge and you'll be all set.

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Postby christos » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:53 pm

Of course the dsp has a really nice (for a tone deaf at least) SID emulation...
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Postby ppera » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:26 pm

SID from C64 and YM are very similar. And YM is better.
That's all what I know about sound chips :D

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Postby alexh » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:54 pm

The only REAL hardware hack I've heard of whereby you added a second chip was the one where you could add a second video shifter.

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Postby MiggyMog » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:48 pm

I remember there was a mod for 16 bit sound by replacing the DAC in the STE which worked with audio sculpture. Would it be possible to replace the chip with a multi channel DAC and have a mod to utilise the extra channels?


We have quite a few interesting hardware projects happening around at the scene at the minute http://hardware.atari.org/, quite exciting stuff. I wish all you smart guys worked on one big project though :-)
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Postby ppera » Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:50 am

MiggyMog wrote:I remember there was a mod for 16 bit sound by replacing the DAC in the STE which worked with audio sculpture. Would it be possible to replace the chip with a multi channel DAC and have a mod to utilise the extra channels?

We have quite a few interesting hardware projects happening around at the scene at the minute http://hardware.atari.org/, quite exciting stuff. I wish all you smart guys worked on one big project though :-)


I wish less dead links!

More bits, more channels means more BUS load in machine. Of course that it is possible, but question is has STE enough power for it? And how much it will cost? Then comes writing of SW, driver... Probably not worth...

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Postby Marcer » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:44 pm

make an Atari Special computer, who got, Pokey,ym2149,DMA, DSP and SID.

then make an Monster Tracker for it :P

could be something! :D

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Postby Stefan jL » Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:31 am

The ZX Spectrum has alot of "soundupgrades" like Turbosound... 2xYM2149 or even 2xYM2203.
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Re:

Postby troed » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:20 pm

MiggyMog wrote:I remember there was a mod for 16 bit sound by replacing the DAC in the STE which worked with audio sculpture. Would it be possible to replace the chip with a multi channel DAC and have a mod to utilise the extra channels?


Resurrecting dead threads, since this was brought up on IRC yesterday and I verified with Redhead how it was done.

You piggyback a 16 bit parallel DAC onto the existing L and R ones, one being 0-7 and one 8-15.

/Troed

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Re: Extra PSG sound chip?

Postby papa_november » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:09 pm

It might not be impossible to drop a YM2203 or even 2608 in there, but audio routing and the necessary DAC will be an issue. They'll be 100% software compatible but support for any of the extra FM/ADPCM features will have to be done from scratch. Also, not every ST series machine uses the same packaging for the YM2149 - the Falcon for example uses an SMD version.

It still begs the question of why nobody tried such a modification back during the ST's active life. The YM2203 and 2608 were the intended successors to the YM2149 and are almost drop-in upgrades for existing designs.

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Re: Extra PSG sound chip?

Postby Nimrod » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:36 pm

I had (have?) such a upgrade. It was a piggyback thing with a extra chip that gave a out 3 individual channels of sound. One for each channel... so not mono, not stereo... trio sound? So you got 3 RCA out connectors and you had to choose which two channels to combine to be either left or right. Not a perfect solution.

All programmed sound was great but for some reason samples sounded garbled. It was a feature even described in the docs.
This was a rather cheap kit.

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Re: Extra PSG sound chip?

Postby Greenious » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:30 pm

papa_november wrote:It still begs the question of why nobody tried such a modification back during the ST's active life. The YM2203 and 2608 were the intended successors to the YM2149 and are almost drop-in upgrades for existing designs.


Back then chip music wasn't 'hot'... everyone wanted mod trackers, and all addons you see from that time is basically various DACs...

I've looked a bit at this, and by far the most easy thing to do is probably making a drop in replacement for the PSG with a YM2203, many ST/STEs already got it socketed and the only real challenge would be drilling a hole in the case for another sound output.

And it shouldn't be very expensive either, maybe $10 for the parts alone for a DIY kit.

But the main obstacle is of course interest. We need atleast one programmer interested in making a tool that works with it.

But what the hell, I'll start looking at the design for a ym2203 drop in replacement, and what parts are needed, and make a few to gauge interest.
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Re: Extra PSG sound chip?

Postby EvilFranky » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:04 pm

Is it likely that a YM2203 would work as a YM2149 in an ST without any issues? If you just swapped them round without doing anything else?

They are both 40 pin, but I get the feeling it won't be that simple...

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Re: Extra PSG sound chip?

Postby Greenious » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:29 pm

EvilFranky wrote:Is it likely that a YM2203 would work as a YM2149 in an ST without any issues? If you just swapped them round without doing anything else?

They are both 40 pin, but I get the feeling it won't be that simple...


No, different pinout, and the YM2203 also needs a DAC. So it will need some form of PCB/breadboard.

Other than that, all important parts seem to be there, registers are all the same + additional ones for the FM part.

In theory it should work as a replacement. In practice... will we really know before we actually try?
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Re: Extra PSG sound chip?

Postby Atarieterno » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:55 am

I respect the chiptune music, but I think it would be a very interesting device an internal micro-General MIDI for the ST series, that would transform the Atari with Cubase (Logic, Notator, Sonus, Perfect Score, Encore, etc) in the world's most compact sequencer.
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Re: Extra PSG sound chip?

Postby Greenious » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:46 pm

Atarieterno wrote:I respect the chiptune music, but I think it would be a very interesting device an internal micro-General MIDI for the ST series, that would transform the Atari with Cubase (Logic, Notator, Sonus, Perfect Score, Encore, etc) in the world's most compact sequencer.


Honestly, an external midibox would be the way to go. No rewrite of software needed and a much larger potential customerbase.
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Re: Extra PSG sound chip?

Postby Atarieterno » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:27 pm

Greenious wrote:
Atarieterno wrote:I respect the chiptune music, but I think it would be a very interesting device an internal micro-General MIDI for the ST series, that would transform the Atari with Cubase (Logic, Notator, Sonus, Perfect Score, Encore, etc) in the world's most compact sequencer.


Honestly, an external midibox would be the way to go. No rewrite of software needed and a much larger potential customerbase.



Dear Mate, I have been using an external sound source for 30 years, and I continue with Atari as a musical tool.
My proposal is for the list of rare things we could do with our Ataris, it is not far from a double Yamaha chip.
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Re: Extra PSG sound chip?

Postby Greenious » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:38 pm

I can put whatever you want into your atari, soundchips, toaster, microwave oven... but I cannot write the software aswell.

The YM2203 is "easy" because it should be able to work as a plug in replacement, on many ataris PSG is socketed, no soldering needed, and it would work as a PSG but have extra registers for those wanting to use it. and a separate sound output for that purpose.

Find me a programmer or a group of programmers willing to actually write the software for what you want and we can talk about it. Noone stepped up 10 years ago when we last discussed this topic, noone has stepped up here so far. That is the sad reality.
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