HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

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HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby calimero » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:47 pm

Hi,

so far I was using Petari harddisk driver: https://atari.8bitchip.info/pphdr.php

It is superb!

On Atari Falcon 030:
- You can format ENTIRE CF-Card as TOS/DOS/Windows compatible.
- Partition can be up to 512MB.
- You can have 14 of them.
- All of them can be bootable and read/write by Atari
- All of them can be accessed for read/write by Mac OS or Windows PC


Only PROBLEM with Petari harddisk driver is that it WONT work with CT63 (68060)! :(


Since I would like to use my CT63 I give a try to HDdriver demo v.10

What makes HDDriver extremely difficult to test, are limitations of demo version. Particular:
- "Partitioning only supports a single partition of up to 512 KiB"

Reading comments on Atari-forum, I get impression that everybody use TWO physical CF cards:
- one for Atari kind of partition
- second formatted as DOS/Windows compatible for file transfer

I want to avoid this scenario! With Petari harddisk driver I use only one card with 14 partitions, all bootable by Atari and all read/write with Mac (PC).

I can not test most problematic thing about HDDriver! My question is: can all partitions be TOS and DOS compatible at same time, and can Atari be booted from C: partition in this case?


Reading comments on AF, I would say that this is not possible with HDDriver (but it is possible with Petari Driver without problems!).
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby czietz » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:22 pm

HDDRIVER can boot from a TOS&Windows-compatible partition. But: HDDRIVER cannot boot from a byte-swapped medium. Unfortunately, for IDE devices (such as a CF card) to be readable from a PC, it has to be byte-swapped.
See the FAQ, entry: "Can TOS boot HDDRIVER from a TOS/Windows compatible medium?"

Currently, the only solution to be able to boot HDDRIVER from a byte-swapped medium would be an IDE interface with the "Smartswap" feature. Unfortunately, this is not available for the Falcon at the moment. (I have a working prototype of a "Smartswap" addon board to plug between any Atari computer and harddisk/CF card, but I haven't had time to develop it into a series product.)

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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby 1st1 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:58 pm

calimero wrote:Hi,

so far I was using Petari harddisk driver: https://atari.8bitchip.info/pphdr.php

It is superb!
After all what I have read, I don't think so. HDDRIVER is superb. :P
On Atari Falcon 030:
- You can format ENTIRE CF-Card as TOS/DOS/Windows compatible.
I have two CFs, both accessible/swapable from outside (beneath of slimline floppy). 1st is Atari-format, 2nd is one partition 2GB Windows formatted. It is readable with HDDRIVER+BigDOS.
- Partition can be up to 512MB.
TOS 4.0x can handle partitions of up to 1 GB by itself. With BIGDOS I can manage 2 GB CF card with one 2GB partition formatted by Windows FAT16 for data exchange (no boot). If ppera driver limits to 512MB, then you habe only access to 16x512=8GB. My Falcon has on 1st CF 16x 1GB partitions full of software (apps, games, demos, ...) and data (Docs, MP3, MOD, some small movies, ...) , plus 16 GB ext2 partition for MiNT. 2nd CF, 2 GB in one parttion handled by BigDOS is for data exchange.
- You can have 14 of them.
That is standard since TOS 1.00 on a 260ST. Nothing special. With HDDRIVER+BIGDOS I can have partions from C: to Z: plus 0: to 9:, that is 34 partitions in total.
- All of them can be bootable and read/write by Atari
I just press the drive letter (A to P) on HDDRIVER boot message, and it boots from there. But using XBOOT to handle different sets of ACC, Auto-Progs, CPX, Newdesk.INF files, ASSIGN.SYS, etc. is much nicer.
- All of them can be accessed for read/write by Mac OS or Windows PC
ATARI can handle filenames which are illegal on MS-DOS and Windows like "CON", "COM" "LPT1" and so on, ATARI filenames can also contain "+" character and a few others, so if you insert media used by Atari with such file/foldernames into PC, PC will get mad. I copy all files I like to transfer to the 2 GB CF with my Windows 10, plug the 2 GB CF in my Falcon, and use the files onto it. If I like to keep them on the Falcon, I just use Kobold copy program to copy/move them to the 1st CF, on one of the available 1GB partitions, or with MiNT to the large ext2 partition.


Only PROBLEM with Petari harddisk driver is that it WONT work with CT63 (68060)! :(
HDDRIVER just works fine with my CT60e. HDDRIVER has full XHDI support what means, it also supports the installation of MiNT. With PPera's driver no XHDI, no MiNT. I think, with ppera driver also no NetBSD, no Debian 68K.

Since I would like to use my CT63 I give a try to HDdriver demo v.10

What makes HDDriver extremely difficult to test, are limitations of demo version. Particular:
- "Partitioning only supports a single partition of up to 512 KiB"
With full version the limit is the supported size by TOS (1.00 = 32 MB, up to 3.06=512 MB, 4.04=1GB, with BIgDOS, 3.06 = 1GB 4.0x=2GB Windows formatted).
Reading comments on Atari-forum, I get impression that everybody use TWO physical CF cards:
- one for Atari kind of partition
- second formatted as DOS/Windows compatible for file transfer
Yes, see above. This is "Best practize".
I want to avoid this scenario! With Petari harddisk driver I use only one card with 14 partitions, all bootable by Atari and all read/write with Mac (PC).
Your statement is not an advantage.
I can not test most problematic thing about HDDriver! My question is: can all partitions be TOS and DOS compatible at same time, and can Atari be booted from C: partition in this case?
No, Partition schema of AHDI/XHDI-drivers is different from ppera-Tos-Windows-schema. Windows will not understand it. And there is no need, I use 2nd media for data exchange. I don't wnat that the "intelligence" of my Windows machine bungles ATARI system drives. I don't want to have recov~1 folders with file recovery informations, shadow files and stuff like that on my Atari, there this ios a waste of space.

Reading comments on AF, I would say that this is not possible with HDDriver (but it is possible with Petari Driver without problems!).

No need for me for your prefered possibilities.

HDDRIVER is worth the money. You also can try CHBD+BigDOS, that should also be able to do many of the HDDRIVER functions, but not all, at least it has XHDI support for MiNT as well. CHBD+BigDOS are for free.
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby calimero » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:49 pm

Thanks for detailed answer.

To make it short: it is NOT possible to have one CF card to be compatible with Atari and PC at same time (and with multiple partitions) with HDDRiver?

Yes, see above. This is "Best practize".


I would not say it is a best practice but rather: ONLY possible solution - to have two CF cards :(
Ok, at least I should not trying to do something that it is not possible.


btw
I can understand that you are somehow pissed on Petari but his driver is really superb! It works flawlessly on my F030.
It certainly have some advantages over HDDriver (in respect of compatibility with PC) and some disadvantages (no 060 compatibility, no MiNT compatibility, and limit to 512MB on F030 per patitions).
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby calimero » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:03 pm

czietz wrote:HDDRIVER can boot from a TOS&Windows-compatible partition. But: HDDRIVER cannot boot from a byte-swapped medium. Unfortunately, for IDE devices (such as a CF card) to be readable from a PC, it has to be byte-swapped.
See the FAQ, entry: "Can TOS boot HDDRIVER from a TOS/Windows compatible medium?"

Currently, the only solution to be able to boot HDDRIVER from a byte-swapped medium would be an IDE interface with the "Smartswap" feature. Unfortunately, this is not available for the Falcon at the moment. (I have a working prototype of a "Smartswap" addon board to plug between any Atari computer and harddisk/CF card, but I haven't had time to develop it into a series product.)


I almost miss your post czietz! :) Thanks.

I now understand this issues more in depth, but that also open new questions: :)

You mention that byte-swapped could be solved by using IDE interface with "Smartswap" feature on Falcon side.
but can it be solved by using such interface on PC side? (to have byte-order by Motorola standard on CF card, readable by Atari)


...and how then Petari solved this problem in his driver (purely in software)?!?
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby czietz » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:14 pm

I didn't say booting from a byte-swapped IDE HD was not possible. ppera's driver is the obvious proof that it is possible. I just said that HDDRIVER is not capable of doing that. So you have two options: a) Convince Uwe Seimet (author of HDDRIVER) to develop a way to boot from a byte-swapped medium. b) Convince Peter Putnik to make his driver work on a 68060.

Any SW byte-swap solution, however, has a drawback compared to Smartswap HW: The transfer rate is drastically lower because the CPU has to do extra byte-swapping work. Theoretically, you could also do the swapping on the PC side (be it by software or hardware) but I don't know any solution that would do that.

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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby joska » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:38 pm

czietz wrote:Theoretically, you could also do the swapping on the PC side (be it by software or hardware) but I don't know any solution that would do that.


ARAnyM and Hatari does that just fine :) I don't bother with Windows-compatibility, I partition the SD-card (used with IDE->SD adapter, a lot less hassle than finding expensive CF-cards that works reliably with the Falcon) on the Atari, and if I need to access it on my PC I use ARAnyM or Hatari for that.
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby mikro » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:17 am

joska wrote:ARAnyM and Hatari does that just fine :) I don't bother with Windows-compatibility, I partition the SD-card (used with IDE->SD adapter, a lot less hassle than finding expensive CF-cards that works reliably with the Falcon) on the Atari, and if I need to access it on my PC I use ARAnyM or Hatari for that.

I second that, both the SD card choice and using Aranym/Hatari for copying. It's a little less user friendly but 100% dumb proof. :)

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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby joska » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:21 am

mikro wrote:It's a little less user friendly but 100% dumb proof. :)


Actually, I think it's more user friendly because you don't have to make any compromises when it comes to drivers and partitioning. But then I don't have to transfer files this way that often, I have both a network card and PARCP-USB constantly connected to my Falcon, so I can easily transfer files when working on the Falcon anyway. Moving the primary storage between the Falcon and PC would mean that I would have to shut down and reboot the Falcon every time, not very practical for my use.
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby 1st1 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:45 pm

czietz wrote:I didn't say booting from a byte-swapped IDE HD was not possible. ppera's driver is the obvious proof that it is possible. I just said that HDDRIVER is not capable of doing that. So you have two options: a) Convince Uwe Seimet (author of HDDRIVER) to develop a way to boot from a byte-swapped medium. b) Convince Peter Putnik to make his driver work on a 68060.


Making HDDRIVER booting from byteswapped media would destry compatibility. Because HDDRIVER and most other ATARI harddisk drivers are storing the driver file inside the partiton (HDDRVER.SYS in c:\, etc.). I have tested PPeras driver as well, and my impression is that it is stored outside the partition, in sectors in fromt of the partition. I think that's the trick. Otherwise files inside the filesystem get corrupt for the one or other system (little/big endian). This would break the compatibiliy of HDDRIVER with other drivers and using the same media on IDE or ACSI/SCSI.
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby calimero » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:07 pm

Lot of interesting information here! :)

So joska, you mention IDE to SD-card adapter. I just search it in aliexpress and there is like dozen different models. Can somebody recommend adapter that 100% works with Falcon? (preferably one that have SD slot accessible on edge of adapter)

btw
that Hatari "trick", sound like very wise solution!
Last edited by calimero on Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby 1st1 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:24 pm

All ide to CF adapters are only mechanical converters, there is no electronics on it. That means, any of these adapters should work just fine.
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby calimero » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:41 pm

Joska talk about IDE to SD-card (I misspell "SD", now I edit my previous post).

and Joska, you also mention that it is hard to find CF-card that "works reliably with the Falcon". My Transcedent 8GB card works just fine... How this "reliability" affect data on CF-card?
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby Cyprian » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:08 pm

czietz wrote:Any SW byte-swap solution, however, has a drawback compared to Smartswap HW: The transfer rate is drastically lower because the CPU has to do extra byte-swapping work. Theoretically, you could also do the swapping on the PC side (be it by software or hardware) but I don't know any solution that would do that.


actually due to barrel shifter, byteswap (ROL.W #8,D0) on 68030 and newer is almost for free .
In additional ST-RAM is much slower than the CPU, therefore byteswap should have minimal impact onto the data trasfer.
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby wongck » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:48 pm

calimero wrote:Joska talk about IDE to SD-card (I misspell "SD", now I edit my previous post).

and Joska, you also mention that it is hard to find CF-card that "works reliably with the Falcon". My Transcedent 8GB card works just fine... How this "reliability" affect data on CF-card?


The topic of 'reliable" CF has been beaten to dead here.
From my own research, I found that there are basically 2 types of CF - commercial and industrial.
Mostly from the retail shop you get commercial type. You need find a bit harder for industrial type.
The difference is that industrial type has a better compliant to IDE standard and also better write-leveling algorithm ( you can google about it).
You can get these used industrial type cheaper from ebay than new commercial CF.
I got 2 (unknown brand) industrial CF from different China seller and both works immediately without any issues.
(of course I did not go crazy and get 32GB but the 4GB versions as 4GB is plenty already)
I have read others using Sandisk, kingston etc CF and they had issues.

So there you have it.
This is just my own anecdotal experience, but I hope some people can profit from it.
However, I use CF-SD adapter more now, as micro-SD is more useful for camera/phones.

On the SD-adpater.... there also plenty thread as well.
Whatever it is try not get this viewtopic.php?f=27&t=18840#p162322
( but I did read may be someone got it working).
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby czietz » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:38 am

Cyprian wrote:actually due to barrel shifter, byteswap (ROL.W #8,D0) on 68030 and newer is almost for free .


Just measured on my TT with HDDRIVER and XFERRATE:

With SW byte-swap: 1850 kByte/s.
With HW byte-swap done by Thunder interface: 4680 kByte/s!

Let's conclude that we designed Smartswap for a reason!

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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby mikro » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:25 am

czietz wrote:
Cyprian wrote:actually due to barrel shifter, byteswap (ROL.W #8,D0) on 68030 and newer is almost for free .


Just measured on my TT with HDDRIVER and XFERRATE:

With SW byte-swap: 1850 kByte/s.
With HW byte-swap done by Thunder interface: 4680 kByte/s!

Let's conclude that we designed Smartswap for a reason!

Yeah, wanted to write the same :-) It's a huge, huge difference whether you do move.w (a0),(a1)+ vs. move.w (a0),d0; rol.w #8,d0; move.w d0,(a1)+. There are tricks to speed this up a bit (IIRC it was discussed even here on AF) but nothing beats pure move and/or hardware swapper.

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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby joska » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:58 am

calimero wrote:So joska, you mention IDE to SD-card adapter. I just search it in aliexpress and there is like dozen different models. Can somebody recommend adapter that 100% works with Falcon? (preferably one that have SD slot accessible on edge of adapter)


My preferred adapter is this one.

I'm using this in my Falcons and all my other IDE-equipped Ataris (STM with homemade IDE-adapter, Mega with Monster, STE with Monster, Firebee) except one, and it works very well. Works 100% reliably with all cards I've tested. However, the SD-slot is not available from the edge in this adapter, which does not matter to me because I don't want to modify the cases anyway. Also, this adapter only works when there's a single device on the IDE bus. It has no master/slave jumper, and the cable select line seems to be ignored.

The exception mentioned above is my Milan, in which I use this adapter. I use this because it has a regular 40-pin connector so no adapter is required. This one also has the SD slot available from the edge of the adapter. It also works with two devices on the bus, using Cable Select. I have it set up as slave with an IDE harddrive as master on the same bus.

calimero wrote:and Joska, you also mention that it is hard to find CF-card that "works reliably with the Falcon". My Transcedent 8GB card works just fine... How this "reliability" affect data on CF-card?


I've had mixed experiences with CF-cards on my Milan and Falcons. Some cards works perfectly. Others works perfectly but only when it's the only device on the bus. Others gives you nothing but trouble from the start, returning garbage device names, write errors when partitioning etc, and some seems to work fine but you quickly run into data corruption. Some cards works fine with HD-Driver but not at all with AHDI etc. I see no reason to use CF these days. They're not available in my local stores, except for some really, really expensive ones in a camera store. They don't offer any advantages over SD either. SD cards are cheap, fast and reliable, and I can even buy good quality cards in my local grocery stores.
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby Cyprian » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:19 am

czietz wrote:
Cyprian wrote:actually due to barrel shifter, byteswap (ROL.W #8,D0) on 68030 and newer is almost for free .


Just measured on my TT with HDDRIVER and XFERRATE:

With SW byte-swap: 1850 kByte/s.
With HW byte-swap done by Thunder interface: 4680 kByte/s!

Let's conclude that we designed Smartswap for a reason!

understandable under this condition

anyway there is something wrong with byteswap in Hddriver
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby calimero » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:27 am

wongck wrote:On the SD-adpater.... there also plenty thread as well.
Whatever it is try not get this viewtopic.php?f=27&t=18840#p162322
( but I did read may be someone got it working).


I just read that thread but all links for ordering IDE to SD card adapter are dead :(

I also read that "HDDRIVER 8 just plain does not work with CAF hard drive recording" - is this fixed in version 10?


EDIT:
thanks Joska for answer!
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby wongck » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:05 pm

calimero wrote:
wongck wrote:On the SD-adpater.... there also plenty thread as well.
Whatever it is try not get this viewtopic.php?f=27&t=18840#p162322
( but I did read may be someone got it working).


I just read that thread but all links for ordering IDE to SD card adapter are dead :(

Guess things does change in 5-6 years except Ata
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby ThorstenOtto » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:31 pm

Cyprian wrote:anyway there is something wrong with byteswap in Hddriver


There is nothing wrong with HDDRIVER. pperas driver can only support that, because it is built into the ROM, where it can already swap the root & bootsector where the bootcode is loaded from. HDDRIVER relies on TOS to load at least the rootsector. If that is read in the wrong order, it cannot be executed.

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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby czietz » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:54 pm

Cyprian wrote:anyway there is something wrong with byteswap in Hddriver


Sigh. It's getting off-topic in this thread, but here is EmuTOS with built-in IDE driver:
SW byte-swap: 2480 kByte/s
HW byte-swap (Thunder Smartswap): 4680 kByte/s.

Even on a 68030 you don't get SW byte-swap for free.

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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby 1st1 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:24 pm

mikro wrote:
czietz wrote:
Cyprian wrote:actually due to barrel shifter, byteswap (ROL.W #8,D0) on 68030 and newer is almost for free .


Just measured on my TT with HDDRIVER and XFERRATE:

With SW byte-swap: 1850 kByte/s.
With HW byte-swap done by Thunder interface: 4680 kByte/s!

Let's conclude that we designed Smartswap for a reason!

Yeah, wanted to write the same :-) It's a huge, huge difference whether you do move.w (a0),(a1)+ vs. move.w (a0),d0; rol.w #8,d0; move.w d0,(a1)+. There are tricks to speed this up a bit (IIRC it was discussed even here on AF) but nothing beats pure move and/or hardware swapper.


That's not the point. The Thunder IDE controller for TT has smart byteswap in hardware. No need to let the CPU do that.
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Re: HDDRIVER and DOS/Windows partitions

Postby 1st1 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:35 pm

wongck wrote:
calimero wrote:The topic of 'reliable" CF has been beaten to dead here.
From my own research, I found that there are basically 2 types of CF - commercial and industrial.
Mostly from the retail shop you get commercial type. You need find a bit harder for industrial type.


I have different experience. I now have a large collection of CF cards, from 64 MB up to 32 GB, brand named (Kingston, Trancent, Hama, ...), noname chinese ones, and relabled industrial ones (stolen from scrapped CISCO network devices, etc.).

There is only one chinese noname which does not work. But it's fine at PC card reader, so it's not broken.

What is confusing, is that there are some CF cards, even branded ones (there is one Kingston like that in use by me) which does not show a device name on IDE scan. It's just empty name. But anyhow, it is selectable in HDRUTIL (click on empty text), I can set it up, and it boots just fine. This can confuse, you think, as it does not display a name, that it is not there, but it is.
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