WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

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WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby z!Erec » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:24 pm

Hi I´m a Falcon owner for two weeks now.
It´s quite difficult for me with those different OSes like
TOS 4.04,MultiTOS. MagiC,Mint.
I would like to give Geneva and this N-AES 2.x a try.
Where can I get a copy? Or who can help?

regards
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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby Dal » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:42 pm

Not sure if they still supply...

Geneva:
http://www4.pair.com/gribnif/pricing.htm
- I have sent an email to check availability of Geneva. The email didn't bounce which is encouraging. If I get a response, I will let you know.

N.AES:
http://www.woller.com/naes/n_aes1.html

English resources for N.AES
http://atari.nvg.org/
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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby Dal » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:02 pm

No joy with supplying Geneva I'm afraid. I did get a response from the site owner though which was surprising! I have asked him if he could supply me with some contact information for the developers so I can explore any opportunities that may exist to have the applications they were distributing (Arabesque, Geneva, NeoDesk, XBoot etc) made public domain/open source.
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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby Beej » Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:12 pm

Dal_1978 wrote:No joy with supplying Geneva I'm afraid. I did get a response from the site owner though which was surprising! I have asked him if he could supply me with some contact information for the developers so I can explore any opportunities that may exist to have the applications they were distributing (Arabesque, Geneva, NeoDesk, XBoot etc) made public domain/open source.


What do you want to use your Falcon for the most?
I've sent you some personal opinions about various Falcon options in PM.

Some other things you can try if Gribnif doesn't supply directly any more.

Any of these places might still have the Gribnif titles in stock:
http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/
http://www.wizztronics.com
http://www.myatari.com/
http://www.aracnet.com/~atari/

N.AES may be a bit harder, AFAIK there was only one distributer of this.

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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby Dal » Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:56 pm

Thanks for the PM. Sound advice there and I wonder if it might be worth posting up on the wiki to help Falcon owners make an informed choice with regard to setup.
- but then no two people share the same opinion on this board at the best of times! :lol:

I had another email back from Dan at Gribnif saying that he may be up for running off more copies of Geneva if there was enough interest (10 or more).

If anyone's interested, please post on this thread.
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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby Beej » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:14 pm

Dal_1978 wrote:Thanks for the PM. Sound advice there and I wonder if it might be worth posting up on the wiki to help Falcon owners make an informed choice with regard to setup.
- but then no two people share the same opinion on this board at the best of times! :lol:

I had another email back from Dan at Gribnif saying that he may be up for running off more copies of Geneva if there was enough interest (10 or more).

If anyone's interested, please post on this thread.


You're welcome. I did send a copy of my comments to z!Erec, who started the thread as well. Most of the other stuff I've droned on about in other threads on here...so all are welcome to follow the various threads with keywords 'geneva' 'magic' and 'mint'.

I think it would be cool if Dan did a 'Gribnif Power User' CD edition. Just put all of his work on one disk and sell it for say $200. His work was the best of the best...too bad he dropped out of the race around the time that more 'colorful' hardware arrived on the scene (Falcon, VGA cards, and TOS Clones)...and to make matters worse the coding community ignored alot of the standards he was working towards and started 3 more branches of coding practices :(

Oh well....seriously...Geneva is the Atari world masterpiece of all time. If I didn't have a finiky CT2b, and STing or STik worked with MiNT kernels, I'd just go Geneva on Mint 1.12 all the way.

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Last edited by Beej on Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby mdivancic » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:29 am

Dal_1978 wrote:Thanks for the PM. Sound advice there and I wonder if it might be worth posting up on the wiki to help Falcon owners make an informed choice with regard to setup.
- but then no two people share the same opinion on this board at the best of times! :lol:

I had another email back from Dan at Gribnif saying that he may be up for running off more copies of Geneva if there was enough interest (10 or more).

If anyone's interested, please post on this thread.

I'll take a copy.
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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby wongck » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:22 am

Geneva & Neodesk would be great for ST system with 1MB.
With 4MB it would be excellent.
I was using it back in the late 80s early 90s on my STFM.
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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby Beej » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:56 pm

wongck wrote:Geneva & Neodesk would be great for ST system with 1MB.
With 4MB it would be excellent.
I was using it back in the late 80s early 90s on my STFM.


So true.

If music making software is high on your priority list, Geneva remains a top contender for the Falcon as well. MiNT is optional with Geneva.

NeoDesk is really nice, but these days would be my 3rd choice if I were going to BUY a desktop. Reason is long file name support doesn't exist in NeoDesk...the av-serve protocol did evolve a bunch beyond the NeoDesk era, and there are some that do a better job with memory usage as well. Jinnee and Thing come to mind.

Also, Geneva is pretty amazing with no desk top at all. Really nice if you have a fairly regular working pattern...it can be set to your daily routine...like a super macro package. Add Geneva Macros utility, and it really gets fun :)

If you want to run older stuff written before the days of MiNT and Magic without a hitch...Geneva is worth it. Even the stuff that needs a full screen text console (Like Intersect Comms package, MWC shell, Band in a Box, etc.) does nicely, as Geneva can be set to keep a fresh back screen for each application it loads. MagiC and MiNT both make a mess of things if you try to run something like that (provided it doesn't just crash from the get go)! Even stuff that grabs hardware directly...like CuBase Audio, and even some of the hard hack games work if you set the right flags.

On Geneva + MiNT:
If all you need from preemptive multitasking is the occasional multi-threaded application (Atari Works calling a spell check or thesaurus as an example), this combo feels super-charged in comparison to MultiTOS, N.AES, or XXAES. Just load MiNT 1.12 or earlier for a setup with a very small memory requirement that multi threads preemptively and very quickly.

Actually, the only major weakness to using Geneva as the primary AES for any MiNT setup is the VT emulation window. The one in Geneva is mono vt52. On a STOCK Falcon that's not all bad though, as it will be responsive and more considerate of computing resources...moving up to N.AES or XXAES with lots of colors gets really slow...feels like typing in molasses syrup!

Options for better VT emulation in Geneva are:
1. VCONSOLES Not sure about color here...but does indeed have possibly the fastest multi-screen VT emulation available for the platform.

2. Use Coshy from the CoNNect package (great color vt52/100/102/ANSI/TEK100 emulation in a window using GDOS fonts of you choice, but can get unbearably sluggish on a stock Falcon)

3. Possibly cornholio? Never got around to trying that one.

4. Possibly fixing some code in TOSWIN so it will recognize Geneva as a multi-tasking AES.

So even for Falcons...Geneva is worth it I think.

N.AES is really pretty and has more attention in the TOSWIN area.
Geneva is just super flexible (can work without MiNT), ultra small, and built for speed.

Beej
Last edited by Beej on Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby Shredder11 » Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:29 am

I'll have a copy too.

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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby DarkLord » Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:06 am

I've got the last version of Neodesk/Geneva at home, and I'll recommend it highly as
well.

One thing that's always impressed me about Dan's stuff, the documentation! Huge
binder/tome that covers the combo...
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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby wongck » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:39 am

Beej wrote:NeoDesk is really nice, but these days would be my 3rd choice if I were going to BUY a desktop. Reason is long file name support doesn't exist in NeoDesk...and there are some that do a better job with memory usage as well. Jinnee and Thing come to mind.


yeap, that's one problem with it that turns others to other desktop.
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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby piotrr » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:11 pm

I agree with Beej that Geneva doesn't need a desktop. Just use Freedom for your launching/moving/renaming and whatnot.
/ Per

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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby Beej » Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:46 pm

DarkLord wrote:I've got the last version of Neodesk/Geneva at home, and I'll recommend it highly as
well.

One thing that's always impressed me about Dan's stuff, the documentation! Huge
binder/tome that covers the combo...


The online help is superb as well. Nicely integrated hyper linked help system. Forgot what that button does? Click help and there it is :)

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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby wongck » Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:45 am

piotrr wrote:I agree with Beej that Geneva doesn't need a desktop. Just use Freedom for your launching/moving/renaming and whatnot.


Man... using a fileselector like a desktop :mrgreen:
That quite difficult to visualize things no?
I mean it's like back to command line.
Then again if you use it for MIDI, I suppose the keyboard will be more use to you.
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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby Beej » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:59 pm

wongck wrote:
piotrr wrote:I agree with Beej that Geneva doesn't need a desktop. Just use Freedom for your launching/moving/renaming and whatnot.


Man... using a fileselector like a desktop :mrgreen:
That quite difficult to visualize things no?
I mean it's like back to command line.
Then again if you use it for MIDI, I suppose the keyboard will be more use to you.


Well...it's just a different way of doing things. The task manager for Geneva is really nice, and the built in file manager isn't half bad either. With music suites that make maximum use of the back most screen...The desktop tends to get in the way anyhow.

With Geneva Macros installed, you just hit record, do your most repetitive tasks, stop record, and it's there to call back anytime you like. Think of it like writing really complex scripts....but you don't have to know the first thing about script writing. Better yet, you don't have to back into some kind of shell and thread the mess through a dozen parsers and tiny utilities...you can make/use macros inside ANY program(s)...even using the mouse (tho' better/faster if you can use key combos). With String Server and thoughtful use of the GEM Clipboard, you can make applications swap information and work like a seamless unit with a tiny bit of thought :)

For apps that didn't build in their own key-combos....if it's part of a standard GEM menu or dialogue...Geneva does a pretty good job of assigning some as well. It's amazingly powerful.

Also out of the box in the amazingly tiny Geneva memory/resource footprint, you can tear off menus from any application and keep them around. So it sorta merges all apps into one :)

I do something kind of like this:
Geneva Config sets up CueBase Audio Falcon and launches it first...M-ROS is a kind of preemptive multi-tasking kernel...a sort of mini-mint designed around the serial ports (preempts all instructions and gives top priority to midi routing/timing/playback/recording)...so I do this first and leave this active in Memory 99% of the time.

Next Geneva auto loads X-OR with just enough memory for my favorite synth set-up, and puts it to sleep in the background.

Finally it loads up a few desktop accessories that I find myself using frequently.

It then pulls CAF to the foreground with my favorite song template and waits for me to start working.

All of this just from switching the Falcon on No other clicking or dragging.

Also keep in mind that many of the hallmark Music Packages had started development long before any Multi Task switcher like Geneva even existed...so they usually have pretty powerful 'desk-top' operations built into them (format a disk, copy-move files, text file notepads, etc). Even as some of them migrated for use with more modern Multi-Tasking set-up...they left in all those old desk-top like features.

Other minor desk-top stuff that have become outdated or just aren't there can often be replaced with your favorite desk-top Accessory. Kobold is a great example of a 'power ACC' to have handy...can be locked in memory as an ACC, or only called when you need it as a PRG/APP. Even as an ACC...it still uses less memory with Geneva than having a desk-top around.

Apps I often need, but don't want in memory all the time (Ex: Zero-X, Sample C, a virtual synth, a second independent sequencer, various MIDI filters and debuggers), I have simple macros built to pull them up and automatically get them to my favorite set-up and screen ready to work. The macros can be called up with key-combos, or chosen from a simple menu system that's integrated under the ACC menu. Saves me dozens of clicks and drags from a 'desk-top'.

So no, it's not much like a command line, but more like integrating all of your applications into one big super application.

You just skip the desk-top and dive right into the Applications themselves.

Also, even if you don't lock in a desk-top as a 'shell', you can later load one up, use it, and kill it if you like.

So what if I have some applications that support AV-SERVER drag and drop functions? Yep...somewhere out there is also a simple AV-SERVER stand alone without a desktop. I never needed it, but I do recall that it exists.

And....for the non-musicians out there...Most of the Olga aware stuff works fine with Geneva...as well as String Server...with or without MiNT in the basement. A well done Olga setup, String Server, and a few simple macros at hand really can make a desktop little more than eye candy and a waste of good memory.

So seriously...no other software for the Atari platform pushed the capabilities of GEM like Geneva did. If this thing had locked into the standard AES for MiNT, instead of all the unix wanna be AES projects that popped up later...it would be sooooooooooo awesome today.

Dan Wilga UNDERSTOOD the true power of GEM. It was BETTER equipped than people realized...if you just thought about it deeper...and didn't keep trying to reinvent the wheel to make things look and act like Unix, Mac, or Windows. With a few nibbles and half a clock cycle in GEM, you could do what takes megabytes to do with other concepts.

People just forgot about best concepts that GEM had to offer, and tried to turn it into something far less powerful...something that sorta looked and felt like a Mac :( I can still see in my mind all of the grumbles of GEM's short comings. How it can't 'multi-thread', and on and on...but GEM could do more...better...faster...it was just a little different :)

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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby Dal » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:10 pm

BUMP!

Excuse the bump but it would be nice to see if there are any more takers for Geneva?
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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby DarkLord » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:08 am

Dal_1978 wrote:BUMP!

Excuse the bump but it would be nice to see if there are any more takers for Geneva?


I've got the latest versions of each, but I'd really love to see Dan get involved again (as unlikely
as that is) and see an *updated* 2010 version of each.

That my friends, would be righteously cool. :)
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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby Dal » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:37 am

Yes indeed but unlikely - I'm discussing options with him as he really doesn't want to supply anymore (let alone develop).

Will update as soon as I have anything solid I can talk about... :wink:
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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby nativ » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:49 am

Dal_1978 wrote:Yes indeed but unlikely - I'm discussing options with him as he really doesn't want to supply anymore (let alone develop).

Will update as soon as I have anything solid I can talk about... :wink:



Doesn't want too supply??!?!?

I had a friend who did a degree in business studies, he had a similar attitude to life!
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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby Ato » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:57 pm

nativ wrote:Doesn't want too supply??!?!?


I suppose you are not positively surprised. But think about it for a minute. If the author continues to sell the software, he/she has to support it in most countries of the world (depending on the local applicable law). Hence he/she has to have an Atari at hand for debugging etc. So from that point of view I would understand the author. On the hand, then there is nothing wrong with releasing the software to the public domain and perhaps even release the source code. Or, a third option, transfer ownership to somebody or a group.

Don't get me wrong, but I think I can see his point. :wink:

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Re: WANTED: latest Geneva & N-AES 2.x

Postby wongck » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:27 pm

True True.
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