Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby ericgus » Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:55 am

Someone had asked about running GemBench on the MiST .. Here are my results .. While I am not an ST expert if someone has a specific configuration they would like to see please let me know.


My default "ST" configuration on the MiST 68000/4mb
IMG_0626-ST.jpg


megaST MiST settings
IMG_0628-megaSTE.jpg


STEroids MiST setting
IMG_0627-STEroids.jpg
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby exxos » Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:33 am

Pretty cool, thanks for posting the result :)
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:43 am

Eero Tamminen wrote:
AtariZoll wrote:EmuTOS for Amiga, on Amiga.

Clean Atari GEM programs work on Amiga EmuTOS. If somebody writes fVDI drivers for Amiga color modes, also in something else than monochrome. What higher graphics modes Vampire supports besides Amiga's standard planar modes?
I.e. for clean Atari GEM programs only CPU compatibility will be an issue. If programs need MiNT, then somebody would need add basic Amiga HW support for MiNT too...


My point was that so far Vampire worked not on some ST. Or at least I don't know about. All I seen is YT video where they put Vampire board into ST, via raiser (actually multiple sockets) - that was demonstration that it fits physically. What a shock ! Fits in Amiga 500, so fits in ST. Still, nothing from seeing it running. Actually, I really don't get them. They should work on it day and night if want to make Atari people interested. Would be much more effective than benchmarks and MPG decoding speed claims.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:50 am

Eero Tamminen wrote:
AtariZoll wrote:EmuTOS for Amiga, on Amiga.


Clean Atari GEM programs work on Amiga EmuTOS. If somebody writes fVDI drivers for Amiga color modes, also in something else than monochrome. What higher graphics modes Vampire supports besides Amiga's standard planar modes?

I.e. for clean Atari GEM programs only CPU compatibility will be an issue. If programs need MiNT, then somebody would need add basic Amiga HW support for MiNT too...


WHy Not plugging the Vampire into an Atari? Can be ST, can be STE, can be TT, can be Falcon... Then you have the Original Hardware and you can have additional graphics Card inside Vampire. Vampire can Emulate supervidel, 1920x1280 24 Bit at 30hz or 1289x720 at 60hz. Maybe also et4000, they Need to Check.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby exxos » Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:56 am

AtariZoll wrote:My point was that so far Vampire worked not on some ST. Or at least I don't know about. All I seen is YT video where they put Vampire board into ST, via raiser (actually multiple sockets) - that was demonstration that it fits physically. What a shock ! Fits in Amiga 500, so fits in ST. Still, nothing from seeing it running. Actually, I really don't get them. They should work on it day and night if want to make Atari people interested. Would be much more effective than benchmarks and MPG decoding speed claims.


Thats what I thought right at the start. And the thread pointed out hardly mentioned ST even. Seems a long jump from "couple of posts and plugging into a ST" to actually having something running. Why not just send picture of adapter PCB with 8ghz quadcore cpu instead ?

Likely more people would be on board if they actually posted some proper benchmarks running proper 68k instructions on real ST hardware instead of just spamming multiple threads on how good it is.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:14 am

1st1 wrote:...
WHy Not plugging the Vampire into an Atari? Can be ST, can be STE, can be TT, can be Falcon... Then you have the Original Hardware and you can have additional graphics Card inside Vampire. Vampire can Emulate supervidel, 1920x1280 24 Bit at 30hz or 1289x720 at 60hz. Maybe also et4000, they Need to Check.

Man, this thread is about standalone version. As I know there are to ways (as ST accelerator and standalone) at moment considered, in plan.
I think that accelerator idea is not so perspective because can not achieve so high speeds as standalone, plus Ataris are now really old, so more people wants complete new HW, from new components. Of course, much depends from prices. But we are really far from knowing it.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby rpineau » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:15 am

1st1 wrote:
WHy Not plugging the Vampire into an Atari? Can be ST, can be STE, can be TT, can be Falcon... Then you have the Original Hardware and you can have additional graphics Card inside Vampire. Vampire can Emulate supervidel, 1920x1280 24 Bit at 30hz or 1289x720 at 60hz. Maybe also et4000, they Need to Check.


Ok, time to call it. I don't care if I get ban for this.
You're full of s%^t.... it can't emulate the supervidel .. not because of technical issue, but because they have no cluck%$^ing clue how it works, they don't know sh%^t about how a ST, STE, TT or Falcon works, and plugging a card on the 68000 socket doesn't make it compatible, and they spend the last 2 years telling any Atari hardware dev to go f$%k themselves.
The current Vampire is missing some signals that prevents it from even working in a ST !! May be the one they are working on does have all the 6800 signal (E, VMA and VPA). yet to be confirmed. Have they even booted a ST with it (besides removing the shielding from the video area where the Shifter is to "fit" the card .. I haven't sen any ST running with this card.).
We're all about new things and new toys ... but we're not fools.
So yes it's a cool card for the Amiga... and may be for the ST in the future... but for now , from a ST standpoint .. VAPORWARE.
So they might be the best CPU designer in the work, the best VHDL coder ever seen ... So to be really honest, I would love to have a 68020 FPGA than I can just plug in a 68020 socket, a 68000 FPGA than I can plug in a ST/STE/MSTE on the 68000 socket, and a 68030 FGPA that I can plug in a TT... all of this with a faster clock and what not...
But for now all I see is a lot of noise from people that told us to shove it where the sun doesn't shine a few years ago and that now realize that if they want to make it on the Atari , they need the help of the very same people they bashed...
So we get it .. you want it .. then go talk to them .. work with them, teach them how the Atari works (all of them as every revision is slightly different (ST/STE/MSTE/Stacy/CT Book, then TT... Falcon ... )). When they can prove to us that they actually understand what it takes (and drop the attitude), then may be we'll be more encline to listen to fan boys ... but for now.. we're going to wait and see ( and I'm going to skip the whole part about graphic card ... this would take a looooong post just for this).
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:37 am

AtariZoll wrote:
1st1 wrote:...
WHy Not plugging the Vampire into an Atari? Can be ST, can be STE, can be TT, can be Falcon... Then you have the Original Hardware and you can have additional graphics Card inside Vampire. Vampire can Emulate supervidel, 1920x1280 24 Bit at 30hz or 1289x720 at 60hz. Maybe also et4000, they Need to Check.

Man, this thread is about standalone version. As I know there are to ways (as ST accelerator and standalone) at moment considered, in plan.
I think that accelerator idea is not so perspective because can not achieve so high speeds as standalone, plus Ataris are now really old, so more people wants complete new HW, from new components. Of course, much depends from prices. But we are really far from knowing it.


They performance already in AMIGA 500 and AMIGA 600 hardware with AMIGA OS and EMUTOS. Under AMiga OS the poerformance is outstanding. They play MPEG video on Workbench. Why not also in ST???

They are already evaluate 1040 ST. Gunnar told me already on phone that they already got get Desktop with TOS 2.06 visible. TOS 2.06 would not run in an AMiga, it must have been an ST. But no drives, no keyboard/mouse to interact, or it crashed/freezed.

They are starting to go to ATARI NOW. It's not high priority for them yet as they have to learn first about ATARI ST. I provide them already inforation, as good as I can with my limited knowledge. I linked them to pictures of different ST, different 1040 layouts, Profibuch, informations about TOS versions, overview about add on graphics (ET4000, NOVA, VOVA, Mach32, Mach64 in Falcon, SuperVidel, Firebee enhanced Videl, Overscan, ...), about situation on IDE interface, and so on. But just overview, not to deep into technical.

apollo-forum: Prepping the Atari 1040ST for a Vampire Install

When thy have the turbo card working, they will have "only" to add the missing components from the ST board (like MFP, floppy, dma, sound,...) and then they have standalone. One step after the other. And they want to add additional graphics mode via an SuperVidel to SAGA "wrapper" (register adress and meaning mapping) as it makes sense to have high resolution with fast CPU. They do something like "super CT60" for standard ST. (Additionally the original registers of SAGA should be reachable under TOS as well, so you can use AMIGA OCS/ECS/AGA graphics modes on an ST...)

It starts now. AMIGA guys make ATARI accelerator which is fast like hell. And ATARI people only discuss and stick their fingers in nose.

Wake up! They support us. We have to support them. We all would profit from that. Believe me.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:55 am

rpineau wrote:
1st1 wrote:
WHy Not plugging the Vampire into an Atari? Can be ST, can be STE, can be TT, can be Falcon... Then you have the Original Hardware and you can have additional graphics Card inside Vampire. Vampire can Emulate supervidel, 1920x1280 24 Bit at 30hz or 1289x720 at 60hz. Maybe also et4000, they Need to Check.


Ok, time to call it. I don't care if I get ban for this.
You're full of s%^t.... it can't emulate the supervidel .. not because of technical issue, but because they have no cluck%$^ing clue how it works, they don't know sh%^t about how a ST, STE, TT or Falcon works, and plugging a card on the 68000 socket doesn't make it compatible, and they spend the last 2 years telling any Atari hardware dev to go f$%k themselves.
The current Vampire is missing some signals that prevents it from even working in a ST !! May be the one they are working on does have all the 6800 signal (E, VMA and VPA). yet to be confirmed. Have they even booted a ST with it (besides removing the shielding from the video area where the Shifter is to "fit" the card .. I haven't sen any ST running with this card.).
We're all about new things and new toys ... but we're not fools.
So yes it's a cool card for the Amiga... and may be for the ST in the future... but for now , from a ST standpoint .. VAPORWARE.
So they might be the best CPU designer in the work, the best VHDL coder ever seen ... So to be really honest, I would love to have a 68020 FPGA than I can just plug in a 68020 socket, a 68000 FPGA than I can plug in a ST/STE/MSTE on the 68000 socket, and a 68030 FGPA that I can plug in a TT... all of this with a faster clock and what not...
But for now all I see is a lot of noise from people that told us to shove it where the sun doesn't shine a few years ago and that now realize that if they want to make it on the Atari , they need the help of the very same people they bashed...
So we get it .. you want it .. then go talk to them .. work with them, teach them how the Atari works (all of them as every revision is slightly different (ST/STE/MSTE/Stacy/CT Book, then TT... Falcon ... )). When they can prove to us that they actually understand what it takes (and drop the attitude), then may be we'll be more encline to listen to fan boys ... but for now.. we're going to wait and see ( and I'm going to skip the whole part about graphic card ... this would take a looooong post just for this).


We clarified this already. Apollo core supports the full signals on 68000 bus in ST. Also Amiga runs 68000 syncronous and asyncronous mode. It also is prepared for BUS error function used in ST for illegal hardware adresses they just could not test this yet as Amiga does not this. What you may refer to is Vampire 1 board layout. Vampire 2 is different. And Vampire 3 (name not decided yet, as board design ist not by Majesta, but by Apollo team), comming soon, will be again modified, but this is mainly for better mass production capabilities.

SAGA can display all graphics modes of SuperVidel, it's like a smiss army knife. It can display any RGB tripple mode, any bitplane mode, any color depth upt to 24 Bit. They only need to make register mapping to be compatible with SuperVidel hardware registers. Gunnar already downloaded SuperVidel specs, studied and confirmed this. They want to go this way. And they need YOUR help to check details. It's not necessary to immediatelly make VHDL code for them, it's not immediatelly neccessary to write drivers or TOS modification for them, maybe later. Neccessaryto talk with them. Simple step.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:13 am

ericgus wrote:megaST MiST settings


Hm. Blitting speed drops to 1/3rd compared to ST+blitter, although CPU clock is 2x (which is visible in many other tests)... This seems wrong, 16Mhz 020 should be at least as fast as 8Mz 68000 with blitter.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:19 am

My ST with PAK68/2 is faster than 8MHz ST with Blitter. I removed blitter again from my ST after inserting the PAK.

And back to Apollo: http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=apollo-team - Gunnar van Boehm is online at the moment. I am in chat with him at the moment. He is waiting for more ATARI contacts.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby calimero » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:52 pm

rpineau wrote:You're full of s%^t.... it can't emulate the supervidel .. not because of technical issue, but because they have no cluck%$^ing clue how it works, they don't know sh%^t about how a ST, STE, TT or Falcon works, and plugging a card on the 68000 socket doesn't make it compatible, and they spend the last 2 years telling any Atari hardware dev to go f$%k themselves.


rpineau wrote:But for now all I see is a lot of noise from people that told us to shove it where the sun doesn't shine a few years ago and that now realize that if they want to make it on the Atari , they need the help of the very same people they bashed...


Please can you be more specific?
To whom, when and what did Apollo/Vampire tell?

I also always wonder why there was no before any talks between Atari hardware developers (e.g. MiST, Rodolphe Czuba, Exxos and other) and Apollo/Vampire team... but apparently there was some "talk"?
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:12 pm

Just one more thing. Apollo internally has two system busses where you can dock other hardware as VHDL objects in. One is AXI system bus from ARM processors. The other is Avalon which is the default system bis from Altera/Intel. Any VHDL modelled hardware following one of these industry standards could be directly attached into the core. That means also, if you want to extend the thing, no need to touch the 68080 core, just attach the devices to these system busses. You only need to take care on adress conflicts by already integrated units.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Frank B » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:38 pm

Can we have a dedicated vampire sub forum? It would make it easier to avoid all the Vampire noise. It's bad enough having every Amiga forum polluted with fan boys! Come back when it *works* on an ST. Hell come back when it's fully 68000 (1977 model) compatible!

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:39 pm

Currently it is just one or two thread which is active.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby rpineau » Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:38 pm

@Calimero : Vampire Team to me and exxos (Wether the team is still the same or not..).
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:14 pm

So, did you talked with them?
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:31 pm

Just a note from me again: There will be christmals and easter on one day some day... Remember this sentence when it happens... :cheers:
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Rajah Lone » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:50 pm

@1st1: please calm your enthusiasm. This project seems to be great but the way you reply is counterproductive. In other word: you become some sort of troll. You are annoying some people (including me) with flood and vapor.

Announce has been made. People is warned enough. So I suggest you to work/help on this project instead of spending time writing posts.

I was in the organization team (Triple A) of the µAlchimie IV convention where RELEC showed the Vampire on Amiga 600 and 500. I had really no time to inquire about it during the party, but I can assure you people are informed.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Sorgelig » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:29 am

1) it will be closed source
2) rocket high price with relatively cheap components. (250EUR for low-cell Cyclone III with couple RAM chips and connectors???)
3) a lot of moaning and cry "oh, we don't want it factory assembled, so we will do this by hands 1pc per week. Please stand in line, and may be 1 year later you will get it."

Pretty semi-dead project, as original Vampire V2 add-on board. Seeing a lot of dramas around Apollo team, i won't surprise if they will stop support somewhere in the middle leaving their customer with semi-working device without ability to improve.

It's like FPGArcade - author started to make it as closed source alone and didn't realize how much effort it will require. As a result, everyone who originally may be was excited, already forgot about this. Project is some kind alive, but in permanent "release soon" state with crazy price and almost no cores available for this board.
Such FPGA boards cannot get popularity being closed source because they need development and constant improvements. No one alone will provide enough development for such boards. And without active development it will die very fast.. Look at Chameleon for example. It's not on sale already.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby ericgus » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:46 pm

Sorgelig wrote: Project is some kind alive, but in permanent "release soon" state with crazy price and almost no cores available for this board.
... . It's not on sale already.


I actually only recently heard from the creator of the FPGA Arcade (by accident as he happened to actually be a member of a retro gaming FB group I was in) that its actually possible to buy one but its very convoluted on how to actually do it.. I guess part of the "not on sale" problem is he just hasn't gotten around to doing a proper store front (or fixing the one he has) or something to that effect.. My comment was well you are losing a lot of sales to the MiST .. But for all practical purposes, its not easy to buy and might as well be "not on sale" ..

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:41 am

I think, most of FPGA board developers (HW developers) think their product can be stolen by someone like chinese manufaturer, and they will get nothing. But in reality, FPGA boards are very niche and won't attract a big mfg. Especially if it narrowed by Amiga community which is not known in China at all. More time will pass - less interested people will remain. It's not developing market, but rather dying. Make HW, sell it and give open source to community. HW developer will only get benefit from it. More people will be involved into development.
If Apollo team doesn't understand it, then they choose a wrong way.. Soon they will be tired by SW(core) development and will abandon the project because the release will be postponed because of core, and without sales they won't get income. Not a good circle of problems.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby alexh » Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:51 am

The open source license agreements for MiniMig and Suska (while different) are both of the kind which prevent their source being used in closed source projects. The Apollo team will have to "start again" or secure new license agreements. Or perhaps use two FPGA's on their stand alone versions.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Newsdee » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:28 pm

I like the ZxUno route where they developed the board, then put it under CC license giving away all schematics and BOM. Some chinese manufacturer picking it up and making it for cheap would be the best they could hope for. :)

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:11 pm

Sorgelig wrote:If Apollo team doesn't understand it, then they choose a wrong way..


Don't forget, 68000 is not only ST, Amiga and Mac. That CPu used to be zje heard of several consoles as well. Or think about embedded computers using 68k for controlling machines, cars, airplanes, ... The Apollo could be a processor for all of this.
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