Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Atarieterno » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:01 am

I do not know that data, I have one F030 and one MKX but no CT60 or Supervidel, my interest was based on memory expansion (14 Mbytes), SCSI to SD, IDE to CF, CosmosEx and video-adapter for more hight resolution; But perhaps I speak as a musician.
Well, each person is free to use their pocket as they please if we are going to adopt the Amiga business forms, after no one complains.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:34 am

There is no "must buy" for anyone, even if such a product is available. It's another option for enthusiast.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Frank B » Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:33 pm

The stand alone version is more interesting than the CPU card version. This is depending on how good the SAGA emulation of AGA is and what extra features it adds. No Atari support however as expected. No MMU or FPU either?

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby OL » Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:38 pm

Frank B wrote:The stand alone version is more interesting than the CPU card version. This is depending on how good the SAGA emulation of AGA is and what extra features it adds. No Atari support however as expected. No MMU or FPU either?


Appolo core support an MMU but not compatible with other 68K CPU, Appolo core support FPU but up to now there was not enough memory on Vampire V2 card, so I suppose it will be available on the V4.

We can work to have good support of SAGA in Emutos
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Frank B » Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:39 pm

OL wrote:
Frank B wrote:The stand alone version is more interesting than the CPU card version. This is depending on how good the SAGA emulation of AGA is and what extra features it adds. No Atari support however as expected. No MMU or FPU either?


Appolo core support an MMU but not compatible with other 68K CPU, Appolo core support FPU but up to now there was not enough memory on Vampire V2 card, so I suppose it will be available on the V4.

We can work to have good support of SAGA in Emutos


It should really just mimic the 040 MMU or the 030 one. A custom one means retrofitting support to it for mint etc.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby OL » Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:54 pm

Frank B wrote:
OL wrote:
Frank B wrote:The stand alone version is more interesting than the CPU card version. This is depending on how good the SAGA emulation of AGA is and what extra features it adds. No Atari support however as expected. No MMU or FPU either?


Appolo core support an MMU but not compatible with other 68K CPU, Appolo core support FPU but up to now there was not enough memory on Vampire V2 card, so I suppose it will be available on the V4.

We can work to have good support of SAGA in Emutos


It should really just mimic the 040 MMU or the 030 one. A custom one means retrofitting support to it for mint etc.


In all case if we want take advantage of 68080 Mint need to be updated (more register to save, MMU ...) but Mint can work as it is and already run under 68080. Who use protected mode? near nobody, perhaps some developpers as I do to remove bugs
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Frank B » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:26 pm

OL wrote:
Frank B wrote:
OL wrote:
Appolo core support an MMU but not compatible with other 68K CPU, Appolo core support FPU but up to now there was not enough memory on Vampire V2 card, so I suppose it will be available on the V4.

We can work to have good support of SAGA in Emutos


It should really just mimic the 040 MMU or the 030 one. A custom one means retrofitting support to it for mint etc.


In all case if we want take advantage of 68080 Mint need to be updated (more register to save, MMU ...) but Mint can work as it is and already run under 68080. Who use protected mode? near nobody, perhaps some developpers as I do to remove bugs


I'd rather have memory protection in Mint if at all possible. I can't remember if Magic supports memory protection. If it does then a compatible MMU would be nice.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby OL » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:33 pm

Frank B wrote:
OL wrote:
Frank B wrote:
It should really just mimic the 040 MMU or the 030 one. A custom one means retrofitting support to it for mint etc.


In all case if we want take advantage of 68080 Mint need to be updated (more register to save, MMU ...) but Mint can work as it is and already run under 68080. Who use protected mode? near nobody, perhaps some developpers as I do to remove bugs


I'd rather have memory protection in Mint if at all possible. I can't remember if Magic supports memory protection. If it does then a compatible MMU would be nice.


No Magic has no memory protection
You use Mint in protected mode? For me system crash more than without! I not see really useful of it in Atari world a lot of software are absolutely not compatible with this
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Frank B » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:41 pm

OL wrote:
Frank B wrote:
OL wrote:
In all case if we want take advantage of 68080 Mint need to be updated (more register to save, MMU ...) but Mint can work as it is and already run under 68080. Who use protected mode? near nobody, perhaps some developpers as I do to remove bugs


I'd rather have memory protection in Mint if at all possible. I can't remember if Magic supports memory protection. If it does then a compatible MMU would be nice.


No Magic has no memory protection
You use Mint in protected mode? For me system crash more than without! I not see really useful of it in Atari world a lot of software are absolutely not compatible with this


I used to use it in memory protection mode on the Falcon yes.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby joska » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:22 pm

OL wrote:You use Mint in protected mode? For me system crash more than without! I not see really useful of it in Atari world a lot of software are absolutely not compatible with this


Maybe not useful for you, but definitely useful for others! The lack of memory protection is why I'm not using my Firebee anymore. It is also the reason why the Vampire is of no interest for me until it has a proper MMU. I find memory protection to be extremely useful when programming, it catches bugs and errors that could otherwise go unnoticed.

I think memory protection has been enabled 100% of the time I've been using MiNT the last 20 years. Programs that does not work with memory protection are usually not usable in a multitasking environment anyway.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby vido » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:38 pm

I find memory protection very useful. I had very stable system with it enabled on my Milan060. It is shame it is not available for the FireBee.
When you find what software make troubles with MP enabled you just dont use it anyway. I had no need to use such software at all.
Last edited by vido on Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby shoggoth » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:48 pm

Agree 100% with Joska on this one.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby calimero » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:14 pm

Is there any list of apps that work or do not work with memory protection?

I left option for this information to be written on my http://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ but I do not have time to test all software (I still did not finished with all screenshots and descriptions...)
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Atarieterno » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:37 pm

I have a question, if someone has some solid information, it has been a year since the announcement of the possibility of Vampire for Atari and still does not see anything concrete: is anyone really working on this for Atari?
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby frank.lukas » Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:07 pm

Wish nothing else ...

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Frank B » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:31 pm

vido wrote:I find memory protection very useful. I had very stable system with it enabled on my Milan060. It is shame it is not available for the FireBee.
When you find what software make troubles with MP enabled you just dont use it anyway. I had no need to use such software at all.


If software doesn't work in a memory protection environment, it can't by definition be stable. I don't think I'd go near a vampire until there's proper MMU support.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Atarieterno » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:10 am

Atarieterno wrote:...but how many "Vampire" to 300 or 400 € could be sold? That would be an exclusive product with inflated price...

I quote myself, XD.

The amount is more realistic if we talk about 400 or 500 €, is a fact that have communicated people who are clients of that business.

Honestly, I have no faith in that team focusing on Atari, because they already have many Amiga customers. I'm also concerned that this card is not a "booster", is something that would transform an ST into "zombie": what would use the computer, only the label ?, the power supply? The card looks like it can run autonomously, maybe it does not need a computer to work.

75% of modern Atari developers build moderately priced devices, I do not like the "apollized" Amigans system and its expensive prices.

Let's support the developers of Atari, we have several and very good.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby PeterS » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:09 pm

I've never used MP on the Milan. I tried it but Thing desktop didn't work so I switched MP off again.

Mint on the Milan is very stable even without it and few apps crash. The ones that do crash would probably crash in MP as well.

I would consider a very fast FPGA "CPU" upgrade for the Milan, at the right price. If it is only 3-4 times faster than it is less easy to justify but at 6-10 times the speed of a 68060 50MHz it becomes an easier decision as long as compatibility is good.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby joska » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:38 pm

PeterS wrote:I've never used MP on the Milan. I tried it but Thing desktop didn't work so I switched MP off again.


It's not Thing! that doesn't work, but some other application that tells Thing! to access PRIVATE memory via the AV-protocol.

PeterS wrote:Mint on the Milan is very stable even without it and few apps crash. The ones that do crash would probably crash in MP as well.


The difference is that with MP, applications are killed when they try to read or modify memory it does not own. With MP disabled, any app can do whatever it wants to any other app's memory. So bugs does not have to manifest itself as crashes. Instead you might experience vague, odd problems caused by a buggy program messing up another program's code or data.

PeterS wrote:I would consider a very fast FPGA "CPU" upgrade for the Milan, at the right price.


Well, the Milan needs an MMU so for now the Vampire core is not usable. This also applies to the Hades and CT6x.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby PeterS » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:47 pm

I haven't tried MP again since I updated from Ming! to Thing!

Having a full replacement for the 68060 would be the best option, better than moving to a less capable although faster cpu.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:46 am

I think all of you should talk less about them but more with them. Just to summarize up the latest news:

Apollo Team demonstrate EmuTOS/MiNT on all events where they go as an alternative to AmigaOS. They recently did. in France and on Amiga32 in Neuss, Germany.

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4&note=10344
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5&note=11115

They currently work hard on hardware FPU. They already demonstrate Kronos result in compare to Falcon with ct60 at 100 MHz. The result is impressive, up to 2.87 times faster than accelerated Falcon. But they don‘t compare to Firebee/Coldfire. Can you do and present to them? On your comparison you should use Falcon at 100 MHz as reference for direct comparison.

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=2&note=10876

They now talk more about MMU. They still state that their new MMU is better than ans 68k MMU, and technically this could be true, but a lot of people say that existing Software is incompatible to it. They already outlook that 68k MMU could be adapted ontop of their MMU.

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=2&note=10876

I think you should more talk with them as about them. The Apollo team are very sympathic peoples but we must also understand that they have their roadmap and priorities. Anyhow with good arguments I think we can influence this.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Cyprian » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:56 am

1st1 wrote:I think all of you should talk less about them but more with them.

is there Vampire for Atari? No.
Therefore talk about what? amiga hardware??
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby frank.lukas » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:35 am

I think that the whole Thread is useless, there will never be an Atari version ...

EmuTOS on a Amiga is nice.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Cyprian » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:14 am

just to be precise, I'm excited about Vampire card for Atari, but Amiga (with or without Vampire) is out of my scope of interest.
And yep, EmuTOS on a Amiga is nice. :)
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:50 am

Cyprian wrote:
1st1 wrote:I think all of you should talk less about them but more with them.



Do you know what is a "chicken egg problem" ???

You complain that there is no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no vampire adapted to Atari and no Atari guys help them to develop as there is no Vampire for Atari as no ....

Hopely the french guys advance in silence.
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