Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby mathieulh » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:36 pm

I can confirm that the Rankie adapter works just fine here for Direct Video.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby tenshin2002 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:07 pm

Damn! I just ordered an I/O board today and then I see this thread...

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Help, no sync over direct video!

Postby deBaer » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:23 am

Hi,

I just got the DE10-Nano and while I'm waiting for the IO-Board, I tried the VGA adapter. But no matter what I configure, I cannot get any VGA monitor to show anything, neither the CRT (Hansol 720E) I want to use, nor any LCD I tried for testing.

I'm using the lastest release versions of everything and my MiSTer.ini is this:

Code: Select all

[MiSTer]
key_menu_as_rgui=0     ; set to 1 to make the MENU key map to RGUI in Minimig (e.g. for Right Amiga)
forced_scandoubler=1   ; set to 1 to run scandoubler on VGA output always (depends on core).
ypbpr=0                ; set to 1 for YPbPr on VGA output.
composite_sync=0       ; set to 1 for composite sync on HSync signal of VGA output.
vga_scaler=0           ; set to 1 to connect VGA to scaler output.
hdmi_audio_96k=0       ; set to 1 for 96khz/16bit HDMI audio (48khz/16bit otherwise)
keyrah_mode=0x18d80002 ; VIDPID of keyrah for special code translation (0x23418037 for Arduino Micro)
volumectl=1            ; enable audio volume control by multimedia keys
vscale_mode=0          ; 0 - scale to fit the screen height.
                       ; 1 - use integer scale only.
                       ; 2 - use 0.5 steps of scale.
                       ; 3 - use 0.25 steps of scale.
vscale_border=0        ; set vertical border for TVs cutting the upper/bottom parts of screen (1-399)
;bootscreen=0          ; uncomment to disable boot screen of some cores like Minimig.
;mouse_throttle=10     ; 1-100 mouse speed divider. Useful for very sensitive mice
rbf_hide_datecode=0    ; 1 - hides datecodes from rbf file names. Press F2 for quick temporary toggle
menu_pal=0             ; 1 - PAL mode for menu core
hdmi_limited=2         ; 1 - use limited (16..235) color range over HDMI
                       ; 2 - use limited (16..255) color range over HDMI, for VGA converters.
direct_video=1         ; 1 - enable core video timing over HDMI, use only with VGA converters.
fb_size=0              ; 0 - automatic, 1 - full size, 2 - 1/2 of resolution, 4 - 1/4 of resolution.
fb_terminal=1          ; 1 - enabled (default), 0 - disabled
osd_timeout=30         ; 5-3600 timeout (in seconds) for OSD to disappear in Menu core. 30 seconds if not set.
                       ; Background picture will get darker after double timeout

; 1 - enables the recent file loaded/mounted.
; WARNING: This option will enable write to SD card on every load/mount which may wear the SD card after many writes to the same place
;          There is also higher chance to corrupt the File System if MiSTer will be reset or powered off while writing.
recents=0

; lastcore - Autoboot the last loaded core (corename autosaved in CONFIG/lastcore.dat) first found on the SD/USB
; lastexactcore - Autoboot the last loaded exact core (corename_yyyymmdd.rbf autosaved in CONFIG/lastcore.dat) first found on the SD/USB
; corename - Autoboot first corename_*.rbf found on the SD/USB
; corename_yyyymmdd.rbf - Autoboot first corename_yyyymmdd.rbf found on the SD/USB
;bootcore=lastcore    ; uncomment to autoboot a core, as the last loaded core.
bootcore_timeout=10  ; 10-30 timeout before autoboot, comment for autoboot without timeout.

; Option to load the custom font. Format is plain bitmap 8x8.
; Supported sizes of font:
;   768 bytes - chars 32-127 (only alpha + numeric)
;  1024 bytes - chars 0-127
;  1136 bytes - chars 0-141
;  up to 2048 - only chars 0-141 will be used.
; if first 32 chars are empty (for sizes 1024 bytes and more) then they are skipped.
font=font/myfont.pf

; USER button emulation by keybaord. Usually it's reset button.
; 0 - lctrl+lalt+ralt (lctrl+lgui+rgui on keyrah)
; 1 - lctrl+lgui+rgui
; 2 - lctrl+lalt+del
; 3 - same as 0 (lctrl+lalt+ralt on keyrah)
reset_combo=0

dvi_mode=0             ; set to 1 for DVI mode. Audio won't be transmitted through HDMI in DVI mode.

; 0 - 1280x720@60
; 1 - 1024x768@60
; 2 - 720x480@60
; 3 - 720x576@50
; 4 - 1280x1024@60
; 5 - 800x600@60
; 6 - 640x480@60
; 7 - 1280x720@50
; 8 - 1920x1080@60
; 9 - 1920x1080@50
;10 - 1366x768@60
;11 - 1024x600@60
;
; custom mode: hact,hfp,hs,hbp,vact,vfp,vs,vbp,Fpix_in_KHz
;   video_mode=1280,110,40,220,720,5,5,20,74250
video_mode=0

; set to 1-10 (seconds) to display video info on startup/change
video_info=10

; Set to 1 for automatic HDMI VSync rate adjust to match original VSync.
; Set to 2 for low latency mode (single buffer).
; This option makes video butter smooth like on original emulated system.
; Adjusting is done by changing pixel clock. Not every display supports variable pixel clock.
; For proper adjusting and to reduce possible out of range pixel clock, use 60Hz HDMI video
; modes as a base even for 50Hz systems.
vsync_adjust=0

; These parameters have the same format as video_mode.
; You need to supply both PAL and NTSC modes if you want vsync_adjust to switch between
; predefined modes as a base. This will reduce the range of pixel clock.
;video_mode_ntsc=0
;video_mode_pal=7


I had a look at the sync lines of the VGA and they look like in the screenshot, measuring at about 60 Hz for VSync and about 15.5 kHz for HSync. The RGB lines have the expected white noise of the menu core. I'm using the Rankie adapter with AG6200 and external 5V plugged in, but I also tried the UGREEN with CH7101B to the same effect.

Capture.PNG


When I switch off direct video and use an HDMI connection to an LCD, it's working fine. What am I doing wrong?
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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby Sorgelig » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:33 am

May be your CRT monitor doesn't support hsync/vsync produced by the cores?
VGA output never been an ultimate solution as only few monitors can support wide variety of video formats from different cores.
That's why MiSTer's main video output is HDMI.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby DrOG » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:41 am

Only a few VGA monitors (called multisync) accept interlaced video signal, here's a list of those:
http://15khz.wikidot.com
Try 31kHz HSync, it's more compatible and should work fine.

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Re: Help, no sync over direct video!

Postby paulbnl » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:43 am

deBaer wrote:I had a look at the sync lines of the VGA and they look like in the screenshot, measuring at about 60 Hz for VSync and about 15.5 kHz for HSync.


You have set forced_scandoubler=1 in MiSTer.ini so you should be getting 31Khz Hsync.

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Re: Help, no sync over direct video!

Postby deBaer » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:58 am

paulbnl wrote:You have set forced_scandoubler=1 in MiSTer.ini so you should be getting 31Khz Hsync.


OK, cool, I played around with the ini a bit more and now I get about 31 kHz on HSync on the osci, but the monitor stays blank.

This is the relevant part of the data sheet of the 720E:
Bandwidth
110MHz
Horizontal Refresh Rate
30~72kHz
Vertical Refresh Rate
47~160Hz

So I should be within spec. LCDs with VGA port also still do not work.

The HDMI-VGA-converters both work on a MacBook. I feel like I've run out of options somehow.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby paulbnl » Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:16 pm

For testing, try to set direct_video=0, vga_scaler=1, video_mode=6 to get 640x480 resolution. If that does not work then something else is wrong.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby deBaer » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:14 pm

paulbnl wrote:For testing, try to set direct_video=0, vga_scaler=1, video_mode=6 to get 640x480 resolution. If that does not work then something else is wrong.


Thanks, this actually works:

Code: Select all

[MiSTer]
direct_video=0
vga_scaler=1
video_mode=6


But why doesn't any variant of direct video? With scandoubler, shouldn't the output be about the same as 640x480x60Hz? Or was it some other innocent looking option I purged from the ini? That will take some more fiddling, but now I have a base to start this from… :-)

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby Sorgelig » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:53 am

deBaer wrote:But why doesn't any variant of direct video? With scandoubler, shouldn't the output be about the same as 640x480x60Hz?

Nope. Output resolution varies from core to core in direct video. Just like on VGA output.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby trashuncle » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:04 am

Does direct video care about the sync option chosen or is that also only for HDMI? (Match display, match core, or Low Latency)
I've been setting it to match core on my PVM, but I tried low latency out of curiosity and noticed no difference.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby paulbnl » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:22 am

deBaer wrote:Thanks, this actually works:

Code: Select all

[MiSTer]
direct_video=0
vga_scaler=1
video_mode=6


But why doesn't any variant of direct video? With scandoubler, shouldn't the output be about the same as 640x480x60Hz? Or was it some other innocent looking option I purged from the ini? That will take some more fiddling, but now I have a base to start this from… :-)


The menu core has slightly different video timings but a CRT should not have any problem with it.

Try to add vsync_adjust=1 or 2 to see if it still works. It should output at around 59.8Hz then.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby Peredonov » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:13 pm

I think there may be a bug in the direct video output from the Boot Menu service core (tested menu.rbf 200115 release, MiSTer binary v200113). It may be related to the menu background, as cycling through background with F1 key results in either a blank 15khz detected by the CRT or a rolling picture of the menu. All other cores compatible with direct video display a picture without problems. Tested with two different HDMI-VGA adaptors on a multisync broadcast monitor that is very tolerant of unconventional signals.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby Sorgelig » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:43 am

I often use direct video due to testing of different cores. No problem with Menu core over direct video.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby Peredonov » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:31 pm

Sorgelig wrote:I often use direct video due to testing of different cores. No problem with Menu core over direct video.


Here's a video, starts on TurboGrafx core (but many other cores work too), switching to a backup of current Menu core, you can also see the effect of cycling through different backgrounds. There is one that syncs but shows no picture, while the others don't sync and show a rolling picture:

https://youtu.be/1YKjHuJcgQI

I would guess the problem is with the sync signal of the Menu core, perhaps it needs some adjustment for wider compatibility. This result happens using HDMI-VGA and an Extron Rxi as a sync combiner to feed RGBS to a multisync broadcast monitor, which is known to handle pretty much every signal thrown at it, except this one apparently.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby paulbnl » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:40 pm

Peredonov wrote:I think there may be a bug in the direct video output from the Boot Menu service core (tested menu.rbf 200115 release, MiSTer binary v200113). It may be related to the menu background, as cycling through background with F1 key results in either a blank 15khz detected by the CRT or a rolling picture of the menu. All other cores compatible with direct video display a picture without problems. Tested with two different HDMI-VGA adaptors on a multisync broadcast monitor that is very tolerant of unconventional signals.


Try an older menu core release.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby Peredonov » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:09 pm

paulbnl wrote:
Try an older menu core release.


I did try the two prior releases. The result was the same as shown in the video I linked in my previous post (https://youtu.be/1YKjHuJcgQI). On which release was direct video support added? I can try to see if it works differently, assuming changes were made to the menu core's video since then. That said, the fact that other direct video-compatible cores display correctly indicates there is something off with the menu core's direct video, even if it works on TVs/monitors like the one Sorgelig tests with.

Maybe someone with an oscilloscope could take a look.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby paulbnl » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:29 pm

The result should not be exactly the same with the previous releases because those don't support the colored backgrounds with directvideo.

The Hsync used for when the colored backgrounds are active is a bit too long.

Try these settings to see if you get the same issue:

Code: Select all

[Menu]
video_mode=640,16,96,48,240,4,4,14,12587
vga_scaler=1
direct_video=0


After that try these to see if anything changes:

Code: Select all

[Menu]
video_mode=640,30,60,70,240,4,4,14,12587
vga_scaler=1
direct_video=0

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby Peredonov » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:19 pm

paulbnl wrote:After that try these to see if anything changes:

Code: Select all

[Menu]
video_mode=640,30,60,70,240,4,4,14,12587
vga_scaler=1
direct_video=0


The first one made no difference, but this one solved the problem. I also suspected the issue was with the hsync and the colored backgrounds. A setting to deactivate them, or adjusting the hsync of the menu core's backgrounds, would be good as I suspect more and more people with similar broadcast/picture monitor setups will encounter this issue as well. This will do as a workaround for now. Thanks paulbnl :D

I wonder what CRT Sorgelig tests with, maybe it is a multisync PC CRT? That could be why it manages to handle this whacky hsync.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby paulbnl » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:28 pm

Ok so the problem was indeed the long Hsync.

@Sorgelig Please change the tvmodes of NTSC/PAL 15Khz to 640, 30, 60, 70 instead of 640, 16, 96, 48.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby Sorgelig » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:36 pm

paulbnl wrote:@Sorgelig Please change the tvmodes of NTSC/PAL 15Khz to 640, 30, 60, 70 instead of 640, 16, 96, 48.

ok.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby Sorgelig » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:41 pm

Peredonov wrote:I wonder what CRT Sorgelig tests with, maybe it is a multisync PC CRT? That could be why it manages to handle this whacky hsync.

I use external VGA->HDMI scaler to test TV/VGA output.

More i hear about these PVM/BVM - more i conclude they are rubbish. Original legacy analog TVs/Monitors are very tolerant to signal parameters as they use analog schematics. But these PVM/BVM took worst from both worlds: 1) they are worse than LCD because they aren't flat and don't provide pixel to pixel map 2) they are worse than original CRT because too picky to signal parameters.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby brandon9271 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:34 pm

and worse because they cost so much!! :D

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby Peredonov » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:57 pm

Sorgelig wrote:More i hear about these PVM/BVM - more i conclude they are rubbish. Original legacy analog TVs/Monitors are very tolerant to signal parameters as they use analog schematics. But these PVM/BVM took worst from both worlds: 1) they are worse than LCD because they aren't flat and don't provide pixel to pixel map 2) they are worse than original CRT because too picky to signal parameters.



Well, the most common reasons people use CRT P/BVMs is because, if in proper shape, they can provide unparalleled color accuracy, as well as sharpness and overall picture quality and durability. You can get similar results with very good late PC CRTs, but the colors will not be as good. I use a 1000 TVL flat 24inch widescreen BVM (model D24), and I have it next to a 25 inch 1080p RGB OLED BVM (F250, MiSTEr's scaled output looks incredible on this monitor as you can imagine), and when I feed them the same HD source the CRT keeps up in almost every way, even though it's 10 years older. And of course motion resolution is way better on the CRT. Not all P/BVMs are this good but many are not far.

They also tend to not be picky about signals from all original consoles, and even crappy mods. Only some arcade boards have traditionally given them some trouble. And now the old menu core's :wink: But it's good pualbnl found the fix so no need for .ini workaround, and menu core can work for everyone both scaled and in direct mode.

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Re: Original analog video without I/O board? Possible!

Postby Stremon » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:21 am

witchmaster wrote:
Stremon wrote:
MottZilla wrote:It's good to know it works for you tho, meaning it might come from my adapter. I will try buying a different one to test.
I wonder what's the best model to buy? It's hard to know since there are many different ones.

I had problems with several cores with my previoius hdmi to vga converter. I bought a UGreen one and it works perfectly. https://www.ebay.com/itm/UGREEN-HDMI-Ma ... 2629726481

I just wanted to confirm that this UGreen adapter works flawlessly, I don't have any issues anymore!
Thank you for the recommendation ;)
The only issue left I have (but might not be even related to the direct video) is that in many cores the sound level is very very low. Meaning I have to increase the volume of my speakers, that also increase the background noises and all, which isn't ideal. Is there a way to increase the output volume manually?


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