Test Input lag: Megadrive vs MiSTer FPGA and also Megadrive vs RGB-Pi... Which one?

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Sorgelig
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Re: Test Input lag: Megadrive vs MiSTer FPGA and also Megadrive vs RGB-Pi... Which one?

Postby Sorgelig » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:58 am

It's in vain to discuss in this topic. Even after i gave the link where i've clearly wrote how SuperNT deal with refresh rate, people start to explain here how SuperNT does it.
So people don't want to read.. They blindly write whatever they want.

Ok. Leave you guys here playing your ping-pong.

vanfanel
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Re: Test Input lag: Megadrive vs MiSTer FPGA and also Megadrive vs RGB-Pi... Which one?

Postby vanfanel » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:54 am

Sorgelig wrote:It's in vain to discuss in this topic. Even after i gave the link where i've clearly wrote how SuperNT deal with refresh rate, people start to explain here how SuperNT does it.
So people don't want to read.. They blindly write whatever they want.

Ok. Leave you guys here playing your ping-pong.


I hadn't seen that, Sorgelig! I am very sorry... again. Oh man, it's incredible how stupid I can look when talking with you :oops:
Sorry, really.

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Re: Test Input lag: Megadrive vs MiSTer FPGA and also Megadrive vs RGB-Pi... Which one?

Postby sabreAZ » Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:37 pm

Sorry, late to the party on this thread. But I was rather shocked about some posts where it seemed the lag is not a big deal. I beg to differ. It's always been my major beef with playing emulators vs real hardware. The timing is off. This is what turns me on to FPGA, as this problem, that emulation can't truly get around(yes I know or retroarch runahead), FPGA solutions can solve this problem. This is a major factor as to why I support MiSTer and its future. A future where the cores could mimic the og hardware, 100%,including input lag.

I'm a former pro fighting game player. Lag means everything. Yes the arguments can be made that if there are 1-2 extra frames of lag. You can eventually get used to it. And sure, you can, but this really only applies to predictable/patterned games with a set path like platformers. You know when the jumps are, where the enemy placement is. Playing RPGs, and other games as well, not too big of a deal. So yes, merely playing with a little lag, you could get used to.

But what about games that are unpredictable, and require very fast decision making? Lag comes into play and greatly affects the game, and the Meta. Let's take Tekken 7. The game requires a ton of knowledge and reactions. A lot of high damaging low attacks in tekken are designed to be just slow enough to react to, if you know what you are looking for and can recognize to. At launch the ps4 version lagged 2 frames behind the original arcade version. Everyone in the tournament scene hated playing ps4. Those 2 added frames, could be just enough to where I can no longer react and block, and punish in time. And now my opponent has access to attacks, that are designed to be reacted to, can no longer be. Now it becomes a guess. That ruins the meta/strategy of the game. Now people can get away with stuff vs an experienced player, in which they shouldn't. Even without the added lag, it's hard to react to because you have another 1000 possible scenarios that can come at you any second, so incredibly fast decision making, based off the constantly changing scenarios, have to be factored in to a humans response time.

The Mike Tyson example holds true too, in much simpler terms.

Going back to the "just getting used to it" mentality. While I said yeah, you can get used to it, on specific genres, and predictable/patterned games. But what if I play on Mister, get used to it, then go back to OG hardware, now I'm thrown off, then I go to emulator, thrown off again. That is frustrating

I think the whole "get used to it" mentality is a real bummer to hear, especially from bigger people involved in the project. Isn't the point to shoot for accuracy? If so, input lag goes with that accuracy. It should be one area that makes fpga superior to emulation. I'm not shitting on anyone's work or the project, as I think everyone is doing an incredible job, and am super appreciative of this whole project.

I just feel it's rather crazy to brush off 1-2 frame as negligable. Maybe to some people it is. But there are many people that are very hardcore and those frames matter A LOT. Just because it feels good to you, doesnt it mean it feels good to everyone else. Another person may be playing more complex, timing intensive games, or just playing the games at a much high skill level that requires more from a player.

This is why I bought things like a super NT. Accuracy, especially with input lag, while also giving me options like an emulator, and playing on a modern display. That's really where my hopes lie for MiSTer, in the future.

Sorry long post

Tl;dr. Input lag is a big deal. Let's not try to pretend it isn't.

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Re: Test Input lag: Megadrive vs MiSTer FPGA and also Megadrive vs RGB-Pi... Which one?

Postby BahnYuki » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:18 pm

sabreAZ wrote:Sorry, late to the party on this thread. But I was rather shocked about some posts where it seemed the lag is not a big deal. I beg to differ. It's always been my major beef with playing emulators vs real hardware. The timing is off. This is what turns me on to FPGA, as this problem, that emulation can't truly get around(yes I know or retroarch runahead), FPGA solutions can solve this problem. This is a major factor as to why I support MiSTer and its future. A future where the cores could mimic the og hardware, 100%,including input lag.

I'm a former pro fighting game player. Lag means everything. Yes the arguments can be made that if there are 1-2 extra frames of lag. You can eventually get used to it. And sure, you can, but this really only applies to predictable/patterned games with a set path like platformers. You know when the jumps are, where the enemy placement is. Playing RPGs, and other games as well, not too big of a deal. So yes, merely playing with a little lag, you could get used to.

But what about games that are unpredictable, and require very fast decision making? Lag comes into play and greatly affects the game, and the Meta. Let's take Tekken 7. The game requires a ton of knowledge and reactions. A lot of high damaging low attacks in tekken are designed to be just slow enough to react to, if you know what you are looking for and can recognize to. At launch the ps4 version lagged 2 frames behind the original arcade version. Everyone in the tournament scene hated playing ps4. Those 2 added frames, could be just enough to where I can no longer react and block, and punish in time. And now my opponent has access to attacks, that are designed to be reacted to, can no longer be. Now it becomes a guess. That ruins the meta/strategy of the game. Now people can get away with stuff vs an experienced player, in which they shouldn't. Even without the added lag, it's hard to react to because you have another 1000 possible scenarios that can come at you any second, so incredibly fast decision making, based off the constantly changing scenarios, have to be factored in to a humans response time.

The Mike Tyson example holds true too, in much simpler terms.

Going back to the "just getting used to it" mentality. While I said yeah, you can get used to it, on specific genres, and predictable/patterned games. But what if I play on Mister, get used to it, then go back to OG hardware, now I'm thrown off, then I go to emulator, thrown off again. That is frustrating

I think the whole "get used to it" mentality is a real bummer to hear, especially from bigger people involved in the project. Isn't the point to shoot for accuracy? If so, input lag goes with that accuracy. It should be one area that makes fpga superior to emulation. I'm not shitting on anyone's work or the project, as I think everyone is doing an incredible job, and am super appreciative of this whole project.

I just feel it's rather crazy to brush off 1-2 frame as negligable. Maybe to some people it is. But there are many people that are very hardcore and those frames matter A LOT. Just because it feels good to you, doesnt it mean it feels good to everyone else. Another person may be playing more complex, timing intensive games, or just playing the games at a much high skill level that requires more from a player.

This is why I bought things like a super NT. Accuracy, especially with input lag, while also giving me options like an emulator, and playing on a modern display. That's really where my hopes lie for MiSTer, in the future.

Sorry long post

Tl;dr. Input lag is a big deal. Let's not try to pretend it isn't.
I agree with most of your sentiments but there is already lag free solution for most of the cores on Mister and that's the analog output. If input delay means that much to you (and it should if you're considering using Mister as a hardware replacement) then you shouldn't use the HDMI anyway. I'm sure it can be improved upon but the bottom line is a modern TV will introduce display lag on top of whatever Mister does regardless.

My best modern display is TCL 55P607(13ms delay in Game Mode). Using authentic hardware + OSSC on this LCD feels laggier than the MiSTer on my CRT via YPbPr. Mind you this is before we get the ll cool joy which will reduce input delay even further. Try it for yourself and you'll feel the difference pretty easily.

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Re: Test Input lag: Megadrive vs MiSTer FPGA and also Megadrive vs RGB-Pi... Which one?

Postby cacophony » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:53 pm

BahnYuki wrote:I agree with most of your sentiments but there is already lag free solution for most of the cores on Mister and that's the analog output. If input delay means that much to you (and it should if you're considering using Mister as a hardware replacement) then you shouldn't use the HDMI anyway. I'm sure it can be improved upon but the bottom line is a modern TV will introduce display lag on top of whatever Mister does regardless.


nvm, misread your post initially

BahnYuki
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Re: Test Input lag: Megadrive vs MiSTer FPGA and also Megadrive vs RGB-Pi... Which one?

Postby BahnYuki » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:22 pm

I'm not suggesting anything really but merely stating mister has a close to lag free solution already. It may not be ideal for everyone but it exists and has placated my quest for a lag free solution quite well. I found my crts on Craigslist but I'm in the US and people basically give the tvs away.

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Re: Test Input lag: Megadrive vs MiSTer FPGA and also Megadrive vs RGB-Pi... Which one?

Postby sabreAZ » Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:09 am

Oh no, dont get me wrong. I have an io board, a crt, gaming monitors with VGA, and an ossc to bypass the hdmi. I think MiSTer is awesome. I want to support it as much as I can. I was just kinda bummed that Sorgelig seemed kinda dismissive towards the input lag even if its 1-2f, even though it does drastically affect certain genres, and especially at different skill levels. Definitely not slighting the amazing work he, and everyone else have been doing for this project. I have the upmost respect for everyone involved. I just feel input lag is super important to the integrity of accuracy. I understand it's probably a pain in the ass to implement across the board.

I hope at some point, it gets worked on, which would be amazing. But for now, I am very happy with analog out as an option.


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