Newbie questions

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sarcoptic
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Re: Newbie questions

Postby sarcoptic » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm

BigMac740p wrote:You don't really need the I/O Board if you don't need the dedicated analog output, but be sure to have a heatsink and an active cooling solution because the De10-Nano doesn't have any thermal management and can go very hot. The users buttons and LEDs can be directly hook on the GPIO if your are confident enough to tinker with electronics. As for the RTC clock, it is the least needed module since if you have network access the time and date is set automatically tru NTP at boot. To start, you don't even need a USB hub, a OTG-USB cable is enough for a single input device (Keyboard or Gamepad).


Thanks for the reply. I ended up grabbing a usb board, heatsink, and 32mb SDRAM. I can find a fan for the heatsink if I end up needing one. The heatsink itself comes with the 3M thermal adhesive. Now the wait for the parts begins. Definitely excited to have an end all hardware based emulator vs using raspberry pis.

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby BigMac740p » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:04 pm

sarcoptic wrote:
BigMac740p wrote:You don't really need the I/O Board if you don't need the dedicated analog output, but be sure to have a heatsink and an active cooling solution because the De10-Nano doesn't have any thermal management and can go very hot. The users buttons and LEDs can be directly hook on the GPIO if your are confident enough to tinker with electronics. As for the RTC clock, it is the least needed module since if you have network access the time and date is set automatically tru NTP at boot. To start, you don't even need a USB hub, a OTG-USB cable is enough for a single input device (Keyboard or Gamepad).


Thanks for the reply. I ended up grabbing a usb board, heatsink, and 32mb SDRAM. I can find a fan for the heatsink if I end up needing one. The heatsink itself comes with the 3M thermal adhesive. Now the wait for the parts begins. Definitely excited to have an end all hardware based emulator vs using raspberry pis.


To start with an heatsink and a OTG cable, you can already have good fun with most arcades core, TG16, Genesis and AO486 core without the SDRAM module.

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby Peredonov » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:45 pm

Is it possible to get video from IO board and digital audio from the HDMI output without audio-video sync problems? Since the HDMI output goes through the scaler, I'm wondering if the HDMI audio may lag a bit behind the analog video.

I'm contemplating this since audio from the IO board (analog or digital) is not as good as from the HDMI out, and some cores don't yet support direct video mode from HDMI, so this would be the way to get analog video with the best audio possible.

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby daty2k1 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:57 pm

I got a question about using a PC CRT. I made some research but I'm still not sure if it will work.

Let's say I plug my MiSTer to a VGA monitor and I enable the scan doubler in the ini, I should be able to see the menu right ?

Now if I were to launch a core, I would need to enable the option from the OSD since the ini option is not global ? But how can I do that if I can't see anything due to the output being in 15khz...

Am I missing something here ? Thanks

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby BigMac740p » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:00 pm

Peredonov wrote:Is it possible to get video from IO board and digital audio from the HDMI output without audio-video sync problems? Since the HDMI output goes through the scaler, I'm wondering if the HDMI audio may lag a bit behind the analog video.

I'm contemplating this since audio from the IO board (analog or digital) is not as good as from the HDMI out, and some cores don't yet support direct video mode from HDMI, so this would be the way to get analog video with the best audio possible.


In that case, your best avenue should be the SPDIF out on the IO board. Since it's feed from the digital OUT pin on the GPIO, you should be as good as the HDMI out.

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby Peredonov » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:55 pm

BigMac740p wrote:In that case, your best avenue should be the SPDIF out on the IO board. Since it's feed from the digital OUT pin on the GPIO, you should be as good as the HDMI out.


This could be incorrect info, but I recall reading a post stating that the SPDIF audio is still inferior to the HDMI audio because it goes through a different chip. That's why I'm contemplating this approach to only get audio out of the HDMI output, but if that will be linked to the scaled HDMI video then I imagine it may not sync perfectly to the analog video from the I/O board.

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby Chris23235 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:57 pm

BigMac740p wrote:The users buttons and LEDs can be directly hook on the GPIO if your are confident enough to tinker with electronics.


And even this is unnecessary, if you are willing to press the tiny buttons that are already present on the DE10-nano board.

Menu, Core Reset and Cold Boot can be executed by simply pressing the buttons on the board.

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby BigMac740p » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:21 pm

Peredonov wrote:
BigMac740p wrote:In that case, your best avenue should be the SPDIF out on the IO board. Since it's feed from the digital OUT pin on the GPIO, you should be as good as the HDMI out.


This could be incorrect info, but I recall reading a post stating that the SPDIF audio is still inferior to the HDMI audio because it goes through a different chip. That's why I'm contemplating this approach to only get audio out of the HDMI output, but if that will be linked to the scaled HDMI video then I imagine it may not sync perfectly to the analog video from the I/O board.


If you refer to the I/O board schematic, the SPDIF output is only a LED connected directly to Pin 9 of the FPGA GPIO without going tru any chips. This is why SPDIF output is so cheap to add to any electronics. Bit for bit the SPDIF output should be identical of what comes out of the HDMI.

Ref: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Hardwar ... rd_5.5.pdf

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby Peredonov » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:44 pm

BigMac740p wrote:
Peredonov wrote:If you refer to the I/O board schematic, the SPDIF output is only a LED connected directly to Pin 9 of the FPGA GPIO without going tru any chips. This is why SPDIF output is so cheap to add to any electronics. Bit for bit the SPDIF output should be identical of what comes out of the HDMI.

Ref: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Hardwar ... rd_5.5.pdf


Thanks for this info. I guess what I read was wrong or maybe I misunderstood. In terms of how I have my audio gear set up, it would still be more convenient for me to just extract audio out of the HDMI out, so I'd still like to know if I can expect audio delay relative to the analog video if I do that.

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby tenshin2002 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:46 pm

BigMac740p wrote:
sarcoptic wrote:Well as of this morning I am an official owner of the DE10-Nano. Now time to pick up some addons. I don't really need any other video output other than HDMI, so should I just skip the I/O board? Not really seeing any immediate benefit to it? As for the RTC clock...it looks like currently there is now console cores that require it so again going to skip that one as main purpose will be to emulate the gaming consoles that it can. So the plan is to grab a USB board (don't want to deal with an external hub) and 32mb SDRAM to start. This is really all I need for now right? Any input would be appreciated!


You don't really need the I/O Board if you don't need the dedicated analog output, but be sure to have a heatsink and an active cooling solution because the De10-Nano doesn't have any thermal management and can go very hot. The users buttons and LEDs can be directly hook on the GPIO if your are confident enough to tinker with electronics. As for the RTC clock, it is the least needed module since if you have network access the time and date is set automatically tru NTP at boot. To start, you don't even need a USB hub, a OTG-USB cable is enough for a single input device (Keyboard or Gamepad).


Everybody keeps saying that but according to Misteraddons tests a bare DE10-nano goes up to 59 degrees playing a pretty demanding SNES game in Yoshis Island. I have been running all kind of cores on my setup without heetsink and fan and havent had any issues. I mean 59 degrees is really not that much in my opinion.

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direct connection of the otg socket

Postby comfysofa » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:03 pm

As above - ive got a bare Mister unit...ive got an otg cable (micro usb) but its not powering the keyboard ....anything i need to do otherwise?

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby BigMac740p » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:32 pm

daty2k1 wrote:I got a question about using a PC CRT. I made some research but I'm still not sure if it will work.

Let's say I plug my MiSTer to a VGA monitor and I enable the scan doubler in the ini, I should be able to see the menu right ?

Now if I were to launch a core, I would need to enable the option from the OSD since the ini option is not global ? But how can I do that if I can't see anything due to the output being in 15khz...

Am I missing something here ? Thanks


The OSD interface is global of all cores, when you load a core, it's still the MiSter Menu who drive the OSD.

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby BigMac740p » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:38 pm

Peredonov wrote:
BigMac740p wrote:
Peredonov wrote:If you refer to the I/O board schematic, the SPDIF output is only a LED connected directly to Pin 9 of the FPGA GPIO without going tru any chips. This is why SPDIF output is so cheap to add to any electronics. Bit for bit the SPDIF output should be identical of what comes out of the HDMI.

Ref: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Hardwar ... rd_5.5.pdf


Thanks for this info. I guess what I read was wrong or maybe I misunderstood. In terms of how I have my audio gear set up, it would still be more convenient for me to just extract audio out of the HDMI out, so I'd still like to know if I can expect audio delay relative to the analog video if I do that.


I understand your needs for the sake of your set-up, I haven't use the analog output yet but for what I understand, the HDMI scaler add less than a frame lag and you could always force the scaler on the analog output to make sure the HDMI sound and analog video are in sync.

BTW, according to this thread viewtopic.php?f=117&t=37304 a cheap HDMI to VGA adapter gives you a better analog output than the IO board with the same capabilities (Lagless RGB/Component 15khz 240p).
Last edited by BigMac740p on Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby BigMac740p » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:00 pm

tenshin2002 wrote:
BigMac740p wrote:
sarcoptic wrote:Well as of this morning I am an official owner of the DE10-Nano. Now time to pick up some addons. I don't really need any other video output other than HDMI, so should I just skip the I/O board? Not really seeing any immediate benefit to it? As for the RTC clock...it looks like currently there is now console cores that require it so again going to skip that one as main purpose will be to emulate the gaming consoles that it can. So the plan is to grab a USB board (don't want to deal with an external hub) and 32mb SDRAM to start. This is really all I need for now right? Any input would be appreciated!


You don't really need the I/O Board if you don't need the dedicated analog output, but be sure to have a heatsink and an active cooling solution because the De10-Nano doesn't have any thermal management and can go very hot. The users buttons and LEDs can be directly hook on the GPIO if your are confident enough to tinker with electronics. As for the RTC clock, it is the least needed module since if you have network access the time and date is set automatically tru NTP at boot. To start, you don't even need a USB hub, a OTG-USB cable is enough for a single input device (Keyboard or Gamepad).


Everybody keeps saying that but according to Misteraddons tests a bare DE10-nano goes up to 59 degrees playing a pretty demanding SNES game in Yoshis Island. I have been running all kind of cores on my setup without heetsink and fan and havent had any issues. I mean 59 degrees is really not that much in my opinion.


You are probably right here, but what make me caution about it is the fact there is no temp sensor and throttling in this thing. And I've replace my heatsink once and the glue on my heatsink had melted only in one corner on the FPGA. It make me clearly realize it's not the FPGA who heat up, it is the HPS part of it who MiSTer keeps one ARM core at 100% usage all the time. I've since add a thermal pad between my heatsink and the FPGA

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Re: direct connection of the otg socket

Postby BigMac740p » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:40 pm

comfysofa wrote:As above - ive got a bare Mister unit...ive got an otg cable (micro usb) but its not powering the keyboard ....anything i need to do otherwise?


The De10-Nano USB ports have a very limited power budget, depending of your peripheral you could need a powered USB hub in between.

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby Peredonov » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:50 pm

BigMac740p wrote:BTW, according to this thread viewtopic.php?f=117&t=37304 a cheap HDMI to VGA adapter gives you a better analog output than the IO board with the same capabilities (Lagless RGB/Component 15khz 240p).


Yes, this question was only specifically for cores that don't support analog output via HDMI and thus require the IO board for it. Forcing the scaler on the IO board analog output would defeat the purpose, but like you said less than a frame of lag may mean it's not a significant issue to only extract audio from the HDMI output.

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby daty2k1 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:21 pm

BigMac740p wrote:The OSD interface is global of all cores, when you load a core, it's still the MiSter Menu who drive the OSD.


Oh I didn't know that thanks :cheers: I'll give it a try then.

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby BigMac740p » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:56 am

daty2k1 wrote:
BigMac740p wrote:The OSD interface is global of all cores, when you load a core, it's still the MiSter Menu who drive the OSD.


Oh I didn't know that thanks :cheers: I'll give it a try then.


Mister use the best of both the FPGA and the ARM embedded in the Cyclone, the Linux/ARM part do the Menu, core loading and IO while the FPGA is dedicated to the hardware simulation part.

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Re: direct connection of the otg socket

Postby comfysofa » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:30 am

BigMac740p wrote:
comfysofa wrote:As above - ive got a bare Mister unit...ive got an otg cable (micro usb) but its not powering the keyboard ....anything i need to do otherwise?


The De10-Nano USB ports have a very limited power budget, depending of your peripheral you could need a powered USB hub in between.


Wow - so it cant even power a keyboard on its own??

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Re: direct connection of the otg socket

Postby tenshin2002 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:16 am

comfysofa wrote:
BigMac740p wrote:
comfysofa wrote:As above - ive got a bare Mister unit...ive got an otg cable (micro usb) but its not powering the keyboard ....anything i need to do otherwise?


The De10-Nano USB ports have a very limited power budget, depending of your peripheral you could need a powered USB hub in between.


Wow - so it cant even power a keyboard on its own??

Yes it can, the point is that if you are going to plug in several different devices a powered USB hub is preferrable to eliminate any issues. THis is not a limitation of MiSTer, this is applicable to all units powering devices over OTG.

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby sarcoptic » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:06 pm

tenshin2002 wrote:
comfysofa wrote:
BigMac740p wrote:
The De10-Nano USB ports have a very limited power budget, depending of your peripheral you could need a powered USB hub in between.


Wow - so it cant even power a keyboard on its own??

Yes it can, the point is that if you are going to plug in several different devices a powered USB hub is preferrable to eliminate any issues. THis is not a limitation of MiSTer, this is applicable to all units powering devices over OTG.


This is the exact reason why I went ahead and got a USB board. Multiple full size ports, 4 player games is a necessity for my needs, no external hub dangling with another separate power brick plugged in. Plus overall aesthetics with the mounting system underneath.

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby tenshin2002 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:58 pm

sarcoptic wrote:
tenshin2002 wrote:
comfysofa wrote:
Wow - so it cant even power a keyboard on its own??

Yes it can, the point is that if you are going to plug in several different devices a powered USB hub is preferrable to eliminate any issues. THis is not a limitation of MiSTer, this is applicable to all units powering devices over OTG.


This is the exact reason why I went ahead and got a USB board. Multiple full size ports, 4 player games is a necessity for my needs, no external hub dangling with another separate power brick plugged in. Plus overall aesthetics with the mounting system underneath.

Same

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Re: direct connection of the otg socket

Postby jca » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:08 pm

comfysofa wrote:Wow - so it cant even power a keyboard on its own??

On my setting I am using an unpowered hub to which I connected 2 USB wireless dongles for keyboard and mouse plus a game controller without any problem.

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby BigMac740p » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:27 pm

sarcoptic wrote:
tenshin2002 wrote:
comfysofa wrote:
Wow - so it cant even power a keyboard on its own??

Yes it can, the point is that if you are going to plug in several different devices a powered USB hub is preferrable to eliminate any issues. THis is not a limitation of MiSTer, this is applicable to all units powering devices over OTG.


This is the exact reason why I went ahead and got a USB board. Multiple full size ports, 4 player games is a necessity for my needs, no external hub dangling with another separate power brick plugged in. Plus overall aesthetics with the mounting system underneath.


I'm using a cheap travel USB hub naked that I'm powering from the De10-Nano main power with a Y cable. I'm waiting for the BlisSter add ons ;-)

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Re: Newbie questions

Postby comfysofa » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:52 pm

Sorry - just to clarify im not being tight or anything like that....ive got a full blown one at home and (without telling the story) ive got a second one at work to mess around with....just didnt want to throw the kitchen sink at it but, it sounds like the usb board and a bit of memory would need to be added...and, yes, all i wanted was the keyboard but it wont power it...just so were clear this is the micro usb socket is the OTG?


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