It's no more a MiSTery

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby alexh » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:05 am

ppera is an active coder. Report it and I'm sure he'll fix it if it is not too ingrained in the original code.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:39 pm

jamesrc wrote:Huh. That is interesting. Is it just random chance that it worked for me on the old core?


The old core never had a "real" IKBD implemented but only something that somewhat behaved like the IKBD. This had the disadvantage that many rather sophisticated IKBD tricks did not work properly. But it had the advantage that e.g. the joystick and mouse signals were totally unrelated. It sent mouse events for mouse movements and joystick events for joystick movements. But the mouse would not have any effect on the joystick.

Now with the real IKBD in mistery things are different. Still the mouse and joysticks on the MIST are physically separate things (unlike on a real ST) but right before those signals are fed into the IKBD they are mixed based on mouse and joystick activity to implement some kind of "automatic mouse/joystick switcher" which i had back in the days.
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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby slingshot » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:22 pm

Just added a patch to ikbd which returns the mouse pins to a neutral state when it's not moving. But still curious what happens on real hardware.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:09 pm

On real hardware the mouse likely blocks an input at any given time. That's why you cannot just wire a mouse and a joyatick in parallel. The joystick will release all signals when not being used but the mouse does not. I built a mouse/joystick switch for my st 25 years ago using active parts for that reason.
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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby jamesrc » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:17 am

slingshot wrote:Just added a patch to ikbd which returns the mouse pins to a neutral state when it's not moving. But still curious what happens on real hardware.


Thanks! I'll give it a go.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby slingshot » Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:30 am

jamesrc wrote:
slingshot wrote:Just added a patch to ikbd which returns the mouse pins to a neutral state when it's not moving. But still curious what happens on real hardware.


Thanks! I'll give it a go.

Didn't pushed into the main repo, and probably I won't. It's not the core's job to workaround buggy software. Btw, that game is available in several other, non-buggy versions.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:15 pm

slingshot wrote:Didn't pushed into the main repo, and probably I won't. It's not the core's job to workaround buggy software. Btw, that game is available in several other, non-buggy versions.


Indeed. Especially the mistery core is meant to be exact. Triggering existing bugs in software is actually what we want. If it's broken on a real ST then it's meant to be broken on mistery as well.
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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby slingshot » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:30 pm

MasterOfGizmo wrote:Indeed. Especially the mistery core is meant to be exact. Triggering existing bugs in software is actually what we want. If it's broken on a real ST then it's meant to be broken on mistery as well.

Well, I've just speculated it is broken. Would be good if somebody could test.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby jamesrc » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:09 am

slingshot wrote:
MasterOfGizmo wrote:Indeed. Especially the mistery core is meant to be exact. Triggering existing bugs in software is actually what we want. If it's broken on a real ST then it's meant to be broken on mistery as well.

Well, I've just speculated it is broken. Would be good if somebody could test.


I wonder if it would be worth posting requests like this out in the main ST/STe part of the forum as there are likely quite a lot of users there with actual hardware who never take a look at the MiST section.

And I agree with both of you -- if it's broken on original hardware then it should be broken on the MiST.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby ijor » Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:40 am

slingshot wrote:As the mouse is a rotary encoder, it constantly turns on-off it's outputs as you move it in a Gray-coded scheme. Now it's possible when you stop it, it's left in a postion where some pins are high, some are low. No problem.
...
I really wonder what state an original Atari mouse leaves its outputs when it's not moving.


The original ST mouse is very rudimentary, almost purely mechanical. There is no doubt that it might leave DX/DY signals asserted when stopped. Conceivable a "smart" modern PS2/USB mouse adapter might behave differently.

Well, I've just speculated it is broken. Would be good if somebody could test.


I didn't test it. But If indeed it depends on no joystick signal being asserted, then it is definitely a bug. And as Alex said, Ppera can probably fix it.

I would expect you should get the same behavior under a not so old version of Steem because it has a full IKBD emulator, Hatari doesn't.
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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby jamesrc » Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am

ijor wrote:But If indeed it depends on no joystick signal being asserted, then it is definitely a bug. And as Alex said, Ppera can probably fix it.


Yep -- I haven't reported it to Ppera yet which may seem lazy but that's because this is less about my being able to play Hard n Heavy and really about noticing the behaviour and reporting it in case of a core bug. If it's similarly broken on real hardware or Steem then MiSTery is working correctly and I feel this is resolved. Though I will get around to reporting the broken game. :)

I would expect you should get the same behavior under a not so old version of Steem because it has a full IKBD emulator, Hatari doesn't.


When I'm done testing everything on PoV 19 then I'll make sure my Steem SSE is completely up-to-date and make an HD image to test this out.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby jamesrc » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:07 am

Finally finished up with PoV 19. The ATG Demo has the exact same bitplane weirdness as previously noted in the S.U.C.C.E.S.S. demo. Right down to the bottom merely flickering in Hatari but the Demo otherwise being okay there.

Come to think about it, it's possible the other demos on this disk are similarly affected. I conducted the rest of my testing in STFM mode.

As the S.U.C.C.E.S.S demo matched the Hatari behaviour on real hardware, I'd expect the same here.

I'll get on with the Hard 'n' Heavy testing in Steem when I return to town.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby seastalker » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:12 pm

I'm still learning about the FX core and Mistery differences and history to see what is available and which to use. In another thread I may have mixed up which core was cycle accurate.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby slingshot » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:16 am

jamesrc wrote:
I'll get on with the Hard 'n' Heavy testing in Steem when I return to town.

Even the ikbd controller is perfectly emulated in Steem, the result here depends on the virtual mouse plugged into the port. As Ijor wrote, It might be possible that even on real hardware there are no problems when a PS2-Atari mouse adapter is used. I don't think too many original Atari mouse left in a working state. Maybe a better test would be to configure a joystick on the mouse port, and hold the joystick in one direction while starting the game.
It would be possible to write a test program to this case, just need a minimal Atari ST programming skill (which I don't have).

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby Chris23235 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:28 pm

I just tried Wolf3d, but it seems to hang when the first level loads (Get Psyched screen). Did anyone got it work?

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby ijor » Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:21 pm

slingshot wrote:Even the ikbd controller is perfectly emulated in Steem, the result here depends on the virtual mouse plugged into the port. As Ijor wrote, It might be possible that even on real hardware there are no problems when a PS2-Atari mouse adapter is used. I don't think too many original Atari mouse left in a working state. Maybe a better test would be to configure a joystick on the mouse port, and hold the joystick in one direction while starting the game.

It would be possible to write a test program to this case, just need a minimal Atari ST programming skill (which I don't have).


I don't see why you would need a test program for this purpose. I'm not sure I understand what you want to test.

If any of the switches of either joystick is closed, either because you are manually activating a joystick, or either because of the mouse rotary encoder; then enabling joystick even reporting (IKBD command $14) would provoke IKBD to send a joystick package immediately. Is that what you are wondering?
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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby slingshot » Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:53 pm

ijor wrote:If any of the switches of either joystick is closed, either because you are manually activating a joystick, or either because of the mouse rotary encoder; then enabling joystick even reporting (IKBD command $14) would provoke IKBD to send a joystick package immediately. Is that what you are wondering?

Yes, exactly. So this is the normal behaviour, no need a test program.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby slingshot » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:03 pm

Chris23235 wrote:I just tried Wolf3d, but it seems to hang when the first level loads (Get Psyched screen). Did anyone got it work?

Looks like it's problematic on original HW, too:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=30848

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby fury23 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:31 pm

I occasionally play Shufflepuck Cafe from http://www.8bitchip.info/atari/SCRSH/shufps.html.

I noticed big difference in loading time. In latest Mist core it loads in 25s, but in any MiSTery core it loads in about 2m30s.

Cores are on the same SD card, TOS1.02, chipset ST, blitter off, same setup, same game.

Did anybody had similar issue? :(

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby slingshot » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:34 pm

fury23 wrote:I noticed big difference in loading time. In latest Mist core it loads in 25s, but in any MiSTery core it loads in about 2m30s.

Is it slow on hard disk?

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby fury23 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:20 pm

slingshot wrote:
fury23 wrote:I noticed big difference in loading time. In latest Mist core it loads in 25s, but in any MiSTery core it loads in about 2m30s.

Is it slow on hard disk?


I investigated little more. I put it on HDD image for test and it reads fast. I never used HDD fixed games on HDD, instead I copied files to empty Atari floppy image, for each game new floppy image. If game fits on standard floppy image i put it on it, if was little bigger i put it on 10 sectors/track floppy image, but if game was bigger than 1MB (like Shufflepuck) i put it on PC 1.44 floppy image. That is the difference, standard floppy images works flawlesly. I don't know, maybe this is normal behavior on real machine.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby slingshot » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:15 am

solskogen wrote:Systematic Error (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=12305) does not run on the Mistery core (nor does it work on the MiST core)

This also has a problem (bug) in the Microwire handling (writes to mask register during transfer). Fixed now.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby Chris23235 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:34 pm

slingshot wrote:
Chris23235 wrote:I just tried Wolf3d, but it seems to hang when the first level loads (Get Psyched screen). Did anyone got it work?

Looks like it's problematic on original HW, too:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=30848


Just saw your answer now, thanks for the info, didn't knew, that the port was never finished. But on the other hand, it means crossing one more item from the list of programs that don't run on MiSTery. :) The core is really impressive.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby slingshot » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:44 am

Can somebody compare the sync-explorer prg posted here:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=29578&start=75#p391783
between the core and real HW? Preferably both with ST and STe.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby solskogen » Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:33 pm

slingshot wrote:
solskogen wrote:Systematic Error (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=12305) does not run on the Mistery core (nor does it work on the MiST core)

This also has a problem (bug) in the Microwire handling (writes to mask register during transfer). Fixed now.


Confirmed. It works :-) Thanks!


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