Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Somewhere to chat about MIDI music creation, sequencers and related hardware

Moderators: Mug UK, lotek_style, Moderator Team

siriushardware
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:55 pm
Location: UK

Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Postby siriushardware » Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:57 pm

I've been using Cubase 2 + Atari ST for years with old instruments which don't have BANKS of voices, so the simple program change range of 1 to 128 offered in the 'part box' which comes up when you double left click on a part has never been a problem.

Just recently, however, I was loaned a Yamaha PSRE-303 (Also known as YPT-300 in some markets?) and it has well over 128 voices, including the drum kits which appear to be in alternative banks, and therefore unreachable just by selecting a simple program change value between 1-128.

Is there something in Cubase 2 that I've missed, or is there a way to force a bank select at the start of a part so that any subsequent program changes select a sound in the selected bank, not the default bank?

Dal
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4081
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:31 am
Location: Cheltenham, UK
Contact:

Re: Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Postby Dal » Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:16 pm

The proper way is to check the midi implementation for the keyboard and then send the correct command that way.

The simple method is to hit record in cubase and switch to the sound you want. The bank switch command along with the patch change will be captured in the midi track.

At least that's what I've always done.
TT030: 4MB/16MB + Crazy Dots, Mega"SST" 12, MegaSTE, STE: Desktopper case, IDE interface, UltraSatan (8GB + 512Mb) + HXC floppy emulator. Plus some STE's/STFM's

Paolo
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 456
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:43 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Postby Paolo » Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:12 pm

I just had a quick read at the manual, but there is no complete MIDI SYSEX list, so Dal is right, the easiest way is to "record" the program change.

Otherwise you could read the SYSEX data with a program (I can't remember the names of the programs) and note them down for future use.

siriushardware
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:55 pm
Location: UK

Re: Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Postby siriushardware » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:01 pm

My preferred method of working is not to embed midi program changes in the track, so I can jog through all the program change values (1-128) while the part, or a marked loop of the part, is playing so that I can find the voice that sounds best. (You know how it is - the voice with the most ideal sounding name is not always the one that actually sounds best for the track).

If I embed the program change as recorded info at the start of the part, the voice will keep reverting back to the original embedded value.

What it seems I may have to do is to embed the control change (only) in the beginning of the part to do the bank select only - that would leave me free to alter the actual voice within that bank (1 to 128) in the part parameters box

So let's see... Control Change on channel 16 is Binary 10111111 or Hex BF or Decimal 191 (Since channel numbers 1-16 are represented by 0000-1111 or 0-F).

Looking at the front panel voice numbers and comparing them with the corresponding program change numbers it seems there is no logical relationship between the two, so taking as an example the front panel voice number #109, 'Standard Kit 1' reads as follows in the voice list:

Voice# 109
Voice name: 'Standard Kit 1'
Bank select: MSB (0-127) = 127
Bank select: LSB (0-127) = 0
Program change: 1

From this I would say that if I want to send the bank switch only, I send

(in decimal) 191 127 0.

After that, any subsequent program changes sent on channel 16 should select voices (in this case, alternative drum kits) within the already selected drum kit voice bank. Do I have that right so far?

Edit: Paolo, yes, the midi info in the manual is a little bit sparse - I have seen better even in manuals for other Yamaha models.

I have an old book 'Advanced Midi User's Guide' (R.A.Penfold) which states that the upper half (upper nibble) for a 'Control Change' command byte is 1011, or B. The low four bits is the channel number, so for 'control change on channel 16' the complete command byte would be BF, or 191 decimal.

Control change commands are then followed by two 7-bit (MSB and LSB) values which add up to a 14-bit value which can mean whatever the keyboard manufacturer has decided they will mean. In this case, data 127 followed by data 0 appears to mean 'select the drum kit voice bank'.

This doesn't square with the '0,32' values given in the MIDI implementation chart on pages 76-77 of the manual.

I think you are both right, to get further I am going to have to capture a 'program change to voice 109' and then remove the program change, but keep the 'bank select' part of what I have captured.

Paolo
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 456
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:43 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Postby Paolo » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:39 pm

I would point you to MIDI view. It's one of the programs I wrote about in my earlier post. this is the link to the TAMW page (RIP Tim!) where you'll find an article and the program.
http://tamw.atari-users.net/midiview.htm

This should give you a better view about the implementation of your keyboard

siriushardware
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:55 pm
Location: UK

Re: Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Postby siriushardware » Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:26 am

It wasn't quite as simple as I thought: A typical captured 'bank switch' sequence from this keyboard is (in hex)

B0 00 7F (Send upper 7 bits (MSB) of control change, channel 1. (CH2 would be B1, CH3 would be B2, CH4 would be B3, etc)
B0 20 00 (Send lower 7 bits (LSB) of control change, channel 1)

With the use of 'running status' it can be sent as one byte less: B0 00 7F 20 00, but that is less human-readable (not that the keyboard cares!).

Looking in the E303 manual, voice #109, 'Standard Drum kit' is in the bank selected with Control change with MSB value 7F (=127) and LSB value 0, as above.

This is likely to be a common way of doing voice bank switching across a wide range of Yamaha instruments at least, and possibly others as well.

Miguel
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:59 pm

Re: Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Postby Miguel » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:01 pm

If I were using that version of Cubase I would probably try using the MIDI manager to switch banks while selecting programs 1-128 in the usual manner.....as in set up a button or whatever to call up the first patch in each bank and then just dial in the appropriate program change number.

Sonus
Retro freak
Retro freak
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:31 pm

Re: Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Postby Sonus » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:05 am

My workaround: insert bank select MSB-LSB in a part preceding the sequence data.

Image
Image

siriushardware
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:55 pm
Location: UK

Re: Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Postby siriushardware » Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:59 pm

Hello again Sonus :-)

(I posed the same question over in the Yamaha forums, where Sonus responded with a nice graphical illustration as above).

This would be my preferred solution as well, to create a short 'part' with the bank switch control manually programmed into it and then drop it on the track just ahead of the part which needs to have access to that bank. I just wasn't clear about exactly what should go into the control change 'part' because the manual is a little bit vague about it. Thanks to input from you and 'SeaGtGruff' over in the Yamaha forums, I do now know.

I was hoping to use my normally reliable 'MCA' Cubase 2 running under Hatari for all of this, but unfortunately I have found that when I go into the Cubase 2 grid editor an 'internal error' message box usually pops up, and pops back up again whenever I close it, so grid editing is basically broken for me under Hatari. (That's even under Hatari 1.9.0, where the MIDI implementation has greatly improved from previous versions). I don't actually think this is a MIDI issue, more likely the software 'failing' a dongle check on entry to the grid editor because the timing of the emulated ST is somehow not quite the same as a real ST. It would be interesting to hear if anyone with a proper copy of Cubase 2 is able run run it under Hatari now (Since 1.9.0).

Luckily, I do still have a real STFM to run it on - I've never had any problems with the MCA version of Cubase running on real ST hardware.

Sonus
Retro freak
Retro freak
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:31 pm

Re: Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Postby Sonus » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:38 am

You're welcome! Here's the result if bank MSB-LSB = 0, Steem Engine v3.2 to MIDI-OX.

Image

Miguel
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:59 pm

Re: Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Postby Miguel » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:09 pm

You should be able to use the MIDI Manger to create a Mixer Map with bank buttons or whatever.....ideally you want to use a single SysEx string for each button etc but you can link one object such as a button assigned to say control 32 to another object in the same group assigned to a program change for example.....the trick here is to limit the values of the object and thus the variable, so with control 32 you might set the minimum and maximum values both to 4 (instead of 1-128) thus making the button momentary so it calls up bank 4 (you can of course name the switches for the appropriate bank) you should also limit the program change paired with it too, however I don't think you can set the same values as with control 32 or whatever meaning that each time you switch banks it might jump to program 2 instead of 1 but the idea is to use a different object to select programs with the full 1-128 range.....if you use two linked objects in such a way the trick is to group each pair together and I would recommend making the program change object a title rather than a button etc as it's only really there to complete the message.......all this is of course assuming that you can actually use the MIDI manager.

Miguel
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:59 pm

Re: Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Postby Miguel » Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:33 pm

Correction...you can only select the same values when the object is a switch meaning that you can actually set up a program change switch with both a minimum and maximum value of 0 so that bank changes will land on the first patch when selected by the group's master object (that's the one used to switch banks) there should of course be an additional independent object used to select programs/patches not tied to the bank switching group.....I tested it out by switching banks and patches on my Yamaha RM1X and I think using a mixer map is quite an elegant solution.....that is if you don't have the same problem you are experiencing with the grid editor.

User avatar
yerzmyey
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:23 pm
Contact:

Re: Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Postby yerzmyey » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:48 pm

Hi guys.

Not to make another thread - I have a similar problem.
I didn't have to use those before but now I have a CASIO CT-670 keyz and it's instruments are based on banks.
Grrrrrrrrrrr.......

So I cannot access anything above 99 (!!!) as the machine wants to change bank supposedly.

I found an instruction on the Net. From my point of view the guy made some mistake as there's no any "N" but I assumed it wasa typo, so maybe he meant the "C".

Anyway, here it goes:

"
Well, you may need to use a SYSTEM EXCLUSIVE command. This is applicable
    only via a sequencer or patch librarian. The command for the Casio CT-670 keyboard
    is the following:
F0 44 03 00 C 51 X F7 -- where N is 70 for channel 1, 71 for channel 2, and so forth,
and where X is 20 for bank 0, 21 for bank 1.
"

So I entered the GRID.
And I put such a string there:
F0 44 03 00 73 51 21 F7

I gather from this, the 73 is for the 3rd channel of MIDI.
21 is for the 1st bank of instruments. I put there also 20 and 23 just in case - the sound doesn't change at all.

Can You help me somehow?

Here is the photo of monitor. As You can see, Cubase recognized the CASIO in the string of data.
I would be grateful for help.

Image

Kind regards,
Yerz
http://ym-digital.i-demo.pl/ ATARI 520ST music-band
http://ay-riders.speccy.cz/ ZX Spectrum music-band
http://yerzmyey.i-demo.pl/ ZX/A500/A1200/ST/XL music
https://soundcloud.com/yerzmyey ZX/A500/A1200/ST/STE/F030 music
http://z80.i-demo.pl/ MP3 archive of Z80 chip music

siriushardware
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:55 pm
Location: UK

Re: Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Postby siriushardware » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:43 pm

Silly question, but do you have things like program change, control change and System Exclusive enabled both in the Keyboard MIDI settings and in Cubase? It is quite normal for System Exclusive to default to DISABLED on synths and keyboards, so that may be why your Casio is not responding to an otherwise legitimate system exclusive message.

I take it that by changing the preset number associated with the part/track you can see the presets being changed through the range available in the currently selected bank on the keyboard, but you can't get Cubase to send a 'bank change' command to allow you into one of the several other banks of voices which the keyboard has?

User avatar
charles
10 GOTO 10
10 GOTO 10
Posts: 2061
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:11 am
Location: ont. Canada
Contact:

Re: Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Postby charles » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:52 am

if you want to use the little box to just enter a number for the bank change , its sometimes requires a larger number
something within my roland mc303 groovebox years ago tipped me off on the format of this numbers structure
and I just checked the manual.....roland devices(some)require steps of 128 ...but the range of the bank setting can vary from 0 to 16384
correct me if im wrong
atari is my lifestyle,not a hobby.
HOLD ON ! ! !,
Im printing unreadable characters ...!

User avatar
yerzmyey
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:23 pm
Contact:

Re: Bank switching in Cubase 2?

Postby yerzmyey » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:30 pm

Thanks guys, it worked finally.
Also, there appeared the SysEx was set "ON", in the toy-keyz.
Another thing is, I'm not very good in the MIDI, so I had to figure out by myself, that first one has to enter SysEx, and then - ProgramChange.
Ah well.
It's not like the effort is with it, it will be some crap anyway. BUT - I will remember about it also in the future.
Thanks again,
Y
http://ym-digital.i-demo.pl/ ATARI 520ST music-band
http://ay-riders.speccy.cz/ ZX Spectrum music-band
http://yerzmyey.i-demo.pl/ ZX/A500/A1200/ST/XL music
https://soundcloud.com/yerzmyey ZX/A500/A1200/ST/STE/F030 music
http://z80.i-demo.pl/ MP3 archive of Z80 chip music


Return to “MIDI Software and Hardware”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests