MicroCosmos sad news...

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Askja
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MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby Askja » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:15 am

Hi all,
oh, I am sad, very disapointed.
Some years ago I bought the Ultra Satan disk but I never really used it because of a bug due to my TOS version it seems...
I can read files from the SD card, but if one time I try to write on it, it destroy all the datas of the SD card :(

Then, last month, I decided to order the microCosmos, I thought the problem was solved but it is exactly same :cry:
I can read files, but if I write, all the SD is corrupted.
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby simonsunnyboy » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:20 am

This is probably a case of the faulty DMA access. Try the devices on different ST machines, STF preferrable.
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby dhedberg » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:24 am

Askja wrote:Hi all,
oh, I am sad, very disapointed.
Some years ago I bought the Ultra Satan disk but I never really used it because of a bug due to my TOS version it seems...
I can read files from the SD card, but if one time I try to write on it, it destroy all the datas of the SD card :(

Then, last month, I decided to order the microCosmos, I thought the problem was solved but it is exactly same :cry:
I can read files, but if I write, all the SD is corrupted.

Sad to hear about your experience but I doubt you can blame the UltaSatan or the MicoCosmos for the problems. You need to fix your computer as the problem is most likely DMA related.
You can probably sell one of the devices pretty easily if you don't have any use for both of them.
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby Askja » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:28 am

No no, I don't blame anybody, the Jookie work is admirable!
It is only bad luck for me :)
The best solution should to buy another STE, probably I will do it one day.
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby kodak80 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:30 am

Askja wrote:Hi all,
oh, I am sad, very disapointed.
Some years ago I bought the Ultra Satan disk but I never really used it because of a bug due to my TOS version it seems...
I can read files from the SD card, but if one time I try to write on it, it destroy all the datas of the SD card :(

Then, last month, I decided to order the microCosmos, I thought the problem was solved but it is exactly same :cry:
I can read files, but if I write, all the SD is corrupted.


I had the same issue with a SatanDisk on my STE and I replaced the CPU with an MC68HC000FN8 processor and my issue with writing causing corruption is resolved. The HC processor is lower power and this stops the DMA bus issues. For $10 this was a really cheap and easy fix. Worth a try if you have an STE.
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby Askja » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:34 am

kodak80 wrote:I had the same issue with a SatanDisk on my STE and I replaced the CPU with an MC68HC000FN8 processor and my issue with writing causing corruption is resolved. The HC processor is lower power and this stops the DMA bus issues. For $10 this was a really cheap and easy fix. Worth a try if you have an STE.


Oh! Interesting!
Can you explain to me in provate message how to please, if you have free time, nothing hurry. :cheers:
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby kodak80 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:47 am

PM sent but here is the information as well:

Exxos has this covered on his website:
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/DMAfix/#LATEST
Look for the update on April 13, 2017 as it covers why this fixes the DMA corruption issue.

Basically the HC version of the 68000 processor is a low power CPU and puts less power into the DMA bus and stops the noise on the bus which is what causes the corruption occuring. I purchased the CPU from an eBay seller in China and simply swapped the CPU. Once swapped, I have tried copying a larger volume of files to the HDD and no corruption. I used to get corruption after a few file copies but now I have not had any corruption on my SatanDisk.

I supposedly had the DMA chip that is faulty but swapping the CPU was easier as it is socketed. My DMA chip was soldered to the motherboard and my soldering skills are poor. Here is a link to the CPU I purchased that fixed my issue:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/272638312113
Worth a try for the price of the CPU. You just need to be careful extracting the old CPU from the socket.
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby Askja » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:57 pm

Thanks a lot!! :)
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby leech » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:16 pm

Holy crap! I should do this for my STe as well. Though I'm not sure if it'll help my issue (no sound output). But that does seem to be an easier fix than replacing the DMA chip which is hard to find and harder to solder.
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby Jeff_HxC2001 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:12 pm

unfortunately using HCMOS CPU is causing others issues. Some demos doesn't work properly with HCMOS 68000...

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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby dhedberg » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:06 pm

Jeff_HxC2001 wrote:unfortunately using HCMOS CPU is causing others issues. Some demos doesn't work properly with HCMOS 68000...

Ouch, that'd be a deal breaker. What demos?
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby troed » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:04 am

Jeff_HxC2001 wrote:unfortunately using HCMOS CPU is causing others issues. Some demos doesn't work properly with HCMOS 68000...


This sounds incredibly strange. The GLUE and MMU dictates the timings, as far as I know, not the CPU.

/Troed

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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:12 am

troed wrote:This sounds incredibly strange. The GLUE and MMU dictates the timings, as far as I know, not the CPU.
/Troed

But giving commands, parameters to DMA chip, and reading it's status goes directly with CPU.
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby troed » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:19 am

AtariZoll wrote:
troed wrote:This sounds incredibly strange. The GLUE and MMU dictates the timings, as far as I know, not the CPU.
/Troed

But giving commands, parameters to DMA chip, and reading it's status goes directly with CPU.


If the timings are the same (dictated by MMU bus arbitration) I don't see how that would change with an HC.

/Troed

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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:26 am

CPU dictates exact timings of data on data bus. + it generates /AS signal. If there is some bigger diff. in compare to NMOS v. it may cause problems.
Internal delays are likely smaller in CMOS version. Bus arbitration has nothing with internal delays - until it fails not too because of them .
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby troed » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:29 am

AtariZoll wrote:CPU dictates exact timings of data on data bus. + it generates /AS signal. If there is some bigger diff. in compare to NMOS v. it may cause problems.
Internal delays are likely smaller in CMOS version. Bus arbitration has nothing with internal delays - until it fails not too because of them .


Not sure how this would affect any demos (what Jeff wrote). The only thing that comes to mind would be the "loop a few nops" after setting DMA registers before writing values when doing direct DMA routines. In some systems you can get away with not waiting, but the documentation from Atari has always been to have them.

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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby ijor » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:19 pm

Timing depends, of course, on the CPU as well. I don't have personal experience with the CMOS part, but the 68HC is supposed to be fully compatible, even on undocumented features.

The asynchronous delays in the same cycle, such as tCO, are probable smaller (note that doesn't mean less cycles). Conceivable, and just conceivable, this might have some relevance. But if so, then this shouldn't be specific to the CMOS CPU. Some NMOS variations are faster than others. For instance, the MegaSTe CPU.

May be Jeff was thinking on the 68SEC000, the CPU used in the Minimig, I understand. This is a different beast and not 100% compatible.

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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby AtariZoll » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:19 pm

Anyone know is there something special, incompatible in MC68010FN12 ? I can't find any concrete datasheet for that version.
I tried it in Mega STE, what supports 68010, but machine is total dead with it. It's manufactured in 2000.
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby Greenious » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:34 pm

AtariZoll wrote:Anyone know is there something special, incompatible in MC68010FN12 ? I can't find any concrete datasheet for that version.
I tried it in Mega STE, what supports 68010, but machine is total dead with it. It's manufactured in 2000.


Yes, move from sr is a privileged instruction I believe, aswell as a different exception stack frame.

You need a patched TOS, and I think EMUTOS handles it aswell.

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_68010 lists all differences.
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby Greenious » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:38 pm

ijor wrote:Timing depends, of course, on the CPU as well. I don't have personal experience with the CMOS part, but the 68HC is supposed to be fully compatible, even on undocumented features.

The asynchronous delays in the same cycle, such as tCO, are probable smaller (note that doesn't mean less cycles). Conceivable, and just conceivable, this might have some relevance. But if so, then this shouldn't be specific to the CMOS CPU. Some NMOS variations are faster than others. For instance, the MegaSTe CPU.

May be Jeff was thinking on the 68SEC000, the CPU used in the Minimig, I understand. This is a different beast and not 100% compatible.


68HC should be compatible, I believe HBS640 T28/36 used it, aswell as any other accelerator going beyong 16MHz, and this is the first time I've heard it's not 100% compatible.

I'm also inclined to think Jeff is thining of the SEC version.
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby AtariZoll » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:36 pm

Greenious wrote:
AtariZoll wrote:Anyone know is there something special, incompatible in MC68010FN12 ? I can't find any concrete datasheet for that version.
I tried it in Mega STE, what supports 68010, but machine is total dead with it. It's manufactured in 2000.

Yes, move from sr is a privileged instruction I believe, aswell as a different exception stack frame.
You need a patched TOS, and I think EMUTOS handles it aswell.
Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_68010 lists all differences.

You don't read carefully what is written. Mega STE TOS (2.06) supports 68010. As clearly stays in my post. The question was about HW compatibility of MC68010FN12 . Not MC68010 .
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby Cyprian » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:11 pm

1.62 also supports 68010
Jaugar / TT030 / Mega STe / 800 XL / 1040 STe / Falcon030 / 65 XE / 520 STm / SM124 / SC1435
SDrive / PAK68/3 / CosmosEx / SatanDisk / UltraSatan / USB Floppy Drive Emulator / Eiffel / SIO2PC / Crazy Dots / PAM Net
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby Greenious » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:03 pm

AtariZoll wrote:
Greenious wrote:
AtariZoll wrote:Anyone know is there something special, incompatible in MC68010FN12 ? I can't find any concrete datasheet for that version.
I tried it in Mega STE, what supports 68010, but machine is total dead with it. It's manufactured in 2000.

Yes, move from sr is a privileged instruction I believe, aswell as a different exception stack frame.
You need a patched TOS, and I think EMUTOS handles it aswell.
Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_68010 lists all differences.

You don't read carefully what is written. Mega STE TOS (2.06) supports 68010. As clearly stays in my post. The question was about HW compatibility of MC68010FN12 . Not MC68010 .


Yes, you are correct, I read through this too fast I think. :oops:

Well, tbh, I'd say your 68010 seems broken, unless there is an issue with the socket. They are pin compatible. Have you got another machine to test it with?
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:41 am

Greenious wrote:...
Well, tbh, I'd say your 68010 seems broken, unless there is an issue with the socket. They are pin compatible. Have you got another machine to test it with?

CPU is brandnew. Mega STE is working perfectly with original CPU, socket is fine.

My theory is that it could be known higher speed CMOS - older NMOS, or older, slower CMOS interfacing problem. Since one CPU has lot of pins, and is much more complex than some IDE adapter, for instance, it simply results in working not at all.
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Re: MicroCosmos sad news...

Postby Jeff_HxC2001 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:36 am

troed wrote:
Jeff_HxC2001 wrote:unfortunately using HCMOS CPU is causing others issues. Some demos doesn't work properly with HCMOS 68000...


This sounds incredibly strange. The GLUE and MMU dictates the timings, as far as I know, not the CPU.

/Troed


Not so much. This was interesting but i wasn't surprised by the result. I think that the electrical part change a lot : driving, switching level, rise and fall time. this may finally generate small timing violation...

I didn't remember well, but i think that the demo is this one (issue seen on an STE) :
http://www.atarimania.com/demo-atari-st ... 26530.html


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