Testing two CosmosEx units

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby Jookie » Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:27 am

DrCoolZic wrote:Cannot plug the ACSI connector when the FD connector is in place !!! :twisted:
The connector hood is apparently a 25 pin hood and on top of that it has been shifted on the wrong side so both wont fit.
I use Satan/Ultrasatan ACSI connectors for CosmosEx? Right ?


Yes, unfortunately I can't get enough DB 19 connectors and hoods, so I had to modify DB 25 to DB 19, which as a side effect has this possible issue of covering some other connector on ST.
The ACSI cables for SatanDisk / UltraSatan / CosmosEx are the same.

DrCoolZic wrote:System loads but motor stays on and cannot access either drive A or Drive B in all described configurations below
Ever tried CosmosEx floppy emulation + real FDrive ???


Strange. In some cases this can happen when the floppy cable is turned 180 degrees - when the plastic connector doesn't have the orientation 'thing' which would prevent the wrong insertion.
I never tried internal floppy with CosmosEx through the external floppy connector, have to check that.

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby DrCoolZic » Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:39 pm

Seems to be hard to get DSUB19 must be a lot of work to convert 24 pins to 19 pins :(

Already found a problem with the SF314 Control Board. Following it shows how connected
SF354TFCB.PNG

As you can see DS0 is connected to DS0 but DS1 is not connected. Therefore only Drive A can be connected and due to the fact that the internal FD is in place it also use DS0
So if I set CosmosEx to drive 1 it should not work because signal is not comming
This will be easy to fix just need to put a wire between DIN14 pin 6 and FD pin 12

However this does not explain why when CosmosEx floppy emulation is turned off the motor drive stay on and the internal FD cannot be accessed.
Normally if disabled all output should be TS?
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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby DrCoolZic » Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:05 pm

By the way you must be using the original Shugart interface

Code: Select all

Description       Name        FD Pinout    DIN 14
Index             INDEX       8            4
Device Select 0   DS0         10           5
Device Select 1   DS1         12           6
Motor on          MTRON       16           8
Direction         DIR         18           9
Step              STEP        20           10
Write Data        WDATA       22           11
Floppy Write En   WGATE       24           12
Track 0           TRK00       26           13
Write Protect     WPT         28           14
Read Data         RDATA       30           1
Head Select       SIDE1       32           3

And not the PC interface that uses DS0 & DS1 as well as Motor 0 & motor 1
?

Are all the output signal in TS when disabled?

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby DrCoolZic » Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:38 pm

I have looked at Atari 1040 STe schematic :


If the schematic is correct and if the W300 W301 straps are shown correctly we have
Atari FD connection.PNG


DS0 connected to pin 10 FD only
DS1 connected to pin 12 FD and to pin 5 DIN14 (DS0)
pin 6 DIN14 (DS1) connected to 1 logic ?

In this configuration DS0 select internal floppy and DS1 is converted to DS0 for external floppy. This explain probably why my external FD is seen as drive B

If the straps W300 and W301 are changed to opposite then DS0 & DS1 are same for internal external drive.
I need to open my Atari to see if this is true.

With described connection. It would mean that in order to access CosmosEx floppy emulator you have to set the config to
FD enabled
select 0
But from Atari this will be seen as drive & (drive B)

Now the problem of motor on.
look at my doc http://info-coach.fr/atari/documents/my ... LG-V10.pdf page 13. You will see that
Wait until the motor is turned off by the FDC (by checking status bit S7) before deselecting it. If the drive is deselected before the FDC has automatically turned off the MO the FDC will not receive the IP and the motor will stay on forever (not good idea for your floppies!).

Are you doing this?
If you deselect the drive immediately the motor will stay on forever.
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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby DrCoolZic » Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:19 pm

Now this is going pretty bad.

As I mentioned I have tried to read several FD in drive A and it did not work
So went to another system and for sanity check tried to read my floppy and guess what the floppy is now unreadble :( :mrgreen:
looked at another FD that I tested and unreadable also.

So looks like this configuration is afloppy killer :oops:

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby JimDrew » Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:03 pm

Are there 1K or lower pull-up resistors on ALL of the drive lines? If WREnable is not pulled up, the drive will write. The pull-ups are on the controller side, not the drive side, and they must always be there from power-on. You can't switch pull-ups on after power up with a disk in the drive or it will be written to, regardless if the disk is spinning or not - that bit position where the head is would be changed.
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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby DrCoolZic » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:24 am

JimDrew wrote:Are there 1K or lower pull-up resistors on ALL of the drive lines? If WREnable is not pulled up, the drive will write. The pull-ups are on the controller side, not the drive side, and they must always be there from power-on. You can't switch pull-ups on after power up with a disk in the drive or it will be written to, regardless if the disk is spinning or not - that bit position where the head is would be changed.

Just looked at the Atari 1040 STe schematics and no pull-up on WGATE
All input signals have a pull-up resistor but none of the output signals have one. They just have a 47 Ohms serial resistor at the output of an 7406 IC
Not sure it would be useful

What is strange is that all output signals should come from Atari so there should not be difference on these signals whether CosmosEx is connected or not (must be input on CE)
The only potential problem would be that if CE does not put its outputs (input for Atari) in TS mode then some signal like Index would not work and therefore motor would stat on.
But this does not explain why data on FD get destroyed?

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby DrCoolZic » Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:01 am

To be complete on the subject here is the schematic for 1040STF
1040STF-FD con.PNG


There is also a switch to select drive 0 or 1 on the external DIN14 connector.

So both on ST 1040 STF and on ST 1040 STe by DEFAULT the external drive is on DS1 (drive B)
If you change some strap on the motherboard it is possible to have the external drive on DS0 (drive A)

I just tested on an STE connecting an external drive and indeed it is drive B

Therefore in theory it should be possible to configure CosmosEx device with line 0 and to see it as drive B. However it does not work

I finally found the thread I was looking for :) :) :)
This explain how to reverse A and B drive viewtopic.php?f=99&t=18010&hilit=external+drive+A+B
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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby DrCoolZic » Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:11 am


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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby DrCoolZic » Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:45 pm

Jookie
Is there a schematic of CosmosEx to see signals on FD input/output

signals output by CosmosEx for example INDEX what type OC or TS?
only active if CE floppy emulation is enabled and DS signal match drive num in config?

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby JimDrew » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:23 pm

The 7406 is a hex inverter. This means that when the input is low, the output will be high. I suppose it's possible that they rely on the fact that the ST powers up with the control lines always low, which would force the outputs high. If for some reason that buffer is bad or the WG line goes high, the write gate would be enabled the head would definitely start outputting "something" on the write data line.
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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby DrCoolZic » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:04 am

Now a little bit of good news.
I have opened anSTE removed the floppy drive and replace it with CosmosEx + adding the IKBD injectors.
and all seems to work so far

However of course I cant close the Atari cover because I need to cut the upper cover to see/access CosmosEx and have a slot to route the ACSI cable.

First test indicates that I can access the FD emulator, and I have tested the mouse and the KB and screencast.
The floppy utility is a pain to use (GUI is really not nice) but seems to work as expected. So there is room for improvement. Would be nice to add a TSR control panel that would allow to add/change images even from running program.
Mouse works great. Improvement be able to change sensitivity.
Keyboard seems to works for basic characters, shifted characters, but characters accessible with alt do not work.

Screencast is really fun. From a browser you can move the cursor of your Atari and type characters... fun ... amazing :mrgreen:
However the characters are interpreted as if you had a QUERTY KB so need improvement.

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby Jookie » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:55 am

DrCoolZic wrote:signals output by CosmosEx for example INDEX what type OC or TS?
only active if CE floppy emulation is enabled and DS signal match drive num in config?


The outputs of the floppy emulating part are either directly from Franz and they should be all OC, or INDEX is generated by a OC NPN transistor... I still have to check this one, didn't had any time during the last few days for that.

DrCoolZic wrote:The floppy utility is a pain to use (GUI is really not nice) but seems to work as expected. So there is room for improvement.


All the tools and the whole SW and FW are open source, so anyone who doesn't like it and is able to do it, can remake them into nicer ones ;)

DrCoolZic wrote:Screencast is really fun. From a browser you can move the cursor of your Atari and type characters... fun ... amazing :mrgreen:


This shouldn't happen, but remote controll and screencast are still experimental there will be updates on this by tIn/absence.

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby DrCoolZic » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:46 am

Did you have time to look at the problem of connecting CosmosEx device on external DIN14 connector while still having internal FD?

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby Jookie » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:57 am

DrCoolZic wrote:Did you have time to look at the problem of connecting CosmosEx device on external DIN14 connector while still having internal FD?


No, as I wrote - didn't had the time during the last few days... (some family / child issues, and so on).

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby DrCoolZic » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:42 am

Jookie wrote:
DrCoolZic wrote:Did you have time to look at the problem of connecting CosmosEx device on external DIN14 connector while still having internal FD?


No, as I wrote - didn't had the time during the last few days... (some family / child issues, and so on).


No problem family is definitively more important. I hope everybody is fine now.

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby Jookie » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:13 am

DrCoolZic wrote:Did you have time to look at the problem of connecting CosmosEx device on external DIN14 connector while still having internal FD?


OK, I finally got it, and it works ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA26RjOToAE

I didn't have any DIN 14 connector around or any SF354 to reuse it's wiring, so I had to make the DIN 14 from scratch:
http://joo.kie.sk/cosmosex/ext_fdd_ugly.jpg

Yes, it's ugly, but it's enough for testing purposes. :) So my guess still is, that you're having the flat cable 180 degrees rotated (if that's possible) - that way you would connect all the GND wires to FDD signals, and that would explain the constant LED on and the floppy data being overwritten - but I could be wrong, so don't take my word for it ;)

I've tested it with 1040 STE, the floppy was selected as drive 0, while the internal STE configuration connects this to drive select 1, and that projects to drive B:

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby DrCoolZic » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:00 am

Thanks Jookie nice job.
I will check how the connection are done. What might be the problem is that I do not had the DIN14 to DIN14 cable that comes with the SF314 and therefore I have used the cable from my Discovery Cartridge. It might be that this cable invert the connection.

Thanks for the nice video

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:13 am

The way the cable of the SF314 control board has been done is very very strange.

You remember I had question about power supply pin-out to finally find out that red was 12V and blue 5V
For the 34 pin connector it is even more strange. This connector has a polarizing tab in the middle to ensure correct orientation when used with a shrouded header.
So I had no choice on how to plug it in CosmosEx but based on your input I have looked how pins where connected and ... the polarizing tab is on the wrong side??? and to add confusion pin 1 is usually indicated on the cable with a red strip but here it is pin 34 !!!

I have cut the polarizing tab with a cutter and plugged the connector upside down and .... it woks
P1070407-600.jpg


Note that I have used the ACSI cable I got with UltraSatan so I can plug the DIN14 connector.
So now works OK

As explained here http://info-coach.fr/atari/hardware/int ... _Connector by default pin 5 of the DIN14 connector is Drive Select 1 (drive B) but as this is connected to pin 10 of the 34 pin FD connector this imply that in CosmosEx FD setup ID = 0 has to be selected.
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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby Jookie » Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:58 am

DrCoolZic wrote:This connector has a polarizing tab in the middle to ensure correct orientation when used with a shrouded header.
So I had no choice on how to plug it in CosmosEx but based on your input I have looked how pins where connected and ... the polarizing tab is on the wrong side??? and to add confusion pin 1 is usually indicated on the cable with a red strip but here it is pin 34 !!!
I have cut the polarizing tab with a cutter and plugged the connector upside down and .... it woks


Nice ;) I thought that there will be no orientation thing, but they got it on the other side as where it usually should be and where the internal drive has it... Good to hear that you got it working.

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby DrCoolZic » Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:29 pm

New version of my CosmosEx user's guide available here viewtopic.php?f=103&t=26999&p=259234#p259234

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby DrCoolZic » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:35 am

Jookie I had a rather busy weekend doing hardware modifications around CosmosEx device.

I found that one of the system I was using for tests was very old (probably among early STE) with so called bad DMA. Even though everything seemed to work ok when doing tests I have decided to use another system more recent and with good DMA.
Therefore I have completely disassembled a STE system and decided to do two modifications so I can mount CosmosEx inside the system:
- First I have made modifications to be able to switch internal and external floppy drive selection lines using a toggle switch (not an easy one!).
- Second I have changed the TOS ROMs from 1.62 to 2.06. This involves changing the ROMs and some straps (actually resistors).

I have added memory to have 4MB and reassembled the system with the CosmosEx device mounted in place of the internal floppy drive. I have connected an external floppy drive and therefore I can now switch between this external drive and CosmosEx floppy emulation.

Question:
The latest modifications you have done to Hans are to be able to boot CE without reseting the Atari several times, right? I have tested this behavior with an external CE: I start the CE and wait for the ACSI LED to blink and only then I power the Atari system. It seems that if I follow this sequence I am able to start the Atari system without problem.
However when the system is mounted internally using the Atari power supply you have no other choice than starting everything at the same time. Therefore when the Atari boot the CE is not yet ready and therefore does not “boot” from it and you MUST hit reset. I do not see any way to change this behavior?

Now here are my problems that seems to be related to TOS 2.06?
I have partitioned an SD card with PPDRIVER into 4 TOS&DOS partitions and made it bootable. I use the following configuration ID0=SD ID1=TRAN all other off (and use USB as TRAN). This configuration and SD card works great on my previous tests.
1) Normally the system boot from the SD card loads the PPDRIVER and as PPD does not block the boot loader chain the CE_DD driver is loaded after. With my new system the PPD driver loads but not the CE_DD?
2) I removed the SD card. This force the CE device to load the CE_DD and mount the drive O (ID1=TRAN). This is what is happening but at the end (after displaying mounting drive O) the Atari system crashes with 4 bombs?
3) So I put back the SD card and let system boot with only PPD. At this point if I start CE_DD driver it loads correctly and seems to work. The same happen if I put CE_DD.PRG in AUTO folder?
4) I need more tests but it seems that if I set the CE floppy emulator as drive A, I am getting strange behavior but if I have it as drive B it works OK. But I am not familiar with TOS 2.06 and I am not sure about expected behavior during boot?

To summarize
CE_DD bombs if loaded immediately.
Loader boot chain not working (problem with TOS 2.06?) but CE_DD loads correctly.

I am now thinking of re disassemble the system again and put back 1.62 but this is a pain and I suppose that CosmosEx should work with 2.06?

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby Jookie » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:40 am

DrCoolZic wrote:However when the system is mounted internally using the Atari power supply you have no other choice than starting everything at the same time. Therefore when the Atari boot the CE is not yet ready and therefore does not “boot” from it and you MUST hit reset. I do not see any way to change this behavior?


Yes, this can't be fixed - you have to wait until CosmosEx becomes operational and then you have to reset the machine (or if you have the RAM self test and hard drive spin up delay with TOS 2.0x, that could do the trick).

DrCoolZic wrote:2) I removed the SD card. This force the CE device to load the CE_DD and mount the drive O (ID1=TRAN). This is what is happening but at the end (after displaying mounting drive O) the Atari system crashes with 4 bombs?


And yes, this has been observed, and needs to be fixed. I don't see it at my place, but people have reported this issue, photos included...

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby DrCoolZic » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:54 am

Jookie wrote:
DrCoolZic wrote:2) I removed the SD card. This force the CE device to load the CE_DD and mount the drive O (ID1=TRAN). This is what is happening but at the end (after displaying mounting drive O) the Atari system crashes with 4 bombs?
And yes, this has been observed, and needs to be fixed. I don't see it at my place, but people have reported this issue, photos included...

Always with 2.06?

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Re: Testing two CosmosEx units

Postby Jookie » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:37 am

DrCoolZic wrote:Always with 2.06?


Not always... There's a similar issue displayed here: http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=26735&p=255678#p255567


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