CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

News, questions and bugs reports about CosmosEx by Jookie. Now we have a Raspberry Pi in our machines!

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby Jookie » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:18 am

charles wrote:can you have "non-destructive" file deletes...like windows i guess ,,
where if you delete a file it can be reverseved


Yes, this could be added, but only when using translated driver; the version for native mode (with HDDRIVER or ICD Pro) would have to be done elsewhere (either in the driver it self, or in TOS).

charles wrote:then when you shut down the system a alert box
" files erased will | be permanitily deleted unless| re-saved.. [ok]?"


This is a tricky part - you would have to run some utility or accessory before shutdown to do this, but I guess most of the people just flip the power switch and there's nothing more to be done. On the other side, when deleting the files could be just marked as 'in trash', and you would have to run a tool to delete them or to restore them. I'm not sure if this is what most people want, but this option could be turned on or off, so everybody could have it the way he wants.

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby DrCoolZic » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:48 pm

As usual excellent project Jookie :)

Registered :mrgreen:

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby Jookie » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:17 am

I just did some bechmarks and I got ~ 1.1 MB/s from USB flash drives under plain TOS, see more here:
http://joo.kie.sk/?page_id=400

This means that the interface is capable of this data throughput, I guess that in translated mode it will be more or less the same, and we could theoretically achieve almost the same with the network speed ;) I will test more media later and I'll test the translated mode too...

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby Zamuel_a » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:32 pm

could this be used for some kind of cross development? So a USB cable is connected between it and a PC and when a simple way of transfer a file. This would ofcourse need a C compiler on the PC that can output Atari programs, which might not exist? If there is any, it had been great if there was a simple way to transfer it so it can be started directly from the Atari without a more tedious copy transfer file way.
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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby Cyprian » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:06 pm

Zamuel_a wrote:could this be used for some kind of cross development? So a USB cable is connected between it and a PC and when a simple way of transfer a file.


+1
Jaugar / TT030 / Mega STe / 800 XL / 1040 STe / Falcon030 / 65 XE / 520 STm / SM124 / SC1435
SDrive / PAK68/3 / CosmosEx / SatanDisk / UltraSatan / USB Floppy Drive Emulator / Eiffel / SIO2PC / Crazy Dots / PAM Net
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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby Jookie » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:34 pm

Zamuel_a wrote:could this be used for some kind of cross development? So a USB cable is connected between it and a PC and when a simple way of transfer a file.


How about sharing a folder through network from Windows or Linux (samba or nfs) and then seeing it on your ST as a drive letter (e.g. 'N') on a plain TOS? This is possible with the translated driver of CosmosEx, no STiNG or anything else needed.

Zamuel_a wrote:This would ofcourse need a C compiler on the PC that can output Atari programs, which might not exist?


I'm cross-compiling the ST software from Windows using this, this is what you want :)
http://vincent.riviere.free.fr/soft/m68k-atari-mint/

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby dhedberg » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:21 pm

Zamuel_a wrote:could this be used for some kind of cross development? So a USB cable is connected between it and a PC and when a simple way of transfer a file. This would ofcourse need a C compiler on the PC that can output Atari programs, which might not exist? If there is any, it had been great if there was a simple way to transfer it so it can be started directly from the Atari without a more tedious copy transfer file way.

Great idea! I use the VBCC C cross-compiler and the VASM cross-assembler (Devpac compatible) on my Windows machine. Works like a charm!
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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby Cyprian » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:35 pm

Jookie wrote:
Zamuel_a wrote:could this be used for some kind of cross development? So a USB cable is connected between it and a PC and when a simple way of transfer a file.


How about sharing a folder through network from Windows or Linux (samba or nfs) and then seeing it on your ST as a drive letter (e.g. 'N') on a plain TOS? This is possible with the translated driver of CosmosEx, no STiNG or anything else needed.


this is what I'm looking for a few years
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SDrive / PAK68/3 / CosmosEx / SatanDisk / UltraSatan / USB Floppy Drive Emulator / Eiffel / SIO2PC / Crazy Dots / PAM Net
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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby rocket-dog » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:55 pm

Finally something I can use that blessed RPi for........... :mrgreen:

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby rocket-dog » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:44 pm

Jookie wrote:
simonsunnyboy wrote: For ACSI connection you will need ACSI cable (the same as for SatanDisk or UltraSatan), this will be included in the package.
For floppy connection when using device inside of ST case you don't need anything, just plug out original floppy and plug in CosmosEx, so nothing is needed.


That is power too then? And will it be loose within the ST? Do you suggest the manufacture of some mounting plate?

EDIT: Can I run with it my UltraSATAN? Or will I be forced to get another ST? :mrgreen:

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby simonsunnyboy » Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:19 am

Jookie wrote:
Zamuel_a wrote:could this be used for some kind of cross development? So a USB cable is connected between it and a PC and when a simple way of transfer a file.


How about sharing a folder through network from Windows or Linux (samba or nfs) and then seeing it on your ST as a drive letter (e.g. 'N') on a plain TOS? This is possible with the translated driver of CosmosEx, no STiNG or anything else needed.


This is a great idea, esp if on the Atari side no additional drivers and stacks are needed. In that case even a 1MB mchine begins to make sense. Full STING and a harddisk driver render a 1MB ST basically as useless as a 512K machine.
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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby Jookie » Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:20 pm

rocket-dog wrote:That is power too then? And will it be loose within the ST? Do you suggest the manufacture of some mounting plate?


If you put it inside of your ST, you could use the power supply cable from the original floppy, although I'm not sure how the old power supply will handle the new load (but you still can change the power supply in case it doesn't handle the new load very well). I guess that from outside most of the people will use an extra power supply.

When mounted inside of ST it won't be loose and you won't need any mounting plate - it has holes with screw threads at the same position as the original floppy, so you just take the original floppy out and use the same screws to mount CosmosEx at the same place.

rocket-dog wrote:Can I run with it my UltraSATAN? Or will I be forced to get another ST? :mrgreen:


You should be able to run it with UltaSatan together on ACSI bus, but I will have to test it (and fix it if it isn't so).

simonsunnyboy wrote:This is a great idea, esp if on the Atari side no additional drivers and stacks are needed. In that case even a 1MB machine begins to make sense. Full STING and a harddisk driver render a 1MB ST basically as useless as a 512K machine.


Yes, this is exactly the reason to have this translated mode and translated driver - to be able to do stuff in good speed and low RAM usage which wouldn't be possible with a plain TOS machine, if everything would be done directly on it; this way we can let Raspberry Pi to handle all the protocols, network and so on, as it has enough RAM and CPU speed.

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby rocket-dog » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:17 pm

Jookie wrote:[
If you put it inside of your ST, you could use the power supply cable from the original floppy, although I'm not sure how the old power supply will handle the new load (but you still can change the power supply in case it doesn't handle the new load very well). I guess that from outside most of the people will use an extra power supply.



Thank you. Mine will live outside the ST. They are standard floppy cables aren't they if I need an extension?

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby dml » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:56 pm

Cyprian wrote:
Jookie wrote:
Zamuel_a wrote:could this be used for some kind of cross development? So a USB cable is connected between it and a PC and when a simple way of transfer a file.


How about sharing a folder through network from Windows or Linux (samba or nfs) and then seeing it on your ST as a drive letter (e.g. 'N') on a plain TOS? This is possible with the translated driver of CosmosEx, no STiNG or anything else needed.


this is what I'm looking for a few years


Yes, this would be ideal for testing cross-compiled programs. I currently use a HxC floppy emulator for that, and it works fine for most things, but is not bidirectional and there is a restrictive limit on the size of the shared filesystem (I was unable to get any of the formats > 1.68mb to read reliably on a Falcon).

Some other people are using serial connection with some other pros/cons. Still it's limiting.

Mounting a filesystem from a remote machine and having it visible on an Atari as a driveletter = perfect :-)

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby Jookie » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:14 am

rocket-dog wrote:They are standard floppy cables aren't they if I need an extension?


The floppy connector on CosmosEx is a standard floppy connector, with the internal floppy cable directly pluggable in that connector. If you want to use it from outside, you either have to make some sort of extension from the inner cable, or use some convertor to use it with the external floppy connector on ST.

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby DrCoolZic » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:16 am

Jookie as usual you are developing a very nice new device. From what I understand the development is already well underway but I would like to share some thoughts about this project.
I will cover the use model, the packaging, and the cable and connection.

Use Model
  • From what I understand the main usage is a HD replacement similar to Satan/UltraSatan, but much better, offering to define partitions from USB stick or network share. For this I believe that you know better than anyone what to do. Presumably the device will be configurable from a Web page or from the Atari. Related to that there was request for cross development through PC connected to USB. From what I understand you will provide this capability with the network connection, but I guess you could also develop an application that would share partitions on the PC HDs through the USB connection (although I am not sure it is very useful).
  • Second usage is Floppy drive replacement. In that case what people are looking for is something that can either replace the existing floppy drive or better complement the existing floppy drive. You want to be able to still load floppies that you own or to emulate floppies for which you only have images (hopefully supporting the following formats; st, msa, dim, stt, stx, ipf …). The use model of being able to use a floppy drive and/or CosmosEx as a replacement has big implication in packaging and cables as describe below.
  • Possible use model extension: Being able to directly create images of floppy disks with CosmosEx. In this situation CosmosEx would be connected to the Atari and to a floppy drive and would allow: to use the floppy drive from the Atari, or to replace the floppy drive of the Atari, or to create image from floppy drive. Of course this has implication on packaging and cables.
Packaging
Looking at picture it seems that the current device has the size and shape of an internal 3.5 floppy drive. This sound great but here are some problems.
  • If you use it inside the Atari to replace the floppy drive it will be very difficult to connect the ACSI bus which is the main feature of CosmosEx.
  • If you use it externally you will have the problem of connection of the floppy drive but more important the drive will be considered as a secondary drive unless you modify the Atari to add a switch that invert the primary and secondary drives.
  • If you consider the different use models, presented above, an alternate package (obviously more expensive) would be to provide a box that could contain the CosmosEx device as well as a floppy drive in some sort of 3.5 HDD cage. This package would be connected to the Atari with the ACSI and FD din14 connector.
Connectors
  • The first connectors is the ACSI connector. Apparently this is the same cable as for Satan/UltraSatan. Nothing to say other than the currently provided cables are ugly! Why not use real DB19 connectors like here http://www.connectworld.net/ccc/DB19FS- ... ctors.html - http://www.hello-cables.com/db19-connectors.html - http://ssl.conector.fr/html/produit.pht ... UB-D+MALES ... It is more work but it would be much nicer …
  • The second connector is for Floppy connection.
    + If placed internally to replace the existing drive then it is easy just plug the internal cable to CosmosEx. But as mention in that case connecting the ACSI will be hard.
    + If placed externally you will need a cable with a DIN14 like this http://www.amabilidade2002.com/plugsjacks30.htm (unfortunately sold by 50 – good reason to group orders). In theory theDIN14 has all required signals http://info-coach.fr/atari/hardware/int ... _INTERFACE In practice I believe there could be some problem on early ST as not all signals are connected.
    + In the case of a packaging that contains the CosmosEx as well as a floppy drive it should be feasible to access either one through the Din14 connector and to add a switch to place either one as the “primary” drive. In this case the internal drive should be dismounted. Some testing would need to be done to check that two external “drives” can be used in ST/STe. I am not sure that the last use model to allow the CosmosEx to access the drive for imaging it is feasible?
  • Power supply: Only 5v is required. In case where the CosmosEx is used internally to replace the floppy drive then no problem the connector is directly connected to the Atari. In all other cases using so called berg 4 pin connector (also improperly referred as mini-Molex) is a pain as no external power supply directly provides this kind of connectors. Therefore it would be nice to also provide somewhere on CosmosEx board a “standard” 5v tip connector.

Voila ... I don't want to disrupt the development but may be some ideas presented here could be included ...

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby Jookie » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:09 am

Hello,

you're right about the issues of connecting the ACSI cable from inside or floppy cable from outside, but there's not much I can do about it, you'll just have to improvise. Using that 14-pin connector to connect the floppy from outside is OK...

What you don't like about the SatanDisk / UltraSatan ACSI cable, that is being used in this device? The cables we sold with UltraSatan had these 19-pin connectors as you mentioned and they go to ACSI port while still having the flat ribbon cable and connector going to the device.

The power to the device can be connected through the 4-pin connector when used internally, or using mini USB connector when used externally:
Image

I guess that having mini USB connector is better than having round power supply - you can buy a cheap USB charger and use it...

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby DrCoolZic » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:14 am

Did not know about the mini-usb connector. This is perfect
For what I describe most can be done externally so I guess I will have to experiment for the floppy connection.

Still not answered will it be possible to connect CosmosEx to floppy drive for imaging?

Anyone working experience in connecting two external floppy drive?

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby Jookie » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:28 pm

DrCoolZic wrote:Still not answered will it be possible to connect CosmosEx to floppy drive for imaging?


I'm not completely sure what do you mean by that, but if you mean that CosmosEx would directly sample the stream from the other (real) floppy and store that stream to image without ST intervention, then this is not what is was planned to do, although it could be possible after some changes...

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby DrCoolZic » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:53 pm

Jookie wrote:
DrCoolZic wrote:Still not answered will it be possible to connect CosmosEx to floppy drive for imaging?


I'm not completely sure what do you mean by that, but if you mean that CosmosEx would directly sample the stream from the other (real) floppy and store that stream to image without ST intervention, then this is not what is was planned to do, although it could be possible after some changes...

Yes this is what I mean. Would be equivalent to KryoFlux or SuperCard Pro device. To do that you would need first that CosmosEx can read and write on the floppy data lines + some FW + some SW on the Rasberry Pi

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby Jookie » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:25 pm

DrCoolZic wrote:Yes this is what I mean. Would be equivalent to KryoFlux or SuperCard Pro device. To do that you would need first that CosmosEx can read and write on the floppy data lines + some FW + some SW on the Rasberry Pi


Well he does read and write on the data lines, as he emulates an ordinary floppy which does that too ;) The question now is - who would command the switching of the currently read track on the original floppy? If ST, then this is easy (ST would just say read track 0, 1, 2, 3, ... and CosmosEx would only capture the data); if this should be done from CosmosEx, it would need more changes (this would collide with ST trying to control the lines).

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby DrCoolZic » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:44 pm

Jookie wrote:Well he does read and write on the data lines, as he emulates an ordinary floppy which does that too ;) The question now is - who would command the switching of the currently read track on the original floppy? If ST, then this is easy (ST would just say read track 0, 1, 2, 3, ... and CosmosEx would only capture the data); if this should be done from CosmosEx, it would need more changes (this would collide with ST trying to control the lines).

Do not know enough about you HW to answer that.
It could be that from ST you would place the CosmosEx in sampling mode, samples the data into CosmosEx memory? and terminate imaging by reading image content from CosmosEx or
could completely be commanded from RBp while asking user not to do anything with ST floppy?
The idea is to put the CosmosEx as a floppy emulator responding to ST request for floppy 1 or as a floppy imager where CosmosEx would send commands to floppy disk 2 to deliver data and sampling this data (this would require ST to be still).

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby nativ » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:48 pm

DrCoolZic wrote:

Anyone working experience in connecting two external floppy drive?



I was just wondering this, connecting to ASCI and external drive, would you need a software patch or hardware switch to make 'B' seen as 'A:' ?


Also I am still keen on the idea of having an internal 'micro SD'? or SD ability , I just like the idea of having my much needed software in the box in a safe place, rather than on a loose USB key.

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby DrCoolZic » Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:12 pm

nativ wrote:I was just wondering this, connecting to ASCI and external drive, would you need a software patch or hardware switch to make 'B' seen as 'A:' ?

I guess that if you want to keep the internal disk and be able to switch drive 0 and 1 (so you can boot from external drive) then you need a switch something like http://www.septicsurgeon.net/Hardware_M ... n_STE.html

However if you remove the internal disk and use CosmosEx as drive 0 and another external drive as drive 1 it should be possible that it works as the signals are present on the Din14

see also viewtopic.php?f=15&t=26143&p=247576&hilit=drive+a%2Fb+switch#p247568
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25278&p=234451&hilit=switch+drive#p234451

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Re: CosmosEx - new device for your Atari ST

Postby Jookie » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:59 pm

DrCoolZic wrote:It could be that from ST you would place the CosmosEx in sampling mode, samples the data into CosmosEx memory? and terminate imaging by reading image content from CosmosEx or could completely be commanded from RBp while asking user not to do anything with ST floppy?
The idea is to put the CosmosEx as a floppy emulator responding to ST request for floppy 1 or as a floppy imager where CosmosEx would send commands to floppy disk 2 to deliver data and sampling this data (this would require ST to be still).


As I wrote - the easy way to do it would be to run a simple application on ST, which would tell CosmosEx to start sampling, and then the ST would just tell the floppy to move to track 0 and wait a little, then move to next track and so on. Storing of image directly through CosmosEx or reading the image back to ST which would then store it is just a technical detail then. This way the ST would still be in command of the floppy and requires very little changes in CosmosEx.

Btw., I just tested the translated driver under plain TOS on my ST, and I got read speed of ~ 1.0 MB/s from a USB flash drive, and read speed of 0.9 MB/s from my Windows PC - through network using samba (Windows Sharing). No STiNG or MiNT needed ;)


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