SCP disk images !

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:17 am

Two things:

First the KF image of les Aventures de Moktar has a problem on track 73.1: the reading is marginal and read correctly only on some revolutions but is bad on others.
As described here viewtopic.php?f=102&t=25854&start=525#p263701
you can select the "good revolution" before you save the STX file

About what you have done for Titus the Fox.
Les aventures de Moktar uses the following protections on track 79.0: Data over index, invalid sector number 247, CRC Error, and Fuzzy bits
The fuzzy bits are probably not on purpose and probably not tested. The CRC error comes from the fact that the wrapped sector is truncated.
All this information can be saved without problem in stx format: for last sector position, sect num, CRC error
remove the original files and replace them with Titus the Fox files from an STX image

I suppose you did this with the Disk Browser?
I am not enough familiar with HxC but I do not see the interest? If you remove the files, you removes the Layout?

I think that just reading the stx file and writing it back with HxC in SCP format should work without involving the load of the other game. HxC has all the required information in the STX file to produce an SCP file.
This cannot be called preservation but should be good enough to play.

Actually I am glad to here that HxC can perform this kind of operation, because this is also something I am working on in Aufit.
I have been told once that it is not possible to write back a "preserved disk" from STX because lots of information are lost...
In theory this is true, but based on the fact that there is a limited number of protections used on Atari games it should be possible to detect the protection patterns used on the disk (Like the CTA analyzer of SPS does to create IPF file) and to recreate a perfect "master" from that. This wont work for all disk but should be fine for a large number of disks.
For example suppose you detect a macrodos / speedlock pattern and that your image is no so good. In that case the measured timing are probably not be same as original. But once detected it is possible to recreate a sector with the perfect macrodos timing. Other example in the provided image of the Adventure of Moktar track 73.1 is relatively bad with bits "spread" a lot from nominal bands. With the described technique it would be possible to rewrite this track with perfect "bit-width" ...

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:21 am

I actually looked at the images from the two games and the location of the last sectors do not seems to be the same (as expected)
on the first the last sector is located at about 193ms from start and on second at about 193.6ms
Close enough to work in both cases but definitively not the same. So info from first image are gone in the second.

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:26 am

Here are the diagrams for the two games
Aventures of Moktar.png

Titus the fox.png


The marginal track with CRC error
marginal track.png


Use data from revolution one to write a good stx file (no CRC error)
marginal read correctly.png
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby Jeff_HxC2001 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:39 am

DrCoolZic wrote:I actually looked at the images from the two games and the location of the last sectors do not seems to be the same (as expected)
on the first the last sector is located at about 193ms from start and on second at about 193.6ms
Close enough to work in both cases but definitively not the same. So info from first image are gone in the second.


All floppy tracks RPM are corrected by the analyser to make their duration equal, so the global bitrate may change if you compare it with raw stream, and then the absolute/raw sector position may change a little, but the relative sector to sector position between tracks and side is corrected too.

So no, there is no info gone here ;)
(apart all the dump noise, but this is a wanted feature ;) )

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby Jeff_HxC2001 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:58 am

DrCoolZic wrote:Two things:
About what you have done for Titus the Fox.
Les aventures de Moktar uses the following protections on track 79.0: Data over index, invalid sector number 247, CRC Error, and Fuzzy bits
The fuzzy bits are probably not on purpose and probably not tested.


This is just the track write splice.

DrCoolZic wrote:
remove the original files and replace them with Titus the Fox files from an STX image

I suppose you did this with the Disk Browser?
I am not enough familiar with HxC but I do not see the interest? If you remove the files, you removes the Layout?


No, all the layout is preserved with the HxC software. Even the bitrate / sector lenght is not modified by this operation.
For example the library is able to write on the Rob Northen sector without changing its duration.

BTW, funny message into the protection sectors of the Titus disks:

Code: Select all

A001prot by Eric CAEN (c) Titus 1991...Hackers, I hate you !!!!

Hackers are women !!!


After googling a little Eric CAEN, it appears that he was one of the Titus creator.

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby Stefan jL » Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:46 pm

So Eric hates women?
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby dlfrsilver » Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:52 pm

Stefan jL wrote:So Eric hates women?


hem no. This is a bad translation. He is saying that hackers are "faggots" (insulting way).
Now SPS France representative since the 19th of June 2014. Proud to be an SPS member !

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby Jeff_HxC2001 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:11 pm

DrCoolZic wrote:Two things:

First the KF image of les Aventures de Moktar has a problem on track 73.1: the reading is marginal and read correctly only on some revolutions but is bad on others.
As described here viewtopic.php?f=102&t=25854&start=525#p263701
you can select the "good revolution" before you save the STX file


Here is the STX file generated from the SCP file with the HxC Floppy Emulator :

http://hxc2001.com/disks_analysis/disks ... TE_scp.stx

The software have automatically selected the good revolution for the track 73.1.

Tested under Steem without problem.

The STX writer still young and basic, but its features support is enough for this game.

Here is the latest version :
http://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_driv ... t_beta.zip

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby Jeff_HxC2001 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:22 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:
Stefan jL wrote:So Eric hates women?


hem no. This is a bad translation. He is saying that hackers are "faggots" (insulting way).


Sure that the Rob Northen's signature is more "professional" :

Rob_Northen.png
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby Jeff_HxC2001 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:40 pm

DrCoolZic wrote:I actually looked at the images from the two games and the location of the last sectors do not seems to be the same (as expected)
on the first the last sector is located at about 193ms from start and on second at about 193.6ms
Close enough to work in both cases but definitively not the same. So info from first image are gone in the second.


Mhh wait : I tried this :
- Load "Les aventures de Moktar (Titus) (1991) (Double Face ATARI ST-STE).scp" into the latest HxC software.
- Export/Create an new scp file "Les aventures de Moktar (Titus) (1991) (Double Face ATARI ST-STE).scp"
- Start 2 Aufit 4C instances and compare both files.

The sectors have the same timing position :

Image4.png


So i am not sure what images you have compared.
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:19 am

I am still unclear by what has been done by Kodak80
based on your last feedback I assume that he
- read "Les Aventures De Moktar" in SCP format in an instance of HxC
- read "Titus the Fox" in stx format on another instance of HxC
- extracted the content of "Titus the Fox" using the Disk Browser ???
- injected this content in "Les avantures de Moktar" ???
- saved the modified "Les avantures de Moktar" under the name "Titus the Fox" using SCP format?

If this is what has been done it is smart but I do not understand what it is necessary? With the protections used it should be sufficient to read the stx file of "Titus the Fox" and directly write the SCP file?

If I interpret correctly what you said it is possible to keep the "layout/timing" info from a track/sectors read and to replace the "data" content of track/sectors?

So i am not sure what images you have compared.

I have compared the AventureMoktar KF raw format with TitustheFox-ToMarrakech&Back(SCP Advntures Disk with STX contents copied).scp

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby Avanze » Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:16 pm

Sorry to jump in, but I was wondering, which is the best utility (aufit or hxcfloppyemulator) for converting SCP images to the STX format?

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:23 pm

kodak80 wrote:and here is Atari Classic Arcade Disk (also tested back to floppy and working):

ftp://retrobackup.com/SCP/Atari%20ST/%5 ... reakout.7z


For Your Information after analysis with new Aufit it seems that this is not an original.
From what I can tell the disk has been duplicated (but not on an Atari :) )
Even though it works ;)

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby kodak80 » Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:15 am

DrCoolZic wrote:I am still unclear by what has been done by Kodak80
based on your last feedback I assume that he
- read "Les Aventures De Moktar" in SCP format in an instance of HxC
- read "Titus the Fox" in stx format on another instance of HxC
- extracted the content of "Titus the Fox" using the Disk Browser ???
- injected this content in "Les avantures de Moktar" ???
- saved the modified "Les avantures de Moktar" under the name "Titus the Fox" using SCP format?

If this is what has been done it is smart but I do not understand what it is necessary? With the protections used it should be sufficient to read the stx file of "Titus the Fox" and directly write the SCP file?

If I interpret correctly what you said it is possible to keep the "layout/timing" info from a track/sectors read and to replace the "data" content of track/sectors?

So i am not sure what images you have compared.

I have compared the AventureMoktar KF raw format with TitustheFox-ToMarrakech&Back(SCP Advntures Disk with STX contents copied).scp


The process was as DrCoolZic has listed above. I did it as I was unable to convert the STX to a workable SCP format that would then work on a real floppy disk. At least it didn't work when I tried it. There have been a couple of new versions of the HxC Emulator software since I tried converting the STX to SCP.
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby kodak80 » Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:16 am

DrCoolZic wrote:
kodak80 wrote:and here is Atari Classic Arcade Disk (also tested back to floppy and working):

ftp://retrobackup.com/SCP/Atari%20ST/%5 ... reakout.7z


For Your Information after analysis with new Aufit it seems that this is not an original.
From what I can tell the disk has been duplicated (but not on an Atari :) )
Even though it works ;)


I got this disk in a batch of disks from eBay. I thought the label looked a bit clean and new. Good to know though. I would be interested in how you can tell that it is not an original?
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:14 pm

I am experimenting new tests with my new version of Aufit. In this disk I have found several write splices (can be displayed in my prototype) that make me think that it is not an original.

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby JimDrew » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:09 am

If data can be written to the disk (like game save info), then you will have extra write splices - one for each sector. If this is not one of those types of disks, you really should only have a single write splice, typically right around the index mark.
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby Jeff_HxC2001 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:08 am

JimDrew wrote:If data can be written to the disk (like game save info), then you will have extra write splices - one for each sector. If this is not one of those types of disks, you really should only have a single write splice, typically right around the index mark.


Unfortunately, some disks was commercially duplicated with the sector write splices on some systems...

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby JimDrew » Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:08 pm

Yes, that is true for C64 disks. I know that the million+ disks that I had reproduced were done by using masters that were created on a 1541 drive. I just looked at some of my masters and commercial disks (still have every master disk for everything I ever produced). The write splices for each written sector are definitely there. Empty tracks have a single write splice because I used a fast format routine that built the track in the Supercard+'s 8K RAM and wrote it one pass. So, there is no doubt that the Mountain duplicators (which became Trace) just spooled the flux data to a buffer for duplication.
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby Stefan jL » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:24 pm

Here is SCP copies of A.M.C... disk two seems to fail on my Atari at the level when you are asked to change disk, although entering a levelcode that is after taht point works fine when loading from disk 2.
When making an STX with Aufit so does Steem sse behave just like my Atari and steem's track number is showing 9 and 10 when it get stuck (disk 2).
http://www.ym2149.com/scp/amc_scp_rev5.7z

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:48 pm

Stefan jL wrote:Here is SCP copies of A.M.C... disk two seems to fail on my Atari at the level when you are asked to change disk, although entering a levelcode that is after taht point works fine when loading from disk 2.
When making an STX with Aufit so does Steem sse behave just like my Atari and steem's track number is showing 9 and 10 when it get stuck (disk 2).
http://www.ym2149.com/scp/amc_scp_rev5.7z

I will get into more detail about the protection on this game but as I told you I suspect that track 10.0 of disk 2 is corrupted.
Tracks 0-7 have 10 sectors + 1 sector with no data
Tracks 8-73 have 10 sectors + 1 truncated sector that wrap to next revolution with fuzzy bytes and CRC error.

On track 10 we can see the sync bytes for the first data segment but the id field is totally gone not a single sync byte and no IAM ????
This does not seems right. I cant say for sure but it seems that the first few bytes of the track are not correct. This is not a problem of sampling because you have sampled 5 rev and the bits are not there on the second rev either.

But I have another question: Do you know if this disk is an original? I will explain why later but I think this disk has been copied on an Atari and not created on a mastering machine?
I also found that the tracks on side are definitively not Atari tracks but probably have some data and strange TWO (not three) sync marks sequence. I just modified Aufit to display this on the disk view ...

Would be interesting if someone have the same game to create image.

more on this game later .....

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby Stefan jL » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:18 pm

ok.. so disk 2 is corrupt then.
I bought this game second hand so i have no idea if anyone has copied data to the original disk :) It has an original Dinamic disk label.
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:37 pm

Looking STX image of second floppy (from Atarimania) - which is 100% OK, since I recently used it for hard disk and floppy versions, what I played through until end without problems - and there track 10 is same as others, it is sure that you have damaged, corrupted copy.
Copy prot. is on track 79 of first floppy - plenty of sector IDs .
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:20 pm

One question to DrCoolZic, related with possible bad data: what are chances to detect overwritten sector on original floppy ? So, format is intact, only some sector(s) content is changed. I guess that it is possible to see on floppies which were written in single pass by duplicator, so without formatting first. But, if it is done in way as some home computer does - first format, then write sectors, then not likely .. ?
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:57 am

AtariZoll wrote:One question to DrCoolZic, related with possible bad data: what are chances to detect overwritten sector on original floppy ? So, format is intact, only some sector(s) content is changed. I guess that it is possible to see on floppies which were written in single pass by duplicator, so without formatting first. But, if it is done in way as some home computer does - first format, then write sectors, then not likely .. ?

see answer here viewtopic.php?f=104&t=25906&p=267469#p267469


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